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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 May 1977

Vol. 299 No. 10

Finance Bill, 1977: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Last week I was dealing with the Government's failures as illustrated in this Bill and previous Finance Bills and I was referring specifically to the amount of taxation the Coalition have put on petrol in their term of office. That evening I heard a radio programme in which a Welsh tourist spokesman was endeavouring to attract Irish tourists to Wales. He referred to comparative prices in the UK, and part and parcel of his campaign was what he called the comparatively enormous cost of petrol here.

It is a great change from Fianna Fáil days when one of the great things Bord Fáilte had going for them was that tourists from all parts of the world could be assured that such costs were less here than anywhere in the world, with the exception of Spain. Now the reverse is the case and it is the direct result of the Coalition's reneging on promises to stabilise prices and to halt inflation. I suppose they will be renewing such promises in the coming weeks and I cannot help reminding Deputies of the solemn statement in the House by the present Attorney General that nobody can be expected justifiably to believe promises made by party politicians. I hope the people will be mindful of that statement and the integrity of his colleagues in the near future when they make similar promises.

We have had statements from the Minister for Finance on the amount of money being provided to subsidise foodstuffs as a consequence of the devaluation of the green £. The taxpayer is paying an enormous sum to meet food subsidies but he still has to shoulder outrageous prices for all commodities. As Deputy Haughey has just said, the Irish taxpayer is taxed out of the world.

The Government were ill-advised in their allocation of time for the debate on this Bill. I agree that we have been debating its Second Stage for five days but it is most important that we would have adequate opportunity to examine it in Committee. The financial resolutions associated with it will be discussed this evening and we will have only from 10.30 a.m. and 1 p.m. tomorrow to debate Committee Stage. This is a disgrace

There is no provision in the Bill which will help to tackle inflation. We have been borrowing money consistently for non-productive purposes. We on this side do not regard it as improper to borrow money provided it is used intelligently but this Government have been borrowing money to be used to rub people in the right way, and that is not what I would call governing in the national interest. It is self interest. The Minister for Finance has no compunction about making outlandish statements. His only object is to be last to speak and the sky is the limit.

The Finance Bill, in itself, probably constitutes one of the greatest justifications in that it carries no provision for additional taxation. It could be construed as a step in the right direction but too little and too late. In this Bill the Minister is implementing something we have been endeavouring to persuade him to do for the past three years. The most extraordinary thing about the Minister is that, when we offer him advice, it is not accepted. It is Fianna Fáil advice and it cannot be any good—in the tradition to which the Taoiseach appealed on Saturday last, that of the hate relationship with Fianna Fáil. The Minister for Finance epitomises that hate relationship to such an extent that no matter what advice our spokesman on Finance may offer it is regarded as being ridiculous, nonsense, accounting for nothing and would have no beneficial effect. Yet, the following year, through the back door of the Finance Bill he has adopted the suggestions of Deputy Colley over the last three years, presenting them as his own brainwaves. There was the instance of our suggestions on food subsidisation and that made two years ago in relation to petrol. The extraordinary thing about the Minister is that, when he is offered a suggestion, he dodders with it for fear anybody would think it is somebody else's except that of the great little Minister for Finance and then he offers it as his ingenious idea.

I shall be anxious to make some points on Committee Stage. There might be some possibility of reaching them but it appears to be a fairly negative exercise. Napoleon was regarded as the little dictator. Whenever I read about him I think in terms of the Minister for Finance because he too makes up his mind that he is right and Waterloo is just around the corner.

For whom?

I shall not be too long to allow gentlemen across the floor to have a little say.

We gave them five weeks and they did not want it.

Deputy Colley raised a number of specific points. He referred to a provision in section 3, which is a technical amendment necessitated by the passing on 31st March, 1976 of the Corporation Tax Act, and asked three questions in relation to it. The first was: why was the amendment not included in the Corporation Tax Act? Secondly, why is the amendment to take effect from 31st March, 1976 and thirdly, has some case arisen in which the existing provision has been found to be defective?

