On a point of information, how long is the discussion on the Employment Premium Bill going on for?
Business of Dáil.
I am informed that we must finish this and go back to the Wealth Tax Bill before 10.15 p.m.
We must finish this before 10.15 p.m. or what is the position? There is a lot in this Bill that we might be able to tease out and give the Minister an opportunity of replying.
Acting Chairman
The position is that this Bill is to go through but there is not a guillotine on it. There is a guillotine on the Wealth Tax Bill at 10.15 p.m. What is certain is that we go to the Wealth Tax Bill at 10.15 p.m. What is uncertain is by what time we finish this Bill. That depends on the Minister and the House.
With Deputy Fitzgerald's powers of repetition we will be here until 10.15 p.m.
With the Minister's newly adopted line of silence I feel sure he would have liked to have been out of here three quarters of an hour ago.
I have been in the Seanad all day. I have no objection.
Acting Chairman
There is a clear understanding that irrespective of what the House does in respect of this Bill the House must sustain the guillotine on the Wealth Tax Bill at 10.15 p.m. If this Bill is not passed before then, it remains unpassed until we come back again. Perhaps the Government Whip has something to add to that.
I should like, for the information of the House, to explain my understanding of the arrangement. The Order of Business this morning said this Bill would come back from the Seanad with amendments and would occupy from 6 p.m. until 7.30 p.m. That was subject to agreement with the Government Whips. I had several amicable conversations with the Opposition Whips today but we have not, in fact, reached any agreement with regard to this Bill. It is understood that any extra time this Bill takes will be so much time carved out of the Wealth Tax Bill. That is understood by the Opposition Whips. I hope it will be possible to finish this Bill without leaving anyone short of time and get back to the Wealth Tax Bill before long. I do not want to give anyone the impression that this Bill is being artificially shortened.
As days go by one gets more and more confused about what is happening. Has it come to the stage now that we do not know whether we are finishing at 7.30 or 10.15 p.m.? Is it because we are going into such a long drawn out Recess in a time of crisis that there is a holiday atmosphere in the Government side?
In regard to the Recess, the shortest amount of research by any commentator, publicist or journalist will show that the Recess announced this morning is shorter than the average Recess has been, and substantially shorter than some Recesses have been even in the best days of the former Government. Leaving that point aside in order to make things clear for Deputy Fitzgerald and his colleagues, the point is that we are obliged to make time in the ordinary evening break for the Employment Premium Bill back from the Seanad. We allocated 1½ hours for it hoping that would be enough. If it is not enough, the Bill is not subject either to a guillotine or to an agreement and the Government will move between now and 8.30 p.m. for a late sitting if either side of the House wishes that. That will be done.
There is no possible way anybody can shorten this Bill either by agreement or otherwise. The Wealth Tax Bill is subject to the order of the Dáil made on 9th July and irrespective of what may happen to this Bill that will come to an end, assuming all goes well, between 10 p.m. and 10.30 p.m. this evening. I say that in order to remove any misapprehension there may have been. The order made this morning was subject to the Whips agreement. I had amicable conversations with the Opposition Whip but we did not come to any agreement, merely an expression of hope that the provisions now before the Dáil would be disposed of fairly rapidly.
Acting Chairman
Does that make it clear to Deputies that it lies in the power of the Deputies to discuss this Bill until 10.15 p.m. if they so wish. As far as we know that would mean that this Bill would not be finished until we meet again in October unless there is a late sitting. What is certain is that the guillotine will come on at 10.15 p.m. on the Wealth Tax Bill.
It seems that the problem is arising because there was a guillotine applied to this Bill but, in the course of the discussion in the Seanad, the Minister introduced amendments to the Employment Premium Bill which completely altered the scope of the Bill and obliged this House to engage in the present discussion to which a guillotine has not been applied. Therefore, any time taken now comes out of the Wealth Tax Bill time which is subject to a guillotine. The only suggestion I could make would be that, perhaps, the House might like to continue with the discussion on the Employment Premium Bill temporarily and, in the meantime, the Whips on both sides might wish to consult in regard to any other arrangement that might be made on the matter.
Acting Chairman
The suggestion from the Chair is that we continue with this Bill and the Whips could discuss the matter and come to a decision that the House might or might not sit beyond 10.30 p.m. At 8.30 p.m. we have to decide to sit beyond 10.30 p.m. tonight or to rise at that time. If these amendments are not disposed of before 8.30 p.m. a decision could be made as to whether we would take extra time tonight to dispose of this Bill. Otherwise, the time given for this Bill inevitably comes out of the time that could be taken for the Wealth Tax Bill.
May I make another suggestion? This Bill enables the Minister to introduce certain legislation. We have gone into it on a limited scale. The impact of this Bill will be a saving on the Exchequer rather than an expenditure and in view of this——
Acting Chairman
I do not want to take the Deputy short on any argument he may put forward but we are dealing with the specific point as to whether we should take time out of the Wealth Tax Bill or to continue with this Bill because as the rules of the House ordain that is what we are inevitably doing, unless we extend the time at 8.30 p.m. to sit later than 10.30 p.m.
I wanted to help the Chair by saying to the Minister that we would give him this Bill now if he would agree to broaden the scope. The Bill is very useful and has a lot of attributes. If the Minister would broaden the scope of it now we would facilitate him with all the necessary machinery between now and when the Dáil adjourns tonight to extend it to include the building sector and the service industry. This Bill will effectively mean a saving to the Exchequer. If the Minister can encourage the re-employment of up to 40,000 people by using this Bill as a vehicle we will have done a good night's work here.
I cannot see any objection, after introducing agriculture, why the Minister cannot introduce those two important areas where employment opportunities can and may be created. Forget about the technical and administrative difficulties if there is good will on both sides. Good will was never so necessary as at present.
On a point of order, this slice of the debate will probably appear on the Official Report under the heading of Business of the House. That is how it began but it has slipped away with the last intervention of Deputy Fitzpatrick into the Bill itself. Before I leave the House, in order to make clear the Government's point of view, I should like to say that the Chair's interpretation of the situation is correct. In other words, there is no agreement or any order of the House, there is no guillotine or anything of that kind, in regard to this particular Bill. I accept what Deputy Colley says about the Bill having come back from the Seanad with features about it which were not foreseen at the time it was before the Dáil. That is true. Therefore, whatever time is spent this evening discussing this Bill before 10.30 p.m. will be too much time taken out of the last stages of the Wealth Tax Bill.
I intend to seek the Opposition Whips now—I have been trying to do that—to try to reach some agreement about this matter but if it should be impossible to get agreement on concluding this Bill on whatever terms —I am a complete stranger to the matters at issue between Deputy Fitzgerald and the Minister—the Government will have no option but to seek an order of the House extending this evening's sitting beyond 10.30 p.m. I leave it to Deputies to decide for themselves how willing either side of the House will be personally, as distinct from officially, to do that.
May I suggest that we suspend this Bill now, proceed with the Wealth Tax Bill and arrange to sit for at least one hour after 10.30 p.m. to complete this Bill. We should have the appropriate motion before the House at this stage.
Is the Leader of the Opposition suggesting we should suspend the discussion of this Bill now, resume the Wealth Tax Bill and then go back to the other Bill at 10.30 p.m. for one hour on the understanding that it will be out of the House then?
Acting Chairman
And move for a late sitting now?
Yes, and that motion accepted by me.
Acting Chairman
Is the Leader of the Opposition prepared to move that we sit late tonight?
I would be prepared but I am not entitled to.
Would it be understood that we would then spend from now until 10.30 p.m. on the Wealth Tax Bill and that we would spend another hour on this Bill, from 10.30 p.m. until 11.30 p.m. and that at 11.30 p.m. we could go home with this Bill finished?
Acting Chairman
The Minister for Labour can move for a late sitting. I understand that he is entitled to do so. The House may pardon my lack of complete knowledge of the procedure.
Is it in order to move the adjournment of the debate on the Employment Premium Bill until 10.30 p.m. on the understanding that we will conclude it at 11.30 p.m.?
Are we assured that the Wealth Tax Bill will stand up until 10.30 p.m.? It has taken rather a battering; will it take another three hours?
Acting Chairman
If it does not we will have an interval.
I move:
That the Dáil sit late tonight and that the time for interruption of business be not later than 11.30 p.m.
Question put and agreed to.