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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 9 Nov 1976

Vol. 293 No. 9

Private Members' Business. - Young People's Employment Opportunities: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the Government's failure to provide employment opportunities for young people.

In moving this motion I must express my surprise that it is the Minister for Education who is taking it because when this matter was discussed previously it was dealt with, and rightly so, by the Minister for Labour. The Minister for Labour is supposed to be responsible for the chaotic unemployment situation that exists here at present. In the past weekend it would appear that at least some members of the Government had begun to realise that there are crises in the country apart from those they had tried to project in the previous few months. The Dáil was recalled to consider a motion declaring an emergency, in the most part created, and during the debate on it and subsequently we pointed out that the real problems were economic ones, particularly that of unemployment, with special reference to youth and the hopeless situation that exists for school leavers. After the debate on the emergency motion, legislation was left on the Order Paper, important in itself, but not dealing with the really urgent problems that should be faced up to by a Government that accepted responsibility.

This motion deplores the failure of the Government to take any positive steps, any worth-while action, to try to provide opportunities for our young people. We had a similar motion in May last and I should like at this stage to point out the lack of progress since then and the failure of the Government even to realise that such problems exist. Speaking on that motion on 4th May, the Minister for Labour replied to the case I had made and said:

As the House is aware, the Minister for Finance will shortly issue what he hopes will be the beginning of a review of all procedures, of our entire approach as it operated in the past, towards the workings of our economy.

I suppose he was referring to the Green Paper that had been promised by the Minister for Finance, because that was the only forecast that Minister could make at that time. I do not intend to refer to that document now because the Assistant Whip to the Government has covered it for me. All I will say is that the hopes of the Minister for Labour must have been shattered by the opinion offered by his colleague, Deputy Desmond. He pointed to one area, the Community Youth Project, being financed by the EEC Social Fund, so ably looked after by our President-elect, Dr. Hillery, and it is appropriate that his alleged successor sits in the House tonight: I hope that even in a small way he will emulate the feats of Dr. Hillery when he was there.

The Deputy is optimistic.

The Government appear to think this problem will disappear, that some miracle will happen whereby these young people and their employment problems will go away. We must realise that one of the most serious by-products of the recent recession is the dramatic growth in the number of young people out of work. We concede that the problem is not confined to Ireland, that it exists, but to a far lesser degree, in most other European countries. However, our out-of-work population under the age of 25 years is far in excess of our fellow EEC countries and for that reason a greater effort is needed by our Government to tackle this major problem. We estimate that the number of under-25s who are out of work is 50 per cent.

It can be said that our education system is directed towards white collar jobs rather than technological ones and that this has contributed to our present problem, because many school leavers and their parents are hoping for employment in that area. In the present year it matters little which kind of work they look for because there is not any anywhere.

It is a matter of growing concern that due to lack of Government initiative and action unemployment among school leavers will be worse before it improves. Whether it improves in the long term will depend on our ability to implement long term solutions and on the leadership given by those temporarily in power. We are due to receive from the EEC Social Fund £25 million between 1975 and 1977. We heard the Minister for Labour telling us about the increased moneys being made available by his Department to AnCO as the training authority, and one would have thought it was because of his activities or those of the Government. The reality is that the money has been made available by the EEC Social Fund where we were so fortunate as to have had such a brilliant Irishman as Dr. Hillery in the past four years. That is why there is so much money available for training in the Department of Labour.

If we are to see full employment by 1980 we have a lot of hard work to do. We have heard it said that there is no real problem as far as young people getting their first jobs are concerned. That is completely untrue. We have two different problems. The first is that there are not any, or very few, opportunities. The other is that the educational standards of those applying for the few jobs there are are far in excess of those needed for the jobs.

We had a report of a National Manpower survey on last year's school leavers. Some figures are available from it. Some of them, with good justification, are being questioned very critically as to their accuracy. According to this survey 27,979 young people out of a total of 53,019 got their first job last year. This figure represents a very serious situation because in addition to those left to seek employment from 1974, there were approximately 28,000 young people looking for employment or alternatively returning to school. Many of the 27,979 mentioned are in stop-gap jobs to which they would not aspire and which are probably disappointing in view of the sacrifices made by their parents and by themselves to achieve a certain standard of education. A good example of this was the recent chaotic situation that existed in regard to the bank applications when about 20,000 young people applied for a very small number of jobs.

The Government should be concerning themselves with the realities of that and the effects of the few opportunities these people have. This problem of people looking for work in these circumstances has become a major political issue. I am not here to make a political football of it, I am here to highlight it for this Government and to appeal to them to be positive. At a later stage I will suggest a positive approach which we in Fianna Fáil would take to improve the situation and it would certainly be much better than the little that is being done a present. This situation could become a veritable time bomb in the future because of the frustration and disappointment of these young people and the activities to which this Government are driving them. Many of those 20,000 young people seeking bank jobs will be really disappointed as they will not be successful. They cannot be successful, only a small percentage of them can be employed.

