It is a pity that a debate on a subject as important as this has to be taken in this fashion which provides only a limited amount of time. The subject of law and order is entitled to a comprehensive debate. It is six years practically to the day since we last had an opportunity in the House of having a comprehensive debate on the subject of law and order, giving full consideration to all the implications of that subject. I appreciate that Deputy Collins sought to raise it by way of Private Members' Motion but it was ruled out of order because it transgressed the sub judice rule. It surprises me that with his well known ingenuity Deputy Collins was not able to draft a motion that would have enabled the debate to take place without transgressing the sub judice rule, and I begin to wonder does it suit Deputy Collins better that such a debate should take place in such a confined time as is permitted on the Adjournment lest the debate would widen to the scope which this subject deserves.
I want to set the record straight on a couple of matters involving what was said in the debate so far and at Question Time today which might bring with them undue public alarm and uneasiness or might give the impression in this country or further afield that law and order have broken down and that this is a nation where lawlessness is the order of the day. Nothing could be further from the truth. There was an unfortunate rash of robberies some weeks ago but I am precluded, happily, from commenting on them because the vast majority are sub judice. They are sub judice because we have an active, intelligent, dedicated, loyal police force whose morale is of the highest. If the position were as Deputy Collins wants to present it to the House, of a dispirited force with no morale, the position which prevents us debating these matters could not have arisen. That fact speaks for itself, and in my journeys throughout the country that fact has been noted by the people with whom I have come in contact to their satisfaction and their peace of mind.
It is erroneous and fallacious to try to relate the crime rate to the amount of money being spent. There is no mathematical relationship between the number of police and the number of crimes committed and it is fallacious to say that is so. Therefore, it is erroneous to say that a restriction in the growth of overtime—words are important here: there was not a cut back but a restriction in the growth of over-time—was the cause of the spate of armed robberies which we have experienced.
Who can say on the other hand that if there had been unlimited overtime those robberies would not have occurred? There are explanations other than the amount of overtime being made available to the Garda and I will come to that subject in a moment. I would remind the House that when the decision was taken by me last August with regard to overtime, it was then running at a rate which if it had continued unchecked would have exceeded £10 million for the calendar year 1975. In a force of over 8,000 men this would have meant average overtime payments of £1,100 to £1,200 per member. Bearing in mind that a great number of gardaí are on duties which do not attract any overtime, this would clearly mean very large payments to some members. This was a cause of worry not only to me but to the Garda authorities themselves. It was also a source of worry for many members in the other ranks of the Garda and their representative body. This type of payment was not to be desired in the sense that it would be preferable to have such a payment made by way of ordinary pay rather than putting it in the overtime bracket, because the latter can bring an expectation of a continuation when, of its nature, it is only temporary.
That was the rate at which overtime pay was running and it was because it was running at what I considered to be an excessive rate that I decided, not by reason of any financial constraint, to impose a check. I want to make it clear to the House, and the budgetary figure confirms this, that where money is required for the maintenance of law and order, it will be and has been made available. There is no question of budgetary constraint or of my not being able to get the money I want. It was a deliberate policy decision taken by me that the continued growth had to be checked but, as I said at the time, this was a decision that was not taken in isolation. It had to be taken in perspective and the perspective and the part of the perspective was a planned management survey of the Garda to ensure the most efficient and economic deployment of the men.
That survey is under way and I hope to have the consultants' report towards the end of the summer. When the report is to hand and the result of the scientific assessment is available, further decisions can be made with regard to the future size and deployment of the force. Should the arguments and conclusions be in favour of an increase in the Garda that increase will be provided. Should the conclusions be in favour of redeployment that will be done. Deputies opposite and the country can be assured that, whatever financial implications will arise out of implementing the findings of that report, these financial implications will be met and gladly met.
I might now mention some global figures. The figure for the Garda Síochána Vote this year is £57,837,000; including two Supplementary Estimates and covering the overtime last year the figure was £52,500,000. As I made clear, the restriction on the growth of overtime does not apply to expenditure in the security area. I must say I was quite shocked and horrified when Deputy Collins criticised the action of the Government in what it did to prevent a propaganda exercise being carried out by the Provisional IRA on the occasion of the burial of the late Francis Stagg. Deputy Collins's words were that this was a spectacular propaganda showpiece. It was nothing of the sort. It was an important exercise in maintaining law and order, a subject upon which he expresses concern. It was an important exercise in asserting the will of this Parliament and showing that this nation was not going to be used by any subversive organisation for a propaganda exercise and the action of the Government had the complete support not merely of the gardaí themselves but of the entire community. I have no doubt about that. I was very heartened by the response I got from individual members of the Garda Síochána who expressed complete satisfaction with what had been done. To say in the context of this debate that that was a waste of money shows a gross misunderstanding of the realities of law and order. I reject Deputy Collins' suggestion that there had been a breakdown or a loss. Nothing could be further from the truth.
There was, as I said, a rash of particularly worrying robberies some weeks ago but it is fallacious to say those robberies can be attributed to the strength of the Garda Síochána or to any loss of overtime. If the Garda were trebled in number who is to say such incidents would not have taken place? The important thing is—again I must emphasise this —that we cannot debate these in detail now because they are now sub judice. That is the important thing and it is because of that that Garda morale is high and that the people are reassured their security is in good hands.
We are here suffering from a spill over of troubles in another part of the island. The gun was introduced into this island by the formation of the Provisionals, and I have to recall regretfully, but we might as well call a spade a spade, that a Member of this House has claimed some responsibility in the formation of that evil organisation and he has implicated people who were then colleagues of his, some of whom are still in this House and are on the front benches opposite me—I exclude the present occupants—but the cult of the gun, which that vile organisation has brought to this island, has been largely responsible for the troubles from which we are suffering, largely responsible for the incidents which have caused worry to Deputies opposite, to me and to the population in general.
I want to assure the population in general and Deputies opposite that, as far as this Government are concerned, the cult of the gun will be kept in control and will be finally eliminated and people need have no worry about their personal safety and the members of the Garda Síochána need have no worry about the well-being of their force. I am concerned about the well-being of the force because I am conscious of the tradition my party has in relation to the setting up of that force and to the initial policy decision taken that it be an unarmed civil power. I am anxious to preserve it in its high place in our society and to ensure that it will always be an efficient force of high morale and, whatever money will be needed to maintain that and whatever extra men may be needed, when we have the report of this scientific assessment that is being made of the Garda Síochána, that money will be provided and provided willingly.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.15 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6th May, 1976.
