Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Mar 1978

Vol. 304 No. 8

Adjournment Debate: Navan Vocational School.

Mr. Bruton

On the adjournment of the Dáil I should like to raise the matter of the provision of a new vocational school at Navan. I do so for three reasons. Firstly, I believe that a new vocational school should be provided in the form of a new building on a new site which has been purchased by the previous Government on the Trim Road at Navan in or about a mile. maybe less, from the existing site. A new building should be provided there and it should not be in the form of an extension at the existing site at Abbey Road.

Secondly, the present uncertainty about whether or not the extra new building will be provided on the Abbey Road or the Trim Road is inhibiting planning. One cannot commence the planning of any school until one knows which site it is on. At present it is my understanding that it is not known whether the new building will be erected on the Trim Road or on the Abbey Road site. It is impossible for the vocational education committee or for anybody else to commence drawing up plans and detailed specifications for the building until they are aware of which site is to be used. I am hoping that in reply to my contribution the Minister will announce a decision.

Minister for Education (Mr. Wilson)

Will the Deputy withdraw the false statement?

Mr. Bruton

If I can succeed in getting the Minister to announce a decision in the House I shall be happy that I have achieved my objective in raising the matter. My third reason for having the matter debated this evening is that on the second last occasion on which the question was discussed here the Minister seriously and on two separate occasions accused me of making a false statement.

Mr. Wilson

And truthfully.

Mr. Bruton

In making that accusation the Minister was the one making the false statement, a statement which he as Minister with access to the files, had reason to know was a false statement. I shall deal now with the first point and in this context I quote from the Minister's reply to my question on 16 November 1977 as reported at column 1075, Volume 301 of the Official Report. The Minister said:

In a letter received in the Department on 2nd April, 1976, the Chief Executive Officer of the committee indicated that they wished to acquire a site on the Trim Road from Meath County Council.... On completion of negotiations the purchase of the site was approved in April, 1977, as part of a package deal involving the purchase and sale of lands and the disposal of the old vocational school in Dunshaughlin.

Would the Minister say for what purpose a Government Department, namely the Department of Education, would concern themselves with the approval of the purchase by the vocational education committee of 16 acres of land but for the building of a school? I am not aware that it is a practice of vocational education committees to buy 16 acres on the edge of a town for the purpose of entering into land speculation or of setting up a small farm. It is clear, as it was clear then, to all the parties concerned—indeed it has been clear from the time in April 1976 when the question of the purchase of this land was raised by the committee—that the land was intended to be used for the provision of a new school. The previous Minister for Education approved the purchase of the site. He approved the expenditure involved so that the land could be acquired. The then Minister would not have sanctioned the expenditure had the site not been intended to be used to provide a new school.

That was the position in April 1977 when we left office so it was not possible for us to go beyond the approval of acquiring the site. For instance, it was not possible for us to have drawn up the plans for the school, to advertise for tenders or to go through any of the other various procedures that would have followed. In the normal course of events it would have been for the Minister now in office or then in office to proceed to the next stage. The most important decision, that of acquiring the site, had been taken. We all know how much that sort of land costs nowadays. But then the bomb-shell was dropped. I do not know whether the present Minister was aware of what was happening. I have no wish to comment on his knowledge of the operations of his Department but I can best illustrate what happened by quoting——

Mr. Wilson

Will the Deputy be precise?

Mr. Bruton

——from a reputable and independent journal whose reporter covered the proceedings of the County Meath Vocational Education Committee on 10 October 1977. This is the way the reporter saw the situation. I quote from The Meath Chronicle of 15 October 1977:

Navan Tech. Shock

The news that the Department of Education favours an extension to the Abbey Rd. technical school at Navan rather than the erection of a completely new school on a sixteen-acre site at Trim Rd. shocked members of Meath Vocational Education Committee at their meeting on Monday.

In the course of a lengthy letter the Department stated that it had been found necessary——

mark these words

——to re-examine the position arising out of a recent review of the school's enrolment which, they claimed, was not going to grow as quickly as was anticipated.

They are talking about Navan which is the fastest growing town in Ireland. The quotation continues:

The letter added that the Department was satisfied that a viable school for 800 pupils in addition to an extensive tarmacadam play area and, when sanctioned, a sports hall could easily be provided on the existing school site and on a substantial addition to the site.