Many young people are marking time in jobs which are frustrating, where their true potential is not exploited and where unfortunately they are often exploited because there is a queue waiting to take their jobs should they complain. These are the realities of the situation. We are told by the National Manpower survey that 7 per cent of school leavers have not made a start to their working lives. Like many of the learned people who have already questioned this figure I would question it very critically and from my experience in my area I would say the figure of 7 per cent is very small and absolutely incorrect. As well as that we have a sizeable number who have returned to school not to continue an education programme but simply to kill time or hopefully to advance studies further, with no aim in view but merely because they cannot get employment. The approach to the reschooling of these young people should be entirely different; it should be constructively designed to teach them disciplines of working life. In other words, these should be an extension of all our training programmes. The Government must make some realistic attempt to provide jobs for these young people. If they are, as they claim, committed to a welfare state—although that seems to have changed this weekend when one of the Ministers was thinking out loud-they must extend unemployment assistance to all people over the age of 15 years who are not going to school and who are unemployed. This is not feasible or practicable because already we are paying out £1 million or more a week on unemployment assistance and benefits. The only solution is a realistic attempt to provide jobs for these young people. It has not yet come home to us fully that we have this problem. It certainly has not come home to the Government.

Our young people want to work and live at home. This is the aim of the majority and any job creation programme must be seen in the context of decentralisation. Anyone who doubts my statement need only drive on any of the roads on a Friday evening to see numbers of young people who work in Dublin hitch-hiking their way home. They work here for a week but their interests and their wish is to return home. Dublin has become a big impersonal city, a lonely place which creates serious social problems for many of them, therefore decentralisation of jobs is important.

I have referred to the problem of people returning to school for an extra year. They return at two levels mainly. We are given a figure of 8 per cent by this manpower survey of last year but one must doubt very seriously that survey in addition to doubting that 8 per cent. We have a reluctance by this Government to have any statistical information available. Statistical information is vital if we are to tackle this problem. We did not have a census, it was postponed, and only God knows when we will have a census, but we had a national manpower survey that gives us certain figures, more than a year later, in relation to the previous year's school leavers. That is not enough. If we are serious in getting such a survey we must accept that we alone of the European countries are in this category.

I said before that in a survey of the ECC countries we were shown to have 1 per cent unemployment under 25 years. We were not shown at all in the next survey, simply because everybody realised there was no serious effort by the Government to get a correct survey. The figure of 1 per cent was so nonsensical that it would have been stupid to include an Irish figure so far from the truth. If a problem is not analysed, it cannot be solved. We have often heard in the past from some Ministers opposite that to solve any problem you must first identify that problem. At the moment the basic problem is that we have no idea of the up-to-date situation regarding our school leavers.

Regarding the return to school for an extra year, young people go back at intermediate certificate or group certificate level because they have failed to get an apprenticeship. They go back at leaving certificate level because they fail to get a job and they cannot, for financial or other reasons, go on to a third level course. The structure of that school year should be arranged to include some sort of work experience programme where the students would learn the disciplines I have already mentioned.

There are several levels on which we must face our unemployment problems. There is, in fact, an EEC requirement that each member country should keep figures of employment in the 15 to 25 age group. We are failing to fulfil that requirement. I have instanced already the totally incorrect figures given last year. The National Manpower Service should be extended to compile the up-to-date information we need. It would serve two purposes. It would give us the statistics we need as a nation. There is no point in Ministers going to Europe, to the new Commissioner or to somebody else, without proper statistics. It is like going to a bank manager and telling him you want money and having no idea why you want it. We have no business going to Europe without an up-to-date survey of young people needing employment and the different levels of employment reached. The money is there and I hope we will be able to get as much money from the new Commissioner for Social Affairs as we have over the past four years. Unless our case is prepared, we certainly will not.

The second benefit would be the creation of extra jobs in the Manpower Service. At a time when there are so many young people unemployed, would it not be wonderful to give these articulate school leavers the opportunity of employment, even on a temporary basis, in compiling the necessary statistics? I referred earlier to the census. This Government have absolutely no interest in giving statistical information even to Members of the House.

I was treated with contempt in this House last week, and I resent it. My subsequent efforts to get figures omitted from a reply by the Minister for Labour have not yet been successful. I refer to Question No. 35 on 3rd November, 1976. In his reply the Minister promised to give me information in a tabular statement. According to the heading above the table, that statement should have contained two lists of figures, one for 1st October, 1976, and one for 3rd October, 1975. It did not do so. Is it that the Minister was ashamed to have those figures announced, or did he want to withhold them from me, the spokesman appointed for the time being to shadow him in this House? That conduct by any Minister is a disgrace and it is in contempt of the House. Those figures are important because they refer to the number of people registered on 3rd October last year and 1st October this year in the various manpower offices. I agree they could not be related to unemployment because there would be job changers in that group, as well, but at least they would give an indication of the impossible task facing the manpower service.