I understand from the Minister that the answers to these questions—and I am somewhat interested in this Act because I was chairman of the Special Committee on it—are, to the first that an appropriate amendment was overlooked in the drafting of the Corporation Tax Act which repealed section 530 of the Income Tax Act, 1967. That section was concerned with a tax charge on undistributed income of certain private companies but was replaced by the new provisions in the Corporation Tax Act dealing with closed companies. Consequently, section 530 was repealed without adverting to the fact that in section 59 of the 1974 Act there was a reference to bodies corporate "within the meaning of section 530, subsection (6) of the Income Tax Act, 1967". This reference is meaningless since the passing of the Corporation Tax Act and is being replaced by a reference to closed companies. I hope that disposes of the first of Deputy Colley's questions.

The second question he asked was why is the amendment to take effect on 31st March, 1976. The answer is that the amendment is expressed to take effect on 31st March, 1976, that is, from the date on which the reference became inappropriate. His third question was: has some case arisen in which the existing provision has been found defective. The answer to that is that no case has come to light in which this reference has been of consequence.

Deputy Briscoe dealt with section 7 of the Bill and asked the number of people who would be removed from the tax net as a result of its provisions. I thought the Minister had dealt with that in his introductory speech on Second Stage. However, it is as well to clarify the position because many people are interested in it and there should not be any confusion. In his introductory remarks on Second Stage the Minister referred to the fact that 10,000 pensioners will benefit from the provision and that, of those, some 5,000 would be taken out of the tax net altogether. Deputy Briscoe made the additional point that a school warden who is also in receipt of a contributory old age pension could be chargeable to tax. As I understand the position, school wardens are paid at a daily rate of £3.72, that is £18.60 for a five-day week. The amount a warden can earn in a year depends on the number of days worked by him. However, if his earnings, together with his contributory old age pension, exceed the limits set out in section 7— that is, £1,000 for a single person and £1,800 for a married person—he will be chargeable to tax, subject to marginal relief where that is appropriate. That is a normal provision in tax laws where there is a figure mentioned for a higher level.

I understand there has been some criticism by the Opposition of income tax reliefs mentioned in the budget. One of the points grabbed in desperation from the sky by the Opposition was that they unduly favoured the higher paid and did not give sufficient relief to middle management. As I read it, the personal tax concessions include the removal of the temporary 10 per cent sur-charge imposed on the standard and higher rates in 1975. We all know that was a very difficult year. When account is taken of this factor, the balance of the reliefs do not unduly favour the better-off. Of course, the personal tax concessions must be considered in the context of the national pay agreement. What is important to employees in this context is not the reduction in tax payable but the combined increase in take-home pay arising from pay increases and tax concessions. In the case of a middle manager earning, say, £120 per week, the increase in take-home pay is 10.6 per cent if he is married. That is not significantly different from the 10.8 per cent increase applicable at the £200 a week level.

This amounts to the fundamental fact that this Government reduced the lower income tax rate from 35 per cent to 20 per cent. That is a drop of 15 per cent. The top income tax rate was reduced from 80 per cent to 60 per cent, a drop of 20 per cent. The most imaginative incentive ever given to people to work is to work and invest. People who are in the higher tax bracket have spent many years getting to that stage. Most of those people are people who are on in life, who have made sacrifices and have got themselves there by ability, hard work and application. Ability must be recognised if we want the proper brains in management in this country. No Minister for Finance and no Government need apologise for that principle. It is recognised the world over. Anybody who has looked at certain television programmes concerning the English labour and executive market had it driven forcibly home to him the other day when people changed their standing in society from being employees to setting themselves up in specially made mini-companies. That means that pay structure is going wrong somewhere. Therefore one must give fair reward for fair work and ability. That has been the principle stated by the Minister for Finance and by the Taoiseach on numerous occasions in this House and elsewhere.

