asked the Minister for Local Government the number of tenants and tenant-purchasers of local authority dwellings who surrendered them to the local authority on receipt of an SDA loan in each of the years 1973, 1974, 1975 and 1976.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Housing Statistics.
19.
This information is not available in my Department.
Is the Minister telling me he has not found it possible to get the information requested in this question from local authorities?
Yes. Deputy Faulkner must know, from his long experience in this House, that separate statistics of the number of tenants and tenant-purchasers who surrender dwellings are not kept by local authorities. For the purpose of the new scheme local authorities are now being asked to do so; up to now they were not required to do so, by this or any previous Government since the foundation of the State.
Might I suggest to the Minister that that is a most extraordinary statement because I had no difficulty in getting them. Might I suggest to the Minister that the reason the figures were not given to me is because there was an exceptionally low number involved and that the Minister based his new scheme on the possibility that there would be a very low number involved in this scheme as well?
If Deputy Faulkner got the information he says he got, I do not know why he put down the question. I can assure him that my officials advised me that it is not possible to get the information. Since it is not possible to get the information, I cannot give it to the House. No provision was made for such records to be kept by local authorities up to now; they will be kept in future.
The information I received was from a small number of local authorities. The question I put down here related to all local authorities. Therefore I am suggesting to the Minister that, when it was possible for me to get the information from a small number of local authorities, surely it was possible for him to get it from all the authorities throughout the country?
Deputy Faulkner says he was able to get the information. I would be surprised if local authorities would go back on their books—since Deputy Faulkner does not put any date on it—for 1973, 1974, 1975 and 1976; that local authorities would, at the request of somebody, go back on their books and spend time getting him a figure which might or might not be correct. I am surprised if Deputy Faulkner says that this is so. However, I shall have further inquiries made about the matter.
Would the Minister agree that, in circumstances where the number involved was relatively small, any worthwhile staff officer in charge of housing in any local authority would be able to give the figures almost off the top of his head?
No, for the very simple reason that staff officers in charge of housing, in most local authorities, have been changed again and again over the four years referred to.
Question No. 20, please.
20.
asked the Minister for Local Government the minimum income of a family of three which could be regarded as such that the family could reasonably be expected to provide proper accommodation from their own resources.
A judgment on this matter would necessarily be strongly influenced by factors other than the family income and I am not prepared to specify a hard and fast minimum income which would apply in all circumstances. In a recent circular issued by my Department in regard to the new low-rise mortgage scheme local authorities were advised that "a person shall be disqualified in so far as financial circumstances are concerned unless the local authority has established that persons generally of similar means would not normally have a prospect of a loan at the time from a building society or other financial institution".
Is the Minister aware that the present maximum qualifying income limit for an SDA loan is £45 a week? Therefore one might assume that, in the Minister's opinion, an income of £45 a week is sufficient to permit a young family to cater for its housing needs. Might I ask the Minister, therefore, if loans under this scheme will be confined to those with incomes of less than £45 a week.
If I thought Deputy Faulkner was correct I would not have introduced the new scheme. It was to deal with exactly the situation to which Deputy Faulkner referred—because people on low incomes were not able to get a loan big enough to buy their houses—this new scheme was introduced.
Would the Minister agree that it would have been much more beneficial to young people in need of housing, and particularly to the building industry as such, if the Minister had increased the maximum amount available under the SDA loans scheme and also increased the qualifying income limit to a realistic level?
If I agreed with the Deputy's arguments that is what I would have done. I do not agree therefore I did something different.
Would the Minister agree that these four questions were put down to elicit information in relation to the new scheme which has been proposed and that we now know as much about the scheme as we did when the questions were first put down?
I am under the impression that Deputy Faulkner has attempted to score a few political points and they just did not come off.
21.
asked the Minister for Local Government the number of families on the local authority waiting list in the greater Dublin area; and the number of such families who will qualify for the low-rise mortgage scheme.