I see the solution in the short term and in the long term. As a short term measure to alleviate immediate hardship we must devise practical ways by which young people can be helped over the winter months. These initiatives must be under several headings. We must make incentives available to companies to provide productive employment for young people in proportion to the size of their work force. At the moment many employers are under-employed. There is a growing tendency to reallocate work when a job becomes vacant. This is particularly true in many office type jobs. From the employer's point of view it can be argued that present legislation is anti-employment. There are heavy welfare payments, pay-related contributions. AnCO levies, redundancy payments, employers liability, insurance premiums, all necessary in themselves, but they are loaded at this stage against the employment of young persons in particular.

We should launch a national campaign to give jobs to youths, or something of that nature. Let us launch it on a national basis. Let us encourage the employer in a choice of ways. Let us assist him by reducing the cost of the social welfare stamp. Let us extend the scope of the premium employment programme. It has been proved after 18 months in operation that the narrow guidelines laid down by the Minister for that scheme in summer, 1975, were so confined that his initial target of 10,000 jobs in 12 months has not been reached, or anywhere near it. Even after 18 months we are still short by more than 4,000 jobs of the target set. We could hope to reach that target if the scheme were extended to assist school leavers. The subject is so vast that I could speak about it all night.

I will come back to the short term in a moment. In the longer term the first essential is to survey the problem as it exists. At the moment, there is no organisation which can forecast what the trends in employment will be. It is time for the IDA and AnCO to get together and to issue some broad directives as to how employment trends will develop. Perhaps we need a new IDA on a more regional basis with more power given to the different regional groups. I am not reflecting in any way on the IDA. They have done a lot of good. I should like to see a more regional approach to the IDA with very close co-operation and liaison with AnCO and the National Manpower Service, with the National Manpower Service feeding in the information necessary and AnCO and the IDA combining to project the employment pattern or the employment trends.

I am afraid our educational system is becoming more and more geared to the minority under this Government. The opportunities are probably becoming more available for the third level student, but only for a very small number of them. The masses are being neglected; the minority alone are being catered for. If the Government are serious, it is long time past for action. They must act now or it will be too late.

I am sorry the Minister for Labour is not here, because I want to draw attention to another of his schemes or targets which is not being realised by him. Referring to the Community Youth Projects, which had been initiated in Europe as long ago as early 1975, again under the sponsorship of the Commissioner for Social Affairs, the Minister said at column 598, Volume 290, of the Official Report of 4th May last:

About 50 projects have been proposed and it is our objective to get 1,000 young people into employment as a result of the community youth training programme.

At column 599 he said:

I hope to see something like 1,000 young people employed by means of this programme during the year.

In this House last week he told us the figure was 332; we can accept that it is between 300 and 330. In other words, he has achieved only about 30 per cent of a target set by himself in May. That is another proof of absolute failure by the Minister for Labour.

Our party, responsible as always, when this Government were creating national emergencies that did not exist at all, were positive enough to still have their sights set on the real emergency that exists and did exist on 31 August and the subsequent weeks. As a result, an economic document was produced, a document that contained—and I am referring only to young persons' employment—a proposal that £20 million of the £100 million being allocated for job creation would be set aside to provide at least 5,000 new jobs in the under-25 age group.

If any impact is to be made in stimulating employment the lead must be given by the State, by the semi-State bodies, by the local authorities and by large public companies. What do we see in any areas we examine? We see all the temporary officers in the civil service being laid off, or very many of them. We see local authorities having redundancies, despite the tremendous amount of work to be done by them. We have these redundancies because of the major cutback in our Road Fund grant allocations. In every county you see major road works started and not completed. I worked for the county council as a young clerk in an engineer's office and I can tell the House a good story. In 1956, during the time of the last Coalition Government, a particular road job was opened, and the allocations we got for continuing work on that road improvement job were enough to keep the lamps lighting during the following winter. There is the same situation now.

In the present climate of high unemployment, a policy of non-recruitment by the State bodies should not be tolerated. At the same time as an overall emergency employment policy is being pursued, a special aid programme to help the young people must be undertaken, and, as I said, we would propose direct incentive to companies in the private sector. As well as that, there is no reason why the scheme which has been 30 per cent successful under the aegis of the Minister for Labour should not be 100 per cent or almost 100 per cent successful through the development of community task forces. Furthermore, there should be an extension of the AnCO apprenticeship scheme to coincide with the industrial expansion outlined in the economic policy document of our party, so that a trained work force will be available in the occupations in which they will be needed.