The Department's rethink was strongly opposed by virtually all of the members who have been pressing for a new school in Navan for some time because of the phenomenal growth of the town and the acute accommodation problem in the existing building.

It is particularly important to draw attention to that report. First, there is the word "re-examine" in the Department's letter to the committee. That word is very important. There is also the interpretation of the meeting by the reporter concerned and, presumably, by members of the committee who described the Department's position as a rethink, implying clearly that the previous position was different from the one adumbrated in the Department's letter.

The next step in this saga was a question put by me to the Department of Education and answered on November 16. Perhaps this is the most telling quotation of all in relation to the Minister's making a false statement. I asked the Minister, as reported at column 1075 of the Official Report for that date:

if he has reversed the previous policy of providing a complete new vocational school at Trim Road, Navan, County Meath; and, if so, why.

Although the Minister had three days' notice during which time he could have denied the implications contained in the question, he chose not to deny them and he replied as follows:

The question of the erection of new vocational school buildings at An Uaimh is at present being considered by my Department in consultation with the County Meath Vocational Education Committee.

The Minister did not deny the implication in the question that he had reversed the previous decision.

Mr. Wilson

The reason I did not deny it was that there was no decision.

Mr. Bruton

I went on to ask him a further question as if to make assurance doubly sure. I quote further from the Official Report.:

Is the Minister not aware that a decision was taken by the previous Government to build the school on an extensive site and since he came into office the vocational education committee have been told that they must build the school on a small existing site which has inadequate provision for playing fields and provides no scope for the expansion of pupil numbers beyond the original projected estimate of 800 in a town where there are great prospects of an expanding population in the years ahead?

If that contains a false statement, as the Minister now claims it does, what would one have expected his reply to be? Of course, a denial of the alleged false statement. Let me quote what the Minister said in response to that question. He said:

I believe the Deputy is right.

In case anybody might think that the Minister had made this statement, which he need not have made, agreeing with what I had said, without due thought—he was a Minister for a number of months at this stage and had time to think—I asked him:

Has the Minister read the brief?

He answered:

I have read it fully.

He further said:

I know exactly what is involved and I am stating that the question of providing an adequate vocational school in Navan is under active consideration in my Department.

The Minister said he had read the brief fully and he knew exactly what was involved. He also said that he believed I was right when I asked him if he was aware that a decision was taken by the previous Government to build the school on an extensive site and since he came into office the vocational education committee had been told that they must build a school on a small existing site.

I do not have to quote from Department files, to which I do not have access, and I do not have to quote from my own recollection. I have merely to quote from what the Minister said in the House on the second last occasion on which this matter was raised, that I was right in what I said, that he had read the files and he knew exactly what was involved. I would like to refer further to what will actually happen. I further pressed the Minister on the matter and asked him:

Has the Minister an open mind as to whether the site will be the 16-acre site at Trim Road or the site in the centre of the town?

He then answered "Yes" although his Department had said previously in a letter to the Meath VEC that they had decided to re-examine the position. The Meath Chronicle in their report of the matter did not head it in a critical manner towards the Minister but in a manner which expressed pleasure that he had an open mind on what was previously thought to be a matter on which he had a closed mind.

He changed his ground yet again, which seems to be something he is quite good at doing, when questioned about the matter in my supplementary questions to Question No. of 7 March when I asked him:

How long does the Minister propose to wait before he makes up his mind about providing this new school?

Previously the Minister has said he had an open mind. On that occasion he said:

I have already made up my mind with regard to the siting of the school on certain conditions.

This is a very important question, probably more important to the people of Navan than whether the Minister or I made a false statement, I would like to ask the Minister what are the certain conditions on which he has made up his mind as to the siting of the school and in what direction he has made up his mind? I would like him to answer those questions clearly. He said he has made up his mind and he has said there are certain conditions. That was not the situation on 16 November. It presumably is the situation now. I would like to know what the situation is and if he has communicated his new decision on the matter to the Meath Vocational Education Committee so that they can proceed with plans. If he has not communicated his new found decision-making ability and his new found decision in the matter to the Meath Vocational Education Committee why has he not done so?

I should like to sum up the matter briefly. I can draw upon two sources in substantiating what I have said. First, the Minister's own words in agreeing with what I said on a previous occasion in this House on the record of the House and, secondly, the report of the Meath Vocational Education Committee meeting in The Meath Chronicle of the week ending 15 October, which clearly conveys that the Department's circular read at that meeting involved a change of position, that the Department were, to use the words of the report “re-examining the position.”

