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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Oct 1977

Vol. 300 No. 10

Trustee (Authorised Investments) (No. 2) Order, 1977: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following Order in draft:

Trustee (Authorised Investments) (No. 2) Order, 1977,

a copy of which Order in draft was laid before the House on 4th October, 1977.

The Trustee (Authorised Investments) Act, 1958, defines the investments in which trustees may invest trust funds unless expressly forbidden by the instrument, if any, creating the trust. Equally, the trust deed may confer wider powers of investment but many trusts and analogous funds are restricted to the investments authorised under the Act. The Minister for Finance may vary the authorised investments by order.

The draft order now before the House for approval would add the five major Irish building societies, 19 non-Associated Banks, the Bank of Ireland Gilt Edged Unit Trust, and Securities of the European Investment Bank, to the authorised list.

It has been generally regarded as desirable for some time that trustee status should be accorded to building societies. The five societies named in the draft order are major financial institutions and their social importance as providers of finance to meet the community's housing needs is beyond doubt. These five societies, which together represent over 90 per cent of the resources of the building society movement are well established and have a proven operational record over a long period. Furthermore, the improved regulatory provisions in regard to societies effected by the Building Societies Act, 1976 provides an additional assurance that high standards of financial management will be observed in this area. I have agreed with the five societies on appropriate financial criteria to be observed by them in relation to trustee status. I am satisfied that they are suitable for addition to the trustee list.

I am also proposing to add deposits with 19 non-Associated Banks to the trustee list. I regard this as a necessary up-dating of the list, because as presently constituted, it remains in the form enacted by the Act of 1958, in so far as deposits with banks are concerned. Since then, however, the number of licensed banks operating in the State has increased considerably—to a total of 43—and a system of licensing and supervision by the Central Bank has been established under the Central Bank Act, 1971. The addition of suitable banks to the trustee list is desirable in order to equalise competition in the banking field. Furthermore, an increase in the number of banks in the trustee list, together with the other additions I am proposing, will considerably improve the range of investment opportunities open to trustees. I have consulted the Central Bank regarding banks which might be suitable for addition to the trustee list and the banks have recommended the 19 non-Associated Banks named in the draft order for addition to the list of authorised trustee investments. The addition of these banks will mean that the trustee list will include a total of 25 licensed banks comprising all the major domestic and foreign banks in the State. The list will remain under continuous rview and further changes can be made in the future if considered appropriate. In making its recommendations the Central Bank was concerned that there should be further opportunities to vary the list of authorised banks and I agree that this is desirable.

The Bank of Ireland Gilt Edged Unit Trust is registered under the Unit Trusts Act, 1972. The trust's investments are confined to Irish Government securities which are themselves trustee investments. The trustee of the scheme is the Bank of Ireland whose own stock is an authorised trustee investment. The trust has performed well since its inception in 1973. I am satisfied that it is appropriate for addition to the authorised list.

Finally, the draft order proposes to grant trustee status to securities issued in the State by the European Investment Bank. This is in fulfilment of a commitment entered into on our accession to the European Economic Community. The European Investment Bank, which was established by the member States under the Treaty of Rome, has as its primary responsibility the making of loans towards the financing of projects for developing the less developed regions of the Community, including Ireland. This country has received over £100 million in loans from the bank since joining the Community in 1973. The European Investment Bank has not sought to issue securities in the State to date and I do not expect that it will do so in the foreseeable future.

The Minister for Finance is obliged under the Trustee (Authorised Investments) Act, 1958, to consult with the following persons in regard to the terms of any order he proposes to make to vary the list of authorised investments—a Judge of the High Court nominated by the Chief Justice, the Governor of the Central Bank, the Public Trustee, the Chairman of the Irish Banks Standing Committee, the President of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland and the President of the Stock Exchange—Irish Unit. All the statutory requirements in this regard have been complied with.

In conclusion, I wish to confirm that I am satisfied that a trustee should be enabled to invest in the additions to the trustee list as proposed in the draft order. Many of them have been longawaited and will, I believe, be generally welcomed. I, therefore, commend the motion for the approval of the House.

I have no problem in agreeing with the motion and what the Minister is proposing to do. Obviously, the situation has changed greatly since 1958 when the list was drawn up, and I imagine that we will have more motions of this kind coming before the House as more institutions of the calibre mentioned in this order seek to have their names added to the list. I am sure some of the trustees are smiling rather cynically at the fact that they are now being allowed to have their names added at a time when interest rates are falling, and rightly I suggest. People were not allowed to avail of the high interest rates prevailing in the last few years. Like the mills of God, the mills of the Department of Finance in matters of this kind grind slowly, and that is only as it should be. Even though they had to wait to be allowed to invest in building societies or banks listed in the order, I think investors will agree that it is better that they can have confidence in the institutions with which they are concerned; it is better to ensure that the calibre of the institutions is of the standard laid down in the Trustees Act of 1958.