I do not always rely on Press reports, but I saw one recently—and I am sorry I cannot quote the newspaper —about the concern among the management of NET regarding adequate staff with sufficient expertise not being available for the new project at Marina Point. I cannot say whether that is true or not, but I would hate to think that we could not recruit enough staff within our own country. It is still a year or two away and in that time there is no reason why many of our people could not be trained to take their places at management level in that concern.

We have also suggested the encouragement of early retirement on a voluntary basis and subsidising that early retirement in order to make room at the lower levels. If half our population are under 25, the consequences are alarming if we have not the courage and the leadership to take this kind of positive action. I also referred to the introduction of the transitional year in schools, the year in which young people can be made fit for the work pace. As well as that, young workers starting on a new career, should also be encouraged by his or her employer to continue to study. It is essential for the personal development of the individual, that an attitude of striving to improve his position be created in the work force. In the long term the aim should be to encourage mobility, the rotation of duties and so on.

At this point mobility is important, the decentralisation, the creation of industry and the creation of jobs as near as possible to the home base. Career guidance is also essential.

The failure of this Government in all these aspects is something they can never get away from. The projects they have initiated have not been well thought out. There is room for improvement in them and many others on which they could embark if they were only led by somebody who would tell them to do it. Unless we do this, we are facing the type of Ireland that maybe some of these people would like to see, where there are discontented young people. In my opinion our young Irish people are the best people in the world and are deserving of the best support from any Government. I do not want such tripe as was dished up by some of the Ministers here last week on the economic debate about emigration. Fianna Fáil's positive approach through the 'sixties stopped emigration.

First, I want to clarify a matter about who was in these benches because the motion, which is in extremely general terms, was put down by four Opposition Deputies led by the Opposition spokesman for Education, followed by the Opposition spokesman for Industry and Commerce, then the Opposition spokesman for Labour and a fourth Deputy.

The generosity of the spokesman for Labour.

It was not possible to know who it was directed at because it is directed at a series of ministerial responsibilities. The absence of the Minister for Labour is not indicative of any unwillingness on his part to be here. I understand he will be here. We did not know who was leading for the Opposition. Indeed, the Minister for Education and I have been in the House for most of the opening contribution.

I noticed he had Le Monde with him.

My interest in his last sentence might be a glimmer of recognition of imbalance in the Deputy opposite when he mentioned emigration. For 40 minutes, until that final saving awareness of the changed situation in the analysis of unemployment figures it did not figure at all. When it did figure it was for the sake of making a spurious claim about it.

It is not a spurious claim.

Deputy Fitzgerald said that to solve any problem we must first set out what it is. He talked about levels of unemployment without discussing levels of emigration. The figures for unemployment through the 'fifties and 'sixties fluctuated between a low of 52,000 and a high of 72,000. That was the range of fluctuation.

It was 10,000 in 1972.

The figure for 1972 was 72,000.

It was not.

There is no point in trying to make facts go away by contradictions. What is interesting is that the present excess of unemployment is a matter of 40,000 or 50,000 people. In the 20 years from 1951 to 1971 the number of people who left the country was more than half-a-million—it was 543,000. Of those 20 years two years and nine months were Coalition and the remainder government by the people in opposition. In the period 1961 to 1971 the figure is 134,000. If for any of those years you add the figure of unemployment and the figure of emigration—let us take the period from the late 'fifties to 1961—you will find a figure which is very close to the present indigenous figure of unemployment. We are faced with a serious debate that forgets that the problem was solved for decades by the emigrant ship, that forgets suddenly and conveniently that not alone is emigration over but that there is a net inflow, that forgets that the population is growing but expects to be taken seriously on the basis of saying that to solve any problem you must first sort out what it is. Indeed. To solve this problem it is necessary to affirm that those figures reflect in our time in Government the ending of emigration, a dramatic rise in population and substantial demographic shifts which have been available to people—for example, the works of Brendan Walsh. All those things are summed up in the type of figures we have.

It is not my intention to talk about the responsibilities of other Ministers who will participate in the debate. Therefore the specific responsibility of the Minister for Labour, or the creation of employment schemes in other ministerial areas are not things I want to touch on. It is necessary to see the problem of unemployment in general and the problem of unemployment of the young not in terms of the general blanket denunciations of frightfulness or incompetence, not in terms of euphoria or of sweeping it under the carpet, but as it is. In that context it is valid to look at our pattern of unemployment and how we have been behaving. We are obviously not dramatically better. If we are dramatically worse, then there is room for the charges of incompetence and inefficiency, indolence and so on. If we are somewhere within the spectrum of the performance of other comparable countries, particularly EEC countries, then there is reason for describing that situation and describing what can be done. Indeed, since the solutions to problems are not alone matters for Government but for national consensus, if there can be a national consensus, then we can do it together. A Government alone cannot do it. A Government that cannot convince significant sectors of the population of the real situation cannot bring those sectors with it.

