asked the Minister for Education if he has any proposals to prevent the closure of city centre schools.
20.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dublin School Closures.
19.
asked the Minister for Education if he will make a comprehensive statement on his policy in relation to the closure of schools in the centre of Dublin city.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 19 and 20 together.
I could not have proposals as suggested in respect of the closure of secondary schools which are private institutions. In the case of the closure of a secondary school appropriate action is taken to find alternative school accommodation for the pupils deprived of places as a result of the closure. This action would include grant-aiding existing secondary schools to expand, providing additional accommodation in existing or proposed community or vocational schools, or making the relevant arrangements for the provision of additional schools.
I should like to ask the Minister to tell the House what consultations took place between his Department and the private school authority? What steps will he take in the Department to ensure that the school might be retained for use as a school under lay management in order that the sociological damage which could be done to the children due to the closure is avoided? That will also avoid the question of transport to other areas.
The Minister has no power to keep a school open. The school is a private institution and under the Constitution the people who own it are entitled to sell it as they see fit.
Is it the practice of the owners of secondary schools to notify the Minister for Education of their intention to close? Has the Minister received any notification in relation to any of the schools which we have discussed?
I submit that that is a separate question. I have had talks with some of the schools concerned. In the case of one of the schools mentioned a final decision to close it has not been taken and, consequently, my answers cannot be as categorical as they would were the decision taken already to close the school.
Would the Minister agree that the reason they are closing is because there is discrimination by way of grants to them? The balance between a community school and these schools is nearly two to one and in my view that is the reason they are closing.
The size of the grants has no bearing on decisions with regard to the closing of the schools.
Is the Minister aware of the serious sociological and educational damage that can be done to children because of school closures? Will he take every positive step to avoid such closures?
That does not arise on this question.
I have evidence which will show that the Minister's statement that the grant system has no bearing whatever is not factual in the city areas.
21.
andMr. Keating asked the Minister for Education if he will make a statement on the possible closure of Eccles Street School, Dublin.
22.
asked the Minister for Education if he is aware of the widespread concern felt at the announcement of intent by the Sisters of the Holy Faith to close Dominic Street Convent, Dublin, in a phased manner finishing in 1981; and if he will take steps to persuade the Holy Faith Order to keep this large and popular convent open.
23.
asked the Minister for Education if consultations took place with his Department prior to the decision to close Eccles Street School, Dublin; if he is aware of the reduction in the number of secondary schools in the city centre; and if his Department have any remedial action under consideration.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 21, 22 and 23 together.
I am aware of the concern felt in relation to the question of the possible closure of these two schools. I must accept, however, that a decision in the matter is one for the individual school authorities and I do not consider that it would be open to me to act as suggested in relation to the Holy Faith Convent School, Dominic Street. I should also point out that a final decision has not yet been taken to close Dominican Convent School, Eccles Street and, accordingly, a statement in relation to possible remedial action in the eventuality of such closure would be premature at this stage. I may say, however, that I have had discussions with the authorities of Dominican College School, Eccles Street, during the course of which all aspects of the difficulties which would arise for pupils, parents and teachers as a consequence of the closure of the school were adverted to.
Is the Minister satisfied with the position whereby the statutory responsibility he referred to some moments ago is apparently left to considerable chance in the circumstances outlined? Is he willing, if the inevitability in the Minister's apparent thinking comes about, and this school closes——
I did not say anything about inevitability. I said there was no decision on that particular school.
I may have misinterpreted the Minister. Would he be willing to consider the possibility of bidding for or purchasing this school and retaining it as an open educational institution? Let the management of the school be lay, mixed or otherwise, but retain it as an important local educational centre.
That is an entirely separate question.
It is a separate question.
It is a separate question. The Deputy is asking if the Minister will buy the school.
I am asking this in relation to the closure of the school. The Minister has not answered the question I asked.
The Chair has no control over that.