Deputy Colley referred to the desirability for special treatment of loans for house purchases, particularly for young married couples. The Deputy probably had in mind that the limit of £2,000 allowed for interest payments on borrowings for the purpose of tax relief was not sufficient. The limit of £2,000 was imposed by the Finance Act, 1974, with effect from 10th January, 1974. In adopting that limit, the position of people buying their own houses was kept specially in mind. At the time the imposition of the limit was announced, 9th January, 1974, the building society rate was 11¼ per cent and £2,000 interest represented borrowings of almost £18,000 from building societies. In other words the £2,000 limit of interest would have covered borrowings up to £18,000 on a house purchase. Assuming a loan equivalent going up to over 80 per cent of the purchase price, a house costing over £22,000 could be bought with the aid of a loan the total interest on which would qualify for tax relief. One must bear in mind the fact that a fall in interest rates has occurred. It goes very close to restoring the position which existed in January, 1974. It would be unrealistic to regard the limit of £2,000 as any brake on the efforts of newly-weds to buy even a moderate priced house.

This new provision in the Finance Bill, the 25 per cent corporation tax incentive scheme, is completely new to the western world. It was a principle hard to conceive of and hard to execute and put on paper in legal language. Some Deputies have inquired about the general philosophy of the thinking behind the requirement of the two target increases, that is, the employment 3 per cent increase and the output 5 per cent increase. The incentive is designed to encourage manufacturing industry in creating employment. It is, therefore, logical to have the two tests for the incentive. This arrangement should encourage firms which can do so to undertake quickly genuine expansions. The incentive is necessary for results achieved. The existence of two tests both at quite reasonable levels should also have the incidental effects of making difficult any artificial manipulations not related to genuine enterprise or growth merely for the sake of qualifying for the 25 per cent rate of corporation tax concession. One of the difficulties that Ministers for Finance always have when they want to do good is that people do not think Ministers for Finance have the intention of doing good. There will always be wily merchants, lawyers and other experts ready to help those who are not within the spirit of the policy of the Minister. While increased output may automatically produce extra employment, this is a short-term measure designed to give an early and significant stimulus to the manufacturing sector in order to accelerate the economy's upward progress. It is reasonable to require minimum employment increases for firms seeking to qualify for the incentive in 1977, 1978 and 1979. The Bill confines the incentive to manufacturing industry because it is quite reasonable to look to that sector to play a basic and prime role in stimulating economic activity. The effects should be felt outside that sector. We all realise that there is always a wash-off from any progressive or productive activity. The services industry and others benefit from the main productive centre.

Some Deputies referred to cases where increases in output and employment were not maintained. The Minister's speech fairly adequately covered the basis of the incentive. This Bill sets a standard in judging where the baseline is. The year 1976 will be the standard year throughout the three years for established industry. The qualifying target levels will be announced year by year and qualification will be determined accordingly. Each year will be separately considered. The position of new manufacturing firms setting up in 1977 or subsequently is hardly likely to arise in connection with this incentive because of the large package of industrial tax incentives in some cases. If necessary, the Minister will probably propose to give further consideration to the matter in 1978 when the conditions for that period are being framed and likewise for 1979. It is the sort of proposal where there cannot be fixed rigidity. There are bound to be changes in markets and other conditions and in particular sectors of industry and perhaps also in relation to values or specific currencies where firms are trading which would have an effect on a particular company's wellbeing or growth prospects.

As regards tax credit, the proportion of company tax to be imputed to shareholders, the rate of 35 per cent which has obtained hitherto will obviously have to be looked at by reference to the new rates of corporation tax provided for in this Bill including, of course, the special temporary 25 per cent incentive rate. The Minister said this matter will be dealt with appropriately next year. As I said in my opening remarks dealing with this corporation tax incentive, it might be of some interest to Members of the House to know that, while we have initiated this new type of incentive, the American Administration at this moment are trying to copy or set up something on the same lines as the Minister has set up in this Bill. It must be a matter of pride to this House that an Irish Administration have broken new ground and that, with the advice of our public servants, we have done something completely new. This is rather flattering. Imitation is the best form of flattery.

In all modesty the Deputy should say he read the Fianna Fáil document of last September in which this was suggested.

