Vol. 287 No. 10
asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware that the security of State-sponsored bodies has been placed with foreign security firms operating in this country; and if he will indicate the steps he proposes to take to ensure that as far as possible all security work will be given to Irish controlled firms.
13.
asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware of the volume of unemployment recently created by foreign security firms that ceased to give a cash-in-transit service while continuing to make large profits from other aspects of security work and that such profits are transferred outside the country; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 and 13 together.
I have no control over the matters referred to in these questions. The questions whether there should or should not be a policy of economic protectionism in respect of foreign firms operating here is not a matter for me, as Minister for Justice, to assess.
Would the Minister not agree, particularly in matters of security, that the Government should instruct all semi-State bodies as far as possible to see that Irish nationals are in charge of the control of security and not allow the profitable end of the business to be lost by them to the detriment of Irish controlled companies? There are several of them.
I have no doubt that so far as possible semi-State bodies would put their business in the way of Irish companies. The Deputy will appreciate that these bodies are autonomous in their day to day operations. A Dáil committee will be set up to oversee some of them in the future, and this matter might be relevant to that committee. Essentially these bodies are autonomous. Presumably, other things being equal, they will give their business to a local firm.
The Minister said a committee will be set up, but will he examine as quickly as possible the implications of allowing foreign firms to carry out this type of security work when adequate Irish firms are available to do it?
Particular areas of this work probably require a speciality knowledge which might not be available locally. As I indicated in a reply to a question some time ago, the matter of security firms generally is under consideration but it is not a priority.
Have any Government Department or the Office of Public Works or the local authorities taken business away from Irish security firms who had these contracts in the past and who, I understand, have been submitting lower tenders, and passed this business over to English controlled companies?
I have no information as to that.
Is this question of security firms being considered by the Minister's Department?
Yes. It is under consideration but, as I said, it is not getting priority attention.
Will the Minister agree there is an urgent need to examine the credentials of some of these firms, many of whom leave much to be desired even in regard to what they pay their personnel?
That would not be a matter for me as Minister for Justice. This would not impinge on the security element.
Even on the security element, does the Minister not think there is a need to have some form of examination into these firms? Anybody can set up without any form of control. It is a very serious matter which should warrant urgent consideration.
It is not a question of anybody setting up in business. Before a person can set up and put himself in the way of getting business, he has to be bonded. This is a condition which I understand is insisted on by employers. If a person is not of sufficient status and cannot show himself to be so organised as to justify being bonded, he will not be able to set up at all. There is a check there.
Does the Minister consider bonding is sufficient? That is just a kind of insurance policy.
It is extremely difficult to get a bond. I am not suggesting it is the be all and end all but it is a test.
Would the Minister let us know what aspects of the security firms are being considered by his Department and what sort of priority is being given to consideration of these security firms? When can the general public and the semi-State bodies who employ these foreign based security firms know what is going on?
As I said, consideration is being given to the general area involved in the security firms, whether they should be licensed and, if so, what conditions should be attached to the licences, restrictions on who they employ and possibly their conditions of employment, their facilities, and the equipment they use. All these matters fall to be considered and will be considered. Some of them have been considered. Quite frankly, it is not a matter of urgency so far as I am concerned. I have matters in my Department which require more urgent attention and, when these urgent matters are out of the way, further consideration will be given to this area.
Could the regulations insist that English controlled firms, if they are to operate in a big way here, provide a cash in transit service because, without providing that type of service, all they are doing is trying to take the cream off the cake?
That would probably be answered by the realities of competition. If a firm tender for a particular job and cannot provide full facilities, they will not get the tender. I imagine employers would prefer a firm who were able to provide a range of security over the whole area of operation.
I wonder would the Minister consider appointing some group or committee to examine these and make recommendations having regard to what is in existence in other countries. That would relieve the Department of this worry and the group or committee could make recommendations to the Department.
If it were as simple as that that could be done but the recommendations would themselves have to be examined and analysed and that, in turn would take a great deal of time.
I am calling Question No. 14.
I just want to ask the Minister one question. Would the Minister be concerned that firms where a large degree of security is necessary might go abroad and give that particular contract to people outside the State and has his Department and machinery whereby such personnel can be screened and their credentials looked into?
State security quite obviously is a Garda involvement from the point of view of the bona fides of the personnel involved. The questions of security in the case of a private firms would be a matter for the firm itself.
The security of the State might be dependent on the security of the firm.
Would Deputy Power allow questions to continue? The Chair has allowed a great deal of latitude on this question.
Then it would be a matter of State security.