Following the last revision of Dublin Corporation's waiting list for rehousing, which was completed in November, 1972, there were 5,307 approved applicants on the list. The corporation's progress reports show that they rehoused 10,587 families between the 30th November, 1972 and the 31st October, 1976. Following their adoption of a revised scheme of letting priorities based on a points system, they are now in the process of revising their waiting list.
Dublin County Council do not maintain a general approved waiting list for rehousing. Approved applicants are listed for individual housing areas. I understand that the total of applicants approved by the council, for rehousing, at 30th September, 1976, was of the order of 2,000. While Dún Laoghaire Corporation do not maintain an approved waiting list I understand that a total of about 670 applicants has been approved by them for rehousing.
Information is not available in my Department as to the family sizes of housing applicants in the Dublin area. It is not possible for me, therefore, to indicate, at this stage, how many families in the area would qualify under the low-rise mortgage scheme. Local authorities have been requested, as a matter of urgency, to bring the new scheme to the notice of persons likely to qualify, including persons approved for rehousing.
Would the Minister consider advising local authorities to extend the waiting list thereby enabling lots of young couples who would not qualify for weekly tenancy houses to qualify under the new low mortgage scheme? As Deputy Faulkner pointed out, at the moment it is of little help to most people who are pressed for houses. It will help the people who have flats or houses already but not the people without them.
That is a lot of nonsense.
Dublin Corporation feel that so few will qualify for it that they are putting forward a very small amount of money towards it for next year. The Minister could advise them to open the waiting list to take in people who have no houses at the moment so that the scheme could be of some benefit.
Many people who have no houses at the moment must qualify under this scheme and even if half of the 2,000 who are listed on the Dublin Corporation list qualify for the scheme Deputy Moore will agree that it is a very good step forward. While the scheme is not perfect—it has not been tried yet—I am quite satisfied that it will be of great help to many people. I would ask Deputies to be a little more considerate and to give it a chance. It is obvious that an effort is being made to knock the scheme before it gets off the ground.
The Minister must seriously think of the people who have no houses and of the people who have no opportunity of getting houses and include them in it. Most of the people who will benefit have houses.
Questions, please.
Deputy Moore and some other people seem to have forgotten that last year Dublin Corporation got £12.7 million to re-house people. This year I added an additional £11 million to make it £23.7 million for re-housing. If people leave houses to be re-housed under this scheme houses will be available for others. Deputy Moore does not seem to appreciate that. This will be an improvement in spite of all the criticisms which some people in the Opposition are prepared to throw at it. This scheme is well worth while.
Will the Minister state how the scheme will operate in respect of those who had been approved the year previously for local authority houses, considering the fact that in most cases approval of individual applications is given only when houses are ready for allocation?
Deputy Faulkner will have to answer that himself. It seems to be one of those impossible questions. If somebody is approved for a house, I assume he is approved when the house is ready for occupation so that the person will go straight into the house and there is no problem. Perhaps Deputy Faulkner would rephrase the question, as it does not make sense at present.
In case the Minister thinks that there is something political about every supplementary I ask——
There is, as a matter of fact.
I am pointing out to the Minister that in accordance with this scheme if a person is approved a year previously for a local authority house he will be entitled to a loan under this scheme. Might I point out——
A question please.
——that a person is approved as a rule only when houses are ready for allocation?
Deputy Faulkner misunderstands the situation. When people apply for local authority housing a file is opened for them in a local authority office. Subsequently their applications are examined and it is decided whether they will be approved although the houses may not be available for them. When houses become available there is an advertisement and they must apply again but they are on the approved waiting list, having applied and having being considered eligible to stay there. Sometimes they are on that list for up to seven years, as Deputy Lynch said last year, before they are re-housed. We have pulled that down considerably since, although people, particularly in the Dublin area, are on the list for quite a long time. Once they are on that file they are considered eligible for loans.
Question No. 22.
(Interruptions.)
Order. Next question.
At least we have elicited some information.