asked the Minister for the Environment if he will reconsider the Government's attitude to the £1,000 grant in respect of new houses in the light of the implications of that policy for city areas; if he is willing to consider extending that grant to first-time purchasers of all homes either new or second-hand, to encourage housing mobility and to allow greater freedom of choice to young couples as the present policy is a very active encouragement to young couples to move out of the city into new dormitory towns, many of which are not yet adequately serviced for family life; whether any study of the sociological implications of this policy has been made; and, if so, by whom and when.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - House Grant Scheme.
17.
I do not propose to alter the terms of the £1,000 grant scheme which applies to new houses and flats in any part of the country, including city areas. This scheme of grants for house purchase is in line with the Government's policy in assisting new house purchasers and stimulating activity in the house-building industry.
The proper way to help young couples and others who are owners of older dwellings is through a new scheme of house improvement grants as promised in the Government's election manifesto. I expect to announce details of such a scheme in the near future. The Government's decision to abolish domestic rates from 1st January next will also assist anyone who owns or wishes to purchase an older house in city areas or elsewhere. Regarding the final part of the question, I do not consider that any special study of Government policy in relation to this scheme, which is already achieving its objectives, is necessary.
Strictly in accordance with the terms of the question, could I ask the Minister to throw his mind back to another audio visual aid circulated and published prior to the election, which shows a full page advertisement and which speaks quite clearly of Fianna Fáil promising to give a £1,000 grant to first-time house purchasers? I ask the Minister to agree or deny that people all over the country believed Fianna Fáil would give £1,000——
That is a statement. Will the Deputy please ask a question?
It is an interrogative statement. I am asking the Minister is it the case that they promised to give a £1,000 grant to first-time purchasers of houses? That is clearly here in a statement made by Frank Dunlop who was the Fianna Fáil PRO at the time and they reneged on that. Am I wrong?
I do not agree with the Deputy. We did not renege on anything. It was never intended to give a new house grant for a house on resale. It never happened so long as I remember that any new house grant scheme applied to a resale. That is a reconstruction grant.
Deputy Tully.
Is the Minister now saying it was not widely propagated and widely believed that first-time purchasers of houses all over the country would get a £1,000 grant? I submit it was.
I disagree with the Deputy because it referred to new houses.
It did not. It is here in black and white. Does the Minister deny the advertisement?
The Minister is not responsible for what is there. I am calling on Deputy Tully.
The Minister is not responsible for what he promised.
(Interruptions.)
I want to ask a supplementary question on the second part of my question. The Minister said he does not believe sociological study is necessary. Does the Minister accept that no money will be going to young people in the city centre because houses are not being built there to cater for them and this is a recipe for people to emigrate from the city into the new surburbs? Does the Minister not believe this is a matter of serious social concern?
I would agree it must be a matter of serious social concern. The best way to deal with the city area to which he has referred would be by way of reconstruction grants because they are mostly old dwellings.
Many people do not own the houses. They reconstruct.
The Deputy is more familiar with the city, but he asked would I agree——
That is clear.
They should have equal opportunity to own their houses. We will hear more about this. I will not let it go at this.
I called Deputy Tully.
Would the Minister say if he has made any arrangements with regard to this £1,000 so that people who are purchasing a new house for the first time can use the £1,000 as a deposit, as the Taoiseach stated before the election, that this was one of the ways in which he expected it would be used? Will he explain how he expects that this £1,000 can be used as a deposit since it will not be paid until long after the house is occupied?
It will be paid when the house is occupied. That is correct.
The Taoiseach said on television he expected it would be used as a deposit. Will the Minister say if there is any intention of making arrangements to have it paid in advance so that it can be used as a deposit?
This is the first time since I took office that this question has been posed to me.
I agree with the Minister that there is no hope in the world of this being done.
In an attempt to answer the Deputy at this stage, the only thing I could suggest is that the fact that the person is approved for such a grant could be used as a collateral.
Has the Minister ever tried to use the term of a grant like that for collateral?
It has been done, I understand. I have not been approached on this matter.
Could I ask the Minister did he use the phrase "£1,000 in your hand" or did his colleagues use it, not the world "collateral"?
Surely that is a separate question.
A £1,000 grant.
Was the phrase "£1,000 in your hand" used?
(Interruptions.)
Broken promises.
They are all running for cover.
Does the Minister intend to introduce any other grant in respect of new houses and, if not, is he aware of the hardship caused to people whose houses are gone beyond reconstruction stage? They are not viable any more for reconstruction down in the country in some cases. Those people who up to now would be in receipt of a grant of £950 find themselves in receipt of nil.
Is the Deputy referring to reconstruction grants?