I read a rather terrifying thing in a certain Fianna Fáil document quoted at a CII dinner, I think.

It is dangerous to believe quotations at dinners.

It was a very serious speech by the Opposition spokesman on Industry and Commerce who pooh-poohed the grants structure for the IDA setting up new industries. He felt we might be giving too much to foreign companies who are coming here and providing industries to give us employment.

Only when they were not labour intensive.

I did not read remarks to that effect.

That is what they were.

A little line was quoted from the Fianna Fáil policy document which made very unhappy reading. We must realise we are in a market. We are competing with other Governments to get industries into Ireland. Therefore, we must be in the race and make the right moves at the right time. The Government have made the right moves. This will be a great incentive to established businesses and new businesses.

As is natural, when one is dealing with taxation and finance in this House there is bound to be a reference to capital taxation. We have various sets of capital taxes. Some Deputies referred to reviews of capital taxation thresholds. It might be no harm to repeat a rather important statement made by the Minister for Finance on 15th May, 1974, in a speech to the Confederation of Irish Industry. He was speaking about wealth tax. I have been asked this question several times possibly because people knew I took some considerable interest in the working out of the Wealth Tax Bill and the run up debates to that Bill before it finally became law.

The Minister said thresholds will be reviewed every three years to take account of inflation and valuations initially agreed will remain valid for three years. That is a guarantee given by the Minister on the parity situation. That should be repeated because people are inclined to forget these things. When a Government have been in power for such a long time, you like to remind them of what was said earlier on in their term of office. Section 12 of the Wealth Tax Act freezes the agreed valuation of real property and unquoted shares for three years, that is, 1975, 1976 and 1977 in the first instance. In the circumstances, a remission of thresholds before 1978 would not be warranted and, taken in conjunction with exempted property such as private residences, bloodstock, farmers' livestock, woodlands, works of art, gardens, and so on, property whose valuation is frozen under section 12 represents a large percentage of wealth. These are what one would describe as fixed assets.

When that section was being debated, there was a very pressing request to the Minister to gear capital tax to some other method, an automatic evaluation. Every Member of the House must realise what has happened since May 1974, in relation to all the currencies of the world. They have virtually gone up and down like yo-yos. The various parities which then existed are things of the past, and a matter of wonderment when one looks back and sees what the then parities were, and when one looks back and sees where the flow of trade has gone. There has been a big change. One country which consumed 19 per cent of imported goods might have increased their consumption of imported goods to something like 30 per cent. It would then depend on where these goods come from. If you tag capital assets to the consumer price index with that sort of a background, you might get a very peculiar result. The fair suggestion as put forward by the Minister is that it is a matter for review in the light of the circumstances existing at the date when the review takes place in 1978.

As regards the other capital taxes, the White Paper on Capital Taxation at paragraph 122 states that a review of thresholds would be less necessary in the case of the threshold for liability to capital acquisitions tax by the immediate family in view of the high exemption figure proposed while, as regards proposed capital gains tax, allowance has already been made for the inflation factor by not subjecting these gains to the full progressive rates of income tax.

I want to make this quite clear. It may be a little difficult to take, but it is very short. On their re-election the National Coalition Government will honour their undertaking to review capital taxation thresholds. That says enough. I do not need to expand on it any further. I should like Deputies who are so keen on talking about rising prices and such matters to bear in mind that the cost of food in England has risen 30 per cent higher and faster than the cost of food here. Secondly, we, as the Government, removed VAT from the necessary daily foods for the average family.

I was very interested to hear Deputy Esmonde quoting from what I took to be the manifesto we may expect before the election. He said that on their re-election the Coalition Government will honour their promise to do something. Considering the fact that they issued a 14-point plan prior to the last election in which they promised to reduce prices, to control unemployment and to increase employment, and when we look at what has resulted from four years of Coalition Government, the public can hardly be expected to believe they will honour the promise mentioned by Deputy Esmonde or, in fact, any other promise.