If, when the Minister has had discussions with those schools, one of the problems is finance, will he provide money for them? I do not know why they are closing but I hear it could be for financial reasons.
: That is a statement.
Will the Minister put up money for those schools if it is a question of finance?
I want to assure the House that I am committed to the adequate financing of voluntary secondary schools as stated in the party's election manifesto. I want to say also that the death of any school is painful to me and that the problems of the pupils and of the staff are problems which affect me quite closely. I will, on the one hand, proceed to make adequate provision for the pupils and, on the other hand, try to provide as many job opportunities as possible for the staff.
Can the Minister say, in the case of the Dominican College, Eccles Street, that there is no need for the great anxiety of the parents in the area in the event of this school closing down?
I can assure the House that it will be my duty to see to it that the pupils will be provided with places.
24.
asked the Minister for Education the action he proposes to take to protect the quality of the education in the phasing out period of schools which recently announced their intention to close; and if he considers that a drop in morale by teachers and students over the period involved could do irreparable educational damage.
25.
asked the Minister for Education the action the Government proposes to take in order to protect the interest of the school children attending the schools in Dublin city which recently announced their intention of closing.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 24 and 25 together.
In circumstances where schools are closing on a phased basis my Department make every reasonable concession to ensure that a school will continue to have a sufficient number of teachers on the staff to provide instruction in the necessary range of subjects. I consider that such arrangements are also required for the purpose of maintaining morale among teachers and students.
I would not like to get this question confused with the other issues. I am talking about the situation where there might be a phasing out period, over a number of years. Would the Minister accept that there is a strong possibility that the educational environment of the school, because of the natural lack of morale and other reasons, would tend to deprive those inner city children more than they are already deprived, as I tried to point out earlier?
The Deputy seems to have an aptitude for repetition.
It only seems to occur when I ask a question.
I see the Deputy's point. The rules will be bent in such a way that the schools can be staffed and morale kept up to the highest pitch that is possible in the circumstances. I can assure the Deputy of that. As was mentioned already, the idea is to phase out, and this may cause anxiety and also cause staffing problems. However, I will not adopt any kind of doctrinaire approach with regard to staffing in those circumstances.
Would the Minister not agree that the problem of the closure of a school is greater than the sum of the problems of finding places for the pupils and places for the staff? The breaking up of an educational community is involved here.
I accept that view.
Can the Minister indicate what contact he or his Department have with the pupils and the parents of the pupils in schools which are closing over a period with a view to reassuring the pupils and the parents of their continued education?
(Interruptions.)
There is no answer?
The question was asked three times already.
26.
asked the Minister for Education the Government's attitude to the future uses of the heavy investment from public funds now latent in schools which have either closed recently or may close in the future; the total amount involved approximately in the three most recent inner-city schools; and his proposals with regard to such moneys.
31.
asked the Minister for Education if he will insist, as a condition of making State funds available to any educational institution in the future, that such an institution will not cease to provide education or sell its premises without his prior consent.
43.
asked the Minister for Education if any grants or loans payable to secondary schools by his Department are made subject to a condition that the school concerned shall remain in existence for a specified minimum period of time; the type of loan or grant concerned and the nature of any such conditions; and the estimated number of secondary schools which have accepted such grants subject to such conditions.
: With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 26, 31 and 43 together.
Grants towards the cost of the erection and major improvement of national schools are sanctioned subject to the condition that in each case the premises are vested in trustees by an official lease. The lease provides that at all times for the duration of its term a national school will be maintained on the premises. In the event of default on the part of the trustees in the matter of compliance with the terms of the lease, the Minister for Education may require a refund of the full amount of the grants paid.
The building grants scheme for secondary schools provides that the school building in respect of which a grant under the scheme is made, or the school building together with the extension in respect of which a grant under the scheme is given, shall be continued and maintained in good order for a period of 99 years as a secondary school fulfilling the conditions for recognition prescribed from time to time in the Rules and Programme for Secondary Schools and the conditions and regulations for the payment of grants to secondary schools. In the case of default a repayment shall be made to the Minister of such amount, not exceeding the amount of the grant, as the Minister may determine.
358 schools have been given grants under the secondary schools' building grants scheme in accordance with the terms of the scheme as outlined.
No building grants were paid to Maria Assumpta School or Holy Faith Convent School, Dominic Street. Grants totalling £5,200 approximately were paid to the authorities of Dominican Convent School, Eccles Street, in the period 1967-70. A repayment of these grants would not be required in the event of the closure of the school in view of the minor nature of the works involved.
Was the 99 years condition which the Minister refers to in relation to grants to secondary schools a condition which was asked for in respect of that £5,000?
It only refers to major grants. I have not a breakdown of what type of grant the £5,200 refers to.
Would the Minister not agree that the requirement by his Department to pay back the grant in the event of the school ceasing to be a school is a totally inadequate sanction given to the Department in order to ensure continuity in education in any particular school, especially in regard to the high valuation of centre city properties? Would he not agree that some stronger sanction needs to be imported into the grants scheme?
I do not know what premise the Deputy's question is based on. If you have not given any grants at all you are dealing with a property which is as private as your own private house. I cannot understand how the Minister can have any power whatsoever in that circumstance. With regard to a grant of £5,200 in relation to a very valuable property I do not think it would make a significant difference to have a refund of £5,200.
That depends.
Would the Minister not accept that Question No. 31 refers to making State funds, in the general term, available and that teachers' salaries would come under this general heading of State funds, and also capitation grants? Would he not agree that there should be adequate safeguards for the public money which he, as trustee for the State, has invested in those schools?
I do not accept that teachers' salaries are relevant in this situation. They are paid to individual teachers for their own use and benefit. That is the most ridiculous suggestion I ever heard in the House.
Is the Minister satisfied with the safeguards which exist at the moment in relation to the payment of State grants to educational institutions?
Ninety-nine years will see me out.
(Interruptions.)
Is it not the situation that they pay back the money?
27.
asked the Minister for Education if he will give an assurance that there are no further Dublin city school closures pending; if his Department have any form of early warning system in relation to school closures; and if any survey of other schools' intentions has been carried out.
I am not in a position to give such an assurance though I have no reason to anticipate such an occurrence. My Department are dependent in such circumstances on the co-operation of school authorities. A formal survey as suggested in the question from the Deputy would not in my opinion serve to achieve the purpose which he has in mind.
May I put it to the Minister as strongly as possible that what he has just said is totally unsatisfactory? Is he saying to the House that his Department are not sufficiently interested in the education of our children to get in touch with those schools, to survey what is the likelihood of there being stable educational institutions in the next period of time, years or generations, in order to help him to put together a policy for education for urban areas in the future? Is that not the height of common sense?
My Department has a policy for post-primary schools in Dublin city as of now and we will cope with any problems which may arise from circumstances that are now mentioned. I can assure the Deputy that in the particular area of this city which is north of the Liffey we have an expensive programme for development and we will be capable of dealing with all the pupils who are seeking post-primary places in that area. We are quite confident of that and I would like that confidence to go from this House to pupils, parents and teachers.
The remaining Questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.
Is it not the position that this afternoon the Minister is not aware of the fact that any school is closing down?
Question Time is over.
The Minister told us, I admit with very assertive self-confidence——
Absolute confidence.
Item No. 6.
The point is that I had to tell the Minister this afternoon that one of the schools in this city is closing down.
Will the Deputy resume his seat?
And we will replace all the places that are lost and another one on top of that if required. That is the strength of this confidence.
In the locality?
In the locality.
I will have to ask the Deputy to leave the House if he does not resume his seat.
These are the facts.
I must ask the Deputy to leave the House if he does not obey the Chair. Question Time is over.
Could I indicate that I am prepared to accept a written answer to Question No. 45?
Yes.