I am referring to houses which are gone beyond reconstruction stage where the only viable job is a replacement job. They get nothing.
In the case of a farmer with a family who owns his house which is a very old house and is now in disrepair, he cannot get a £1,000 grant because he owns the house.
That is not so. That man qualifies for the £1,000. An old farmhouse qualifies and this has been made clear already.
By whom?
It does not have to be uninhabitable. An old farmhouse which has been in the family for several generations qualifies for a new house grant.
Let me clarify this. Take the case of a man residing in a very dilapidated house, replacement of which is the only solution to his problem. If he owns the house and can produce the deeds to it, is he entitled to £1,000?
Yes. On the land.
(Cavan-Monaghan): I should like to be clear on this point. Am I right in thinking if the farmer in question bought or built the house in question, no matter how long ago, then he is not entitled to £1,000, but he is if he inherited it?
If he built the house it is probable that he has already availed of grants.
I have been allowing more than enough supplementary questions all of which are separate questions.
The Deputy is speaking about houses which are beyond repair.
Question No. 18.
(Cavan-Monaghan): I am making a genuine effort to clear up this point. If the farmer bought or built the house 40 years ago, and it is now falling around his ears, he is not entitled to £1,000.
He would be if it is a necessity of life for that man to have a proper dwelling. If the house is as bad as the Deputy said, that man is entitled to £1,000.
He is not a first-time purchaser.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Let the Minister tell me where that is in the scheme because I cannot see it.
If there is some mis-understanding about that I will have it made clear by way of publications.
Is the Minister aware that in the past week a man was refused a grant?
We cannot take individual cases. Question Time is for a different purpose.
If the Deputy has a specific case, he should bring it to my attention.
Does the Minister's reply to Deputy O'Toole refer to urban dwellers as well as to rural dwellers who have uninhabitable houses and who purchased them many years ago?
An uninhabitable house is usually condemned in an urban area.
I have called Question No. 18.
18.
asked the Minister for the Environment the number of people who have availed to date of the £1,000 grant for first-time purchasers of houses; and if he will give details of the amount by which this scheme exceeds the schemes previously in operation.
In the period from 6th July, 1977, when I announced the implementation of the £1,000 new house grant scheme, up to 28th October, 1977, a total of 5,020 applications were received for the £1,000 new house grant. Of these, 835 were approved, 18 paid and 155 rejected. The remaining applications are being processed and I expect that the great majority of them will be approved.
It would be most misleading to compare the £1,000 grant with the varying amounts payable under the previous scheme which, unlike the new grant, were governed by a restrictive means test which debarred the majority of new house purchasers from obtaining any grant.
Could the Minister say what has happened to the other grants? Is this the only grant from his Department?
For a new house?
Yes.
(Cavan-Monaghan): That is gone.
(Interruptions.)
Since 14th October.
What grant is available for a secondhand house.
For the purchase of a secondhand house?
Yes.
None.
What grants were available before the Minister came into office?
For the purchase of a secondhand house a person usually gets a loan.
A loan is not a grant.
The Deputy asked me what grants were available.
I asked the Minister was there a grant——
The Deputy asked me was there a grant available for——
Question No. 19. This is reducing Question Time to nonsense. I will not allow this dialogue across the House.
I am trying to elicit information from the Minister.
The Deputy asked me what grant was available for the purchase of an existing house. I never heard of any grant from any Department to purchase an existing house. Before I became Minister I was a practising auctioneer, and I would love the Deputy to tell me, if one buys a secondhand house at an auction or otherwise, where one would get a grant for that purchase.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Is it not a fact that in some cases the Minister has substituted a £1,000 grant for a £900 grant. That is the end result of what the Minister has done in some cases.
Six per cent of the grant applications up to 30th June qualified for a £900 grant.
They will get nothing any more.
If they are building a new house they will get £1,000.
What about second-time purchasers?
For resale?
No, for a new house.
What happened to the grants that were paid before for a second-time purchase of a new house?
The Deputy was referring to grants for the purchase of an existing house, in other words, what is known as a resale.
I am talking about a person who buys a new house for the second time, a person who bought one house, whose family has got bigger and who purchases a new house which is bigger. What has happened to this grant?
He will not get the £1,000 but at least——
Will he get any grant?
Does the Deputy want me to answer the question? He will not qualify for the £1,000 but he has the opportunity of selling his house at a good profit if he is moving to a better dwelling.
Does the Minister agree that this person has lost a grant that was already there?
A man moving from one house to another, having got a grant for the first house, did not always qualify for a grant for the second house.
There was some chance in the past that he would. Now there is none.
I want this argument to cease.
They did not always get it.
Would the Minister please answer Question No. 19?