One of the purposes of the Finance Bill is to increase taxation and permit of its collection. It is equally important to know how it is spent. We have seen during the past few weeks an advertisement in the newspapers by the Minister for Labour purporting to offer £20 a week to employers who reemploy people. We regard this advertisement as misuse of public funds. We said so in this House and we were very critical of it. Now I note that the Department of Local Government appear to find it necessary to publish large advertisements at this time, immediately before the election, about housing grants and certificates of reasonable value. I sincerely hope that the people will study these advertisements very carefully. They will find that a young man or woman wishing to buy or build his or her own home will get a grant from the Department of Local Government provided that his or her income is under £38 a week. I would be ashamed if I were in charge of a Department of State to advertise that no housing grant is now available to any person unless his income is below the princely sum of £38 a week.

I also note in the advertisement a reference to reconstruction grants for the improvement of houses. Under Fianna Fáil, reconstruction grants were available from the State irrespective of the valuation of a house and supplementary grants were available from the local authorities irrespective of income and the valuation of the house. The Minister for Local Government is advertising that from now on no reconstruction grant will be available in the city for houses over £20 valuation; no such grant will be available in the country for houses over £15 valuation or over £10 valuation in rural areas. It is extraordinary that the Department should find it necessary, just before an election, to publish this kind of advertisement. I hope that it will be read very carefully by the people so that they will see the enormous change since the days when Fianna Fáil were in office and grants were available to all, irrespective of income and valuation.

Year after year the Minister for Finance introduced budgets and Finance Bills, all of which increased the rate of inflation and were, therefore, responsible in themselves for price increases. Each budget and Finance Bill resulted in higher unemployment. In 1976 Fianna Fáil published their emergency economic document outlining the methods by which we proposed to get the economy back on an even keel. The Minister for Finance made derisory comments about this document almost before the ink had dried on it. He proceeded to adopt the ideas in it and tried to put them into effect in this year's budget and Finance Bill. It is fortunate that we published this emergency economic document because I am convinced, as are the people, that had we not published it the Minister would have continued with the type of budget he had introduced in previous years which increased inflation and unemployment. It was surely a conversion worth noting. Of course, the problem still remains that while his advisers recognise the merits in our proposals the Minister himself has neither the will nor the conviction necessary to effectively put these proposals into operation. It would clearly need the return of a Fianna Fáil Government to office to get the necessary drive and impetus behind these proposals so as to ensure that the benefits of which these proposals are capable will be achieved both in relation to controlling inflation and reducing unemployment.

Only a Government which know their own mind can effectively deal with the shocking mess in which we find ourselves after four years of Coalition Government, with escalating prices, exceptionally high unemployment and immense foreign debt. We have been pointing out for years that the major issues facing this country are unemployment and inflation but we have been doing very much more than that. We have been unique as an Opposition in that we published long before an election the remedies which we believe could effectively control these evils. As I pointed out earlier, some of these policies were stolen by the Government. A Government made up of groupings basically opposed to one another ideologically could not take the decisions necessary to overcome our problems. Instead of facing up to these problems they resorted to excuses, the main excuse being that the fault was not theirs and lay with external factors, the oil crisis and so on. It is a fact, as Deputy Colley clearly showed in his statement here and on the radio, that these excuses do not hold water. He pointed out that the increase in the price of petrol was due more to the extra taxation imposed by the Minister for Finance than to the Arabs or any outside factors.

There is in my view a very serious aspect of the matter. It is a psychological one which could retard our return to stability for quite a long time. If the Government continue to fall back on excuses rather than face up to the problems which beset the country, then the prospects of our overcoming our difficulties are nil. I believe it is vital that the Fianna Fáil Party, which produced quite a number of policy documents, should be returned to power in the next election so as to put the proposals in the emergency economic document into effect to bring down inflation and increase employment. This is essential at the present time.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but it is now 7 o'clock. I am, in accordance with the order made by the Dáil this day, putting the question: "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá. 71; Níl, 60.

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Halligan, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McDonald, Charles B.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Begley and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.

In accordance with the Order made by the Dáil this day, the Financial Resolutions must now be taken.

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