The Minister alleged in his statement, in case he might try to wriggle out of what he said by going back on the report:

The last time we referred to this matter here Deputy Bruton made a false statement about the vocational school in Navan.

Mr. Wilson

He did.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy and Minister. The Chair does not like the use of the word "false". Maybe I am wrong in that but I would prefer if both sides would use "an inaccurate statement" or "a statement not in accordance with the facts."

Mr. Bruton

I find myself in complete agreement with you. It is most regrettable that those words were used and in using them I am quoting what the Minister said. I am not using them on my own account. I did not make a false statement on this occasion. The Minister, to substantiate his statement that my statement was false went on to say:

I have had the files examined carefully and no decision has been recorded in the Department of Education during the councilship of my predecessor about the location of that school on the new site on the Trim road.

I have no access to the files of the Department of Education. I cannot read them today, tomorrow or any other day. The Minister alone can. I ask him to answer this question. If the previous Government had not decided to locate a new school on the Trim Road in Navan why would they have gone to the expense and bother of buying 16 acres a considerable distance away from the existing school on the Trim Road if it were not to buy a new school? I do not know whether or not the decision is recorded on the master file in the form of a decision actually to commence building the school. I did not ask in my original question: "Has the matter been recorded in the Department in the form of a decision to commence building the school, to advertise for tenders or anything like that"? I merely asked him if it was decided that a new school would be provided, not if the further formalities had been gone into.

Minister for Education (Mr. Wilson)

It is a tradition in most Parliaments that when somebody makes a statement which is not in accordance with the facts that person will have the guts and gumption to come before the House and correct the statement and put it on the record properly. If the Deputy had been as assiduous in his pursuit of a vocational school for Navan when he was in office in this Department, as his colleague Deputy Fitzsimons is now, in the interest of his town, I have no doubt the work would have got under way a lot more quickly than they did. It is evident that his statement is not in accord with he facts from a memo which was on his desk on 14 November 1975 in which the following words occur——

Mr. Bruton

1975?

Mr. Wilson

Yes. The Deputy will not interrupt me. He is not a dictator. He is an arrogant man but he will not dictate to me. The building unit of my Department pointed out, however— Deputy Bruton had this on his desk and it was initialled on 14 November 1975—that if a new site were acquired the committee would have to accept a two campus situation as the existing building was an excellent one and its life would have to be worked out. Deputy Bruton does not like 1975, and if I were responsible for the deeds of his Government in 1975 I would not like to recall it either. I would refer the Deputy to the time when he was going to have to answer for his stewardship to the people of County Meath on 16 February 1977. On that date a note to the Parliamentary Secretary stated that in relation to Navan Vocational School arrangements to initiate the physical planning of the new extension would be made as soon as the site had been acquired. Deputy Bruton, in dramatic and courtroom fashion, is asking the House what would Meath Vocational Educational Committee acquire the site for if not for a new school. They were acquiring it for an extension, in accordance with the policy of the Government at that time. Deputy Bruton has the brass neck to come in here and say that a decision was taken by his Government to build a new school, when all the documentation available in this office shows that what was in question was not a new school but an extension. That is what the decision of the then Minister and the then Government was

Mr. Bruton

An extension on a new site.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton, please.

Mr. Wilson

Deputy Bruton in his contribution said that a decision was made by the Government to build a new school on the site on the Trim road. I am glad the Deputy pays me the tribute of saying that I have an open mind. I have such an open mind but the previous Government had no such open mind on this matter, and pointed out that the school was a new school as it existed in Navan, and could not be disposed of, and that what was acquired on the Trim road was acquired to extend the school in Navan, in fact to build a junior school there while the existing school would be used for senior pupils. I put it to Deputy Bruton that he knew that as well as anybody in my Department, or if he did not know it he should have known it. The Deputy should apologise to the House for making a statement which I may not call false——

Mr. Bruton

The Minister did before.

Mr. Wilson

——in deference to the ruling of the Chair, but which was not in accordance with the facts. It is very good to quote from The Meath Chronicle; it is very good to say that Navan was shocked. I contend that Navan should be shocked at the indolence of a Parliamentary Secretary to a Minister for Education who when in power did nothing at all about this matter but who develops a sudden enthusiasm when the people of Meