asked the Minister for Health if he is aware of the dismay in Monaghan at the proposal to downgrade Monaghan Hospital to a community hospital; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Monaghan Hospital Status.
27.
I am aware that there is, naturally, disappointment in Monaghan that it, as well as some other existing hospital centres, was not chosen for development, but the Deputy will be aware that my choice of the major centres for hospital development was made only after hearing all views and very full consideration. As it is intended that the hospital plan as a whole will shortly be debated in the House, I do not propose on this occasion to make a more detailed statement.
Is the Minister aware that this is one of the largest county hospitals in the country, one that has been continually upgraded and where there have been extensions and where extensions are still in the course of erection? Does he not think that it is a reflection on the county and the authority that had spent so much money and time and devoted so much attention to the provision of psychiatric and geriatric services that their hospital should now be downgraded to the status of a community hospital?
The units to which the Deputy referred—one would think from what he said that these were being scrapped—will, of course, be retained. The decision is not a reflection on Monaghan. The various health boards adopted the guidelines which were set down by Comhairle na nOspidéal. These were agreed and there was no demur from any health board or public representative or from anybody else. The question, as far as the North-Eastern Health Board were concerned, was not whether Cavan and Monaghan should be developed but which of the two of them should be developed. I received various deputations, four or possibly five from Monaghan. They put their case to which I listened. I had to consider it in conjunction with the other evidence I had and finally I had to decide between Cavan and Monaghan. I decided, with the approval of the Government, that Cavan should be the site for the general hospital. Also, the North-Eastern Health Board agreed with the exception, of course, of the advisory committee from Monaghan, that the location should be Cavan.
Did the Minister consider a recent proposal for a federation of hospitals with Monaghan and an adjoining county?
No.
Question No. 28—Deputy Connolly.
In the light of the fact that the Minister has not considered it, his decision is not final?
I am not considering it.
I take it the Minister is aware of the bombings that occurred there 18 months ago. Does he not realise that if they had happened when Monaghan had a community hospital, which under his guidelines would be staffed with GPs, the victims could not have been attended to as they were in that surgical hospital that night? I was in that hospital when it happened.
That was a special and tragic occasion and it could happen in any part of Ireland.
Did the Minister consider the matter on that particular basic?
Yes. Every factor was considered.
Does the Minister stand over the guidelines which were issued for a community hospital—that it would be staffed totally with GPs?
The guidelines laid down provided for a radius of 30 miles as the catchment area and a population of 100,000.
I am referring to the guidelines setting out that community hospitals would be staffed by general practitioners?
In that respect I can say that there will be consultation with the health board. Comhairle na nOspidéal have produced a discussion document on the future of community hospitals and it will be seen from this that hospitals like Cavan and Tullamore will not be put in the position and be so downgraded, so to speak, that they will not be good community hospitals. They will have various facilities that they have not now. Other facilities that they have will be retained. They will have consultancy for in-patients and out-patients, X-ray and pathological facilities.
Deputy Toal.
Does the Minister think that the people of Monaghan——
I have called Deputy Toal. Is Deputy Leonard ignoring the Chair?
Give him a chance.
I have given him every chance. Order. Deputy Toal.
In view of the great public concern and the anxiety expressed by the people in the entire county of Monaghan will the Minister receive deputations in regard to the future of this hospital?
I anticipated this as any other Minister would in the case of what in fact is not a very simple decision and I decided before I made any decision that I would receive any representative body by way of deputation and I received about 23 or 24 deputations from all over the country, including four from Monaghan. I took into consideration everything they said. I also received a deputation from Cavan and I had to take into consideration what they said. A final decision had to be made. That decision was made and approved by the Government.
The Minister says he will not consider this further federation proposal now?
No.
Question No. 28, please.
On a point of order, Question No. 22 relates to a Dublin hospital and there is no comparison between the amount of time allowed on that question and the time allowed on the question about a hospital in Monaghan where thousands of people——
The Chair will give the Deputy reasonable latitude.
Are we not entitled to as much time to discuss a problem in County Monaghan as the Dublin Deputies are entitled to to discuss a problem in Dublin?
Has the Deputy a question?
I wish to make my protest. I had further questions to ask and I was gonged down by the Ceann Comhairle.
I had called another Deputy and Deputy Leonard sought to defy the Chair. Has the Deputy a further supplementary?
I have a further question. Will the Minister at this late hour not agree at least to examine that unanimous proposal from Monaghan County Council for a federation of hospitals, Monaghan and another county?
I will consider every proposal but I will not make a commitment.
I would ask the Minister to consider this proposal and meet a deputation because we have good reason to believe that with further appointments of a gynaecologist, an anaesthetist and an extra surgeon, those two counties could be operated as a federation at much less cost to the Department and this would be much better for the people involved in the two counties. I ask the Minister to meet a further deputation.
I am sorry, but as far as this whole business is concerned, I know there are other towns involved also. I received a request from the Opposition, from the spokesmen on health for the Fianna Fáil Party and I have agreed that there will be a discussion in the Dáil about it. Then I can answer all the Deputy's questions in detail and he can put them in detail.
I am calling the next question.
On a point of order, since the Minister says he will consider proposals, it raises doubts as to whether this is the final plan or not and I think it should be clarified.
No. Anybody who receives a letter like that would at least have to read and consider it but——
Is this the final decision?
This decision is final; Cavan is the hospital.
Does the Minister not agree that a vast amount of money has been spent on this hospital and that it will now be difficult for it to recruit further staff because that is the usual experience in the case of a hospital over which there is a cloud as there is in Monaghan's case?
There were a lot of clouds after the Fitzgerald Report.
And the Minister knew where to put the clouds because he fixed his own up and he cannot deny that. The Minister changed the guidelines to suit Wexford.
That is terribly unfair.
The Minister changed the guidelines and if that is not political gimmickery what is it? The Government are past masters at it now.
May be the Deputy can reconcile his differences with Deputy Lalor.
I have no difference with Deputy Lalor but the Minister had to reconcile with Deputy Oliver J. Flanagan because he was afraid he would vote the Government out; he had to be given the cream of the jug and that cannot be denied.
This is no way to behave at Question Time and the Deputy must be aware that he is behaving in a most disorderly fashion. There is no reason to engender heat into this.
I was supposed to be reasonable and placed in this House. In view of the fact that the Minister changed the guidelines to suit himself have the Government decided that the plan recently issued is the be all and end all of everything?
It is the be all and end all and I should like to make it clear to the Deputy that I did not make the guidelines. It was Comhairle na nOspidéal who created the guidelines. The Deputy's party set up Comhairle na nOspidéal.
The Minister went back on them and told Comhairle na nOspidéal to change the guidelines. A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse.
That is not true.
I am not blaming the Minister because he has to save Wexford.
That is a disgraceful statement but it is typical of the Deputy.
The Minister mentioned Deputy Lalor——
Question Time has concluded and this argument should cease on both sides. I am passing to the next business.
Where would Deputy Lalor like the hospital to be located?
The people will give the answer to the Deputy.
The people of Laois-Offaly will give their answer to the Deputy from that constituency who goes against them in the Division Lobbies. They will call him the greatest traitor that ever came into the House. My apologies to the Chair.
It is well for the Deputy to leave the House.
I am leaving.
Let us have regard for the dignity and decorum of this House.
Without wishing to get involved in the order of the House, it takes two to tangle.
The remaining Questions will appear on next Tuesday's Order Paper.