In essence, what the Minister is proposing is to widen the scope for possible investment under the 1958 Act. He made the point that any trustee, with the passage of this motion, will have wider powers of investment of any funds but that where a trust is designedly confined under the 1958 Act, it is limited and the purpose of the Minister here is to extend the areas in which such deed might apply.

I have one or two questions to ask. The Minister referred to the addition of the building societies as approved bodies for investment, and said that the five societies were complying with what he referred to as appropriate financial criteria to be observed by them in regard to trustee status. I should be obliged if he could tell us about some of the general criteria which he considers to have been met. I should also be obliged to him if he could give me the number of licensed banks operating in the State which are still not considered to be appropriate bodies for investment purposes under the Act. He authorises 19 of the 43 non-Associated Banks for inclusion. Which of the banks are still excluded? Will the Minister be considering in the near future any additional institutions for inclusion under this measure?

The Minister said that the Central Bank has been involved in recommending these additional bodies for investment purposes, and I should like to know whether the Central Bank is at present involved in discussions with any other non-Associated Banks in preparation for inclusion.

I thank the House for the welcome they have given to the motion. Basically, in dealing with matters of this kind one is inclined to reconcile two different requirements. One is to provide as wide a range as possible for investment trustees, and on the other hand one is trying to ensure that such investments will be safe when invested in authorised trustee securities. I believe we have achieved reconciliation of both these requirements in the bodies proposed to be added in this order.

As Deputy Barry said, it is true that there has been considerable delay in bringing this matter forward, but he appeared to realise that there would be certain advantages in that delay. I have outlined the fact that statutorily the Minister for Finance is obliged to consult quite a number of persons before bringing forward such proposals and, naturally, such consultations cannot be carried out very quickly, quite apart from the other aspect of the matter that Deputy Barry mentioned. The fact that certain building societies are being added when interest rates are falling is entirely coincidental.

I accept that.

I am sure the Deputy will agree that the timing of this was quite independent of interest rates. I should not like to bank very heavily on the prospect of interest rates remaining at their present level or, shall I say, not going higher for a very long time. This whole area is somewhat volatile and I suggest that nobody should bank heavily on stability of interest rates, certainly in the short term.

The Minister is becoming very wise.

I am sorry the Deputy said "becoming"—otherwise I accept it. Deputy O'Leary asked what were the criteria in regard to the five main building societies. Briefly, they are that the societies should have total assets of not less than £5 million. A society should have a liquidity ratio of at least 8 per cent and a reserve ratio as indicated by the Minister for Finance. It has been intimated to the societies that a 2½ to 3 per cent ratio would be a suitable goal to be achieved within a fairly short period. Another condition is that except with the Minister's permission, moneys owing in respect of deposits, loans and overdrafts shall not be secured by any prior charge on a society's assets. The final condition is that the trustee status may be withdrawn if a society ceases to comply with any of these conditions.

In fact, on the 1976 returns the five societies complied with the conditions, most of them very handsomely. The last condition I mentioned, about the possibility of withdrawing trustee status if the other conditions have not been met, will ensure that the conditions will be continually met because, of course, for a building society which has achieved trustee status to lose it would be disastrous. I think we can rest assured that the societies, if only in their own interests, will ensure that these criteria will be met in the future.

Deputy O'Leary also asked for the number of licensed banks not included in the trustee list. The number is 17. There is an annual review of the situation in respect of such banks. I cannot say with certainty the number of banks with whom discussions may be going on between them and the Central Bank in order to enable them to achieve inclusion in the list, but there is at least one.

Are the Departments involved in such consultations?

Not in the first instance. There are different criteria in respect of the inclusion of banks. The amount of assets required, and so on, is double that of the building societies. It is £10 million. The meeting of those requirements in the first instance is a matter for the Central Bank and, when they would be satisfied then, if the bank desired to be included, the kind of statutory consultation I have outlined would take place. As suggested by Deputy Barry, it would be desirable that financial institutions which reach the necessary standards should be included at more frequent intervals than in the past and in so far as that can be done it would be my intention to facilitate the inclusion of additional institutions which meet the requirements in the list of authorised trustee securities.

Question put and agreed to.
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