We hear about the rise in unemployment levels and the blanket denunciations, but there are many ways to measure unemployment. I am not suggesting that the way I am about to give is the only way or the most important way, but I am suggesting that it is another valid way to look at it when you are making comparisons. The comparison I want to make is a comparison in time between the first quarter of 1974 and the first quarter of 1976, a two-year span. In the first quarter of 1974 we began to see the beginnings of the influence of the dramatic rise in oil prices but there is always a short time lag with actual loss of jobs. If you say there was a certain amount of unemployment in each country at the beginning of a period and over, for example, the two years I am offering in this comparison, how much did it go up by in each country? That is another valid way to look at it. I quote from the principal economic indicators of the OECD, October, 1976. In that period it went up in Belgium by 126 per cent, in Denmark by 286 per cent, in France by 112 per cent, in Germany by 115 per cent, in the UK by 104 per cent, in Italy, which was out of phase with the other countries and which was in a recovery phase for some of that time, by 14 per cent.

It was high already.

Yes, it was. Deputy, you will have your chance.

I apologise.

The point is that with Italy pecularily low, Ireland had an increase of 63 per cent, which was almost identical with the Netherlands and which is at the bottom of the spectrum of increase, apart from Italy. By that yardstick our performance on increase of unemployment was rather good, not frightful, not out of the general spectrum, but towards the bottom end of the general spectrum. I talked the last time we debated this sort of subject, which was only a few days ago, about what seemed to me the awful danger of excessive pessimism, an excessively negative sort of approach to what are our real problems.

I am not going to go into figures for the extent of financial aid from the State to industry. I gave some figures for that the last time. I shall not repeat them now but I noted that Deputy Fitzgerald talked about the extra £100 million we heard of recently. Remember it is extra; it is not a £100 million; it is £100 million on top of——

I never used the word "extra".

No, I am using it because it is an extra. There is more than £100 million State aid already. What we are asked for is an extra £100 million. I will be making the argument in a minute as to whether it is prudent to raise the sort of taxation necessary to do that. I want to talk about the strategy for getting, not just for the young but for everybody, rising employment and jobs for as many people as are employable. In a sense the young are a separate problem. In another sense if you do not have a generally healthy economy all that you can do for any particular sector will be at the expense of some other. I do not have any sectoral responsibility for the young as perhaps a Minister for Education or Minister for Labour might have but I participate in a general responsibility for the economy.

I want to spend the rest of my time talking about what I see as the strategy for general improvement because, if we can get a national consensus about that, we can do it. If we do not get it, we cannot. Before going on to that I want to reiterate one other thought, which is not to express complacency or satisfaction, because I can assure Deputies there is neither in the Government, but to express a certain sense of pride that the Irish economy has come through such a desperate time so well. I know people hate figures. I also know, in fairness, that it is very easy to pick figures in a distorted way and give bogus impressions.

By God there is no one in Ireland knows it better.

The record of the House is available to people and the way in which I use statistics is open to analysis. If Deputies on the other side would analyse the way in which I have misused or distorted them they would have the proceedings of the Parliament, the plaudits of their party, indeed the pens of the pundits in the newspapers praising them for doing it. But, until they do that, they do not have the right to the sort of sneer of an imprecise kind they have just made. Let them take me apart logically on the record of the House, if they are able. I await it because it has not happened up to now, and I use plenty of statistics and will go on doing so.

The point about which I want to remind people is that in the last year, from the second quarter of 1975 to the second quarter of 1976, we were joint fifth in the OECD league table for percentage increase of industrial production; over the two years 1974 to 1976 we were joint third; and over the years since this Government came into office we were joint fourth out of the OECD countries, not just the Community. That is not shameful. That is not a bad performance. It is a good performance. If we remember the good with the bad we may actually see things as they are.

The great thing to be solved to get a satisfactory growth of employment here in the short, medium and long term is the question of inflation. Inflation is caused by different things at different times. There are external causes about which this or any other Government can do nothing. Devaluation of the £ was something to do with the whole of sterling and with an economy much larger than ours—the rise in interest rates in London, the rise in world prices, the approximation of EEC food prices to world food prices and the rise in our food prices when we came up to EEC levels. The latter had some good effects for us. Those were all external—indeed the food one was beneficial—but nothing about which we could do anything if we took our decision, as we did, with more than 80 per cent of our people to be part of the Community.

There are two internal things we can do something about. One of those is wages and the other is the level of public expenditure. Those are things within our control. Those are things through which we can go on creating a better and better environment for industrial investment, or where we can fail to do so. When I say: "Go on creating a better and better environment" our record of creating environment for industrial investment and of attracting overseas investment will bear comparison with any country in the world. It is possible, of course, to sneer but it is not possible to analyse that away. Our record for that is very good.

What motion are we on? The Minister seems to be absolutely irrelevant.

I thought it was about the Government we were talking.

The question of employment opportunities——

We are getting a repeat of last week's economic lecture. He proved last week the economy was moving and he is going to prove it again this week.

The Minister is entitled to make his contribution without interruption.

Is he not expected to talk about the motion on the Order Paper?

This is a point which is readily disposed of. I said I did not have a sectoral responsibility for youth but, since youth were a part of the general problem for which I had part responsibility, I was talking about the things which influence the general level of employment here. Obviously that has a bearing on the young; it is the only bit of bearing on the young that I have a departmental responsibility to talk about. But it is also obviously fundamental to the question of whether or not there are jobs for young people. There is no question of irrelevance.

Is the Minister opting out?

The Minister has about ten minutes left. Deputies will be expecting their time without interruption as well.

In my opinion that is too long.

The Chair allows everybody to make their contribution without interruption, I hope.

We have an economy here which is not a laissez faire one. It is not a totally planned economy; it is something in between; it is a mixed economy. In those circumstances of the mixed economy I seem to find over and over that when people demand things in a simplistic way the immediate satisfaction of those demands would produce the opposite result to the thing they purport to want. Indeed I think there were evidences of that in what the last speaker, Deputy Fitzgerald, said because precisely by doing the list of things which he said, we would create an environment in regard to a level of taxation, both private and corporate taxation, and we would commit a percentage of the GNP of the country to be gathered and expended by the State which would be profoundly disincentive. For the sake of trying to solve sectoral problems of the young, we would be breaking up the environment in which people want to invest and to create jobs because it has to be reiterated that in our mixed economy the majority of the jobs are created by the private sector. The most important single influence on job creation for the young or anybody else is whether you have an environment where people want to invest and where the entrepreneur can flourish. If you take so much of the gross national product in taxes for redistribution for purposes however laudable——

Fifty-five per cent. The Minister did listen to me.

Which does the Deputy want? Does he want us to take more or not? They do not listen to each other because they speak with two voices. On the one hand they want less taxation and on the other they want another £100 million more expenditure. The Deputies want to have it both ways because one does not know what the other is doing.

(Interruptions.)

We get foolish statements from across the floor. They say contradictory things.

The Minister has nothing to say. He should not be talking in riddles.

If Deputies cannot cease interrupting they ought to leave the House. In a fixed debate the Chair will insist that the Deputy in possession—the Minister in this case—be allowed to speak.

In the circumstances of the European Economic Community, which is not just of free trade but of the free movement of goods, of capital and of labour, it is extremely easy not just to produce the absence of growth in industry but to produce a disindustrialisation. There is some evidence of this happening, for example in the United Kingdom, with a shrinking of the industrial sector. If you get to that stage by creating a taxation environment the industry simply goes elsewhere to a place within the Community where it is more welcome. Then you have a shrinking number of jobs, shrinking consumption and, of course, a shrinking tax base and less to spend on all the laudable schemes.

It is easy to get into a confused situation about what is productive and what is non-productive. A music teacher or a home assistance officer is obviously productive in any human sense. We have to remember that the environment which produces products that can be exported and sold in competition with the products of other countries is the key to jobs for the young or jobs for anybody else. That is the core of it. The distinction between home and overseas markets is now meaningless because if we cannot export we cannot defend the home market. What we are talking about, if we are really concerned with the young, is not more percentage of GNP taken by the State to be given back in more or less efficient ways, but of less percentage of GNP being taken by the State, less taxation, private and corporate, and creating an environment where people, indigenously or from other parts of the world, will come because it is a good place to invest and produce things.

That is the key to solving the problem of the young, not by saying: "Another £100 million". What is so funny about the Opposition in their economic policy is when we were deep in recession and the curve was going down and we were saying: "Now is the time to go into deficit, to borrow to cushion people against the destruction of their ordinary life" then we were wrong to borrow. It turned around in a world scale and then we said: "Now you cannot go on borrowing, now you have to toughen because now we have the export lead growth that will really create the jobs", and suddenly the Opposition said: "No, we were wrong to criticise you before. Now we think you should spend another £100 million". They were wrong the first time when the curve was going down. Then they got their timing wrong when the curve turned around and started to rise.

(Interruptions.)

The key is the creation of an environment. If the people say, through the whole economy, that they want it now, that is the guarantee that we will not have it now. In fact, we will not have it at all. Why is it suddenly automatic that every year people must have more? The people in 1800 were no better off in terms of real consumption than the people in 2000 BC. They had enough to keep body and soul together and keep the cold out, but no more. It was not much better in the year 1900. Twenty years ago, when people were out of work, their families broke up, their children could not go to school. They were cold and were actually less nourished in brain and body because there was not enough food. That is not happening any more. We have to convince people —the "we" are Government and Opposition and those we have to convince are the different sections of the community, the different social partners —that we can only get richer by producing more. We all want the same things because none of us really wants to see the young out of work. We are programmed as human beings, whether we are straight or crooked, whether we are clever or stupid, as parents and as members of the human race to wish well to the young. We may differ about the best way to do that.

The best way to do it for the young is to get growth in the economy. Growth solves everything. If we get growth we will have more to give to every section, more for education, more for people to stay longer without working if they do not wish to work, more for training for work. The crucial thing is to create the conditions of growth, not instantly because there is no way to do it instantly, where this is a place where all sorts of jobs, but primarily industrial jobs, can be found because you cannot carry more service jobs, which we want, without productive employment in industry and agriculture. The crucial thing is not to say "another £100 million". I will not go through the list of things which Deputy Fitzgerald said. He said plenty of things that would cost a lot more money. Where does that come from?

It was right to go on increasing the percentage of GNP and to go on increasing the deficit when we were going down in the slump. It is not right to go on doing it when the world is coming out and when our exports are performing very well. Now we have to do the opposite. We have to say to people: "Do not ask for it in the title of the book ‘I Want it Now'. Do not say we all want it. Do not say we want more and more social consumption". I am sure there is consensus in the House about more for education, social welfare and health. We all want that but we differ about how you get it. If you insist on having it now you do not get it at all because you deindustrialise and because the industries go to other places.

There are policies appropriate for the time and what was appropriate for two years ago is not appropriate for now. There is a different environment. Our industrial exports are doing very well. We have to go on making this a more and more attractive place. We will have jobs for everybody. We will not solve the problem of jobs for the young separately. We will not solve them by transfers from other sections of the community. That does not do it. You solve the problems of employment as a whole by creating the sort of environment I have spoken about. If I am finding any consensus then I believe the community ought to do certain things. Sometimes the Opposition are serious and sometimes they are not. I hope they are in relation to this.

I hope, first, that the Opposition will admit that the genuine use of honest figures shows that the situation is neither brilliant nor terrible but is something in between, with some things to be ashamed of and some things to be proud of. It is in the middle. That is the way it is.

Unemployment is in the middle.

The Deputy was not here earlier. I suggest the Deputy reads the text in the Official Report. We ought to agree what the dangers are now. I list among the dangers now the following. First, there is undue pessimism, because it is self-fulfilling prophesy. Secondly, labour unrest. If people want a bigger and bigger share of the cake that is self-destructive. Thirdly, that wage rises in both the public and private sectors go up by more than production and productivity. Fourthly, that increasing public expenditure in the areas of public consumption takes a larger and larger percentage of GNP. Fifthly, that this inevitably increases taxation, both in the public and private sectors, direct and indirect taxation. That is disincentive for individuals and for companies. Finally, inflation due to wage rises and to levels of public expenditure we cannot control. Those seem to me to be the dangers. If we can agree on those dangers, if we can get some consensus inside the House and then some consensus inside the country of all the people who listen to us we can deal with every one of them. If we deal with every one of them we can look after the unemployment of the young as well as among every other section. If we cannot deal with them we cannot solve unemployment, good or bad, for young or old.

Mr. Kitt

Apparently the Minister should govern instead of lecturing.

I was listening to the Minister when he continued to place emphasis on creating conditions of growth. I agree, but I wonder what our hundreds of thousands of young people who will read the Minister's remarks in the daily papers tomorrow will think. They will be asking the Minister and his Government: "What have you been doing over the past three-and-a-half years——

At least they will be at home to read them.

——to create a condition of growth?" That is the question young people will be asking the Minister tomorrow morning. In my contribution to the budget debate on 12th February this year, I said, as reported in the Official Report, Volume 287 column 1976:

To me, and I suppose to many other Irish people, this budget has projected a vivid picture of a Government in complete disarray. The measures introduced were in a panic situation. No proper assessment was made of the present situation of our economy. The approach made to rectify the state of our economy was disastrous.

The announcement made over the weekend by the Minister for Finance proves my point in this matter. We can now see the fruits of that and the previous budget introduced by this Government. One of the most disappointing aspects of the Government is their failure to provide employment for our young people. The Minister was quoting statistics and I would like him to look at one statistic published by the president of the University Students' Union. He was talking about a figure of something in the region of 160,000 to 180,000 young people. I would ask the Minister, because statistical information is not available to anyone now because we had no census, to look at the thousands of young people who over the past three years completed their leaving certificate, came on the labour field, found there was no employment for them and then rushed back into school both day and night school. It would be interesting to know, because they are not registered at labour exchanges and so forth, the number of young people between the ages of 18 and 25 who are unemployed and presently sitting in classrooms who would love to be in employment.

The Government's failure to examine the areas where the potential of employment lies must be deplored. I mentioned here last year one area where definite potential lies, and that is in the development of the Cork regional development harbour plan. Here is a definite prospect of employment for at least 200 people at the outset of that development with the further definite prospect of at least 20,000 new jobs by 1990, and that would cost the State about £9 million. When we see the money that is being vested in non-productive purposes it is time to hang our heads in shame. This is a regional development with tremendous job opportunities for our young people, and that applies to all harbours throughout the country. I am sure I do not have to inform the Minister that port-related industries are the fastest-growing industry sectors in the world. Surely then it should be the concern of the Government to attract such industry.

I can say without fear of contradiction that the Government have completely failed in their obligations towards the welfare of our young people. A directive was issued to health boards and local authorities and to the civil service to stall the recruitment of personnel. This was a severe blow to thousands of school leavers who were seeking employment with them. I do not think that any Members of the House who are members of local authorities and health boards will deny this. Here again this was a tremendous area of employment for our young people.

Deputy G. Fitzgerald dealt with some aspects of AnCO, and for very good reasons. The Government have failed to give the necessary consideration in the area of AnCO development. Here great potential lies in the training of our young people, especially in the technological field. The main objective of AnCO, which was set up by a Fianna Fáil Government, is to help individuals to develop themselves and to improve their job prospects and to provide trained workers for expanding industries. I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who is sitting in tonight for the Minister for Labour, to give, with the Minister for Labour, very serious consideration to AnCO. The money invested in AnCO was worthwhile but unfortunately not sufficient money was given to develop all the potential that existed there. I make a very special appeal again to the Minister and to his colleague the Minister for Labour to examine all the potential of this great organisation.

One great industry which has been allowed to run down is the building industry. It is one of our greatest areas of employment and caters for a large number of apprentices. Here again the Government have failed in this potential. I am trying to be as constructive as possible because we should be looking at the areas where employment lies. It is sad that this has been neglected. Young people all over the country are talking of the areas that I am talking about. What is the answer? We had the Minister for Industry and Commerce quoting statistics of things of that kind and yet not talking of one potential of areas of employment. The Government cannot continue to ignore the great resource a nation has in its young people. Surely a Government must be aware of the tremendous frustrations building up in our young people because of the appalling lack of job opportunities which leads them to get involved in many anti-social activities. On behalf of young people I appeal to the Government to introduce immediately a crash programme to provide employment for them. We can introduce crash programmes for many sectors but this is the most urgent one.

I recall in 1973 that Government spokesmen went round the country urging people to mobilise all their resources and to prepare for new industries in an effort to anticipate the improved economic conditions in the European markets in the next few years. Two years ago statements of that kind were made by Ministers of this Government.

What has been done? Can we see any expansion in any of our industries at the moment? If one contacts an employer in an effort to obtain employment for a young person more than likely he will tell one that the firm is considering redundancy rather than recruitment. Ask any young people outside the doors of this House and they will tell one the reply they are getting. I know the Parliamentary Secretary is fully aware that in the Southern Health Board where there were approximately 40 vacancies for trainee nurses about 5,000 girls from all over the country applied for the posts. It is difficult to have to tell young people that they must just hope for the best and that prospects may improve. Above all, they must be told not to do anything that may jeopardise their future. I have said that on many occasions because I know we are on the threshold of something that may be considered later a terrible tragedy in Irish history.

It is sad to see Irish Minister going round the world with their hats in their hands begging for money to pay our unemployed. We should be creating incentives for young people, we should be developing our resources and providing the necessary facilities to attract industrialists but, at all times, we should be in a position to dictate the terms to those wishing to set up industries. That should be the aim of any Irish Government. It must be admitted we have failed in the area of employment.

Independence is a great thing but what kind of independence have young people? In order to offset the lack of employment the Government introduced the dole. It would be interesting to know how many young people are getting unemployment assistance and it would also be interesting to know how many of them have had to undergo a means test. What kind of independence have young girls? What return can they give to their parents and families who have made tremendous sacrifices to educate them? I hope that before the term of office of this Government comes to an end at least they will try to tell the young people what they were attempting to do. A Minister spoke here tonight but he did not deal with one area that could create one single job. Instead, he tried to confuse the public with statistical information that could be very easily twisted. All of us know that this kind of data can be twisted anyway to suit the occasion and personally I do not believe in all the statistics that have been quoted.

I agree totally with what our spokesman on Labour said about the private sector. All the time the Government are issuing statements and sending out feelers to the public. I see the Parliamentary Secretary is smiling at that. I smiled last Sunday also but my conclusion and that of many people is this: How far removed must the Government be from the people that they have to go on radio and make certain statements in the hope of getting a feedback from the public? It is a reflection on the Minister concerned, on every member of the Government and on every member of the back benches when this has to happen.

One could become very emotional when dealing with young people. Unless the Government are prepared to introduce a crash programme to give some confidence to our youth they will have to take full responsibility for what happens.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 10th November, 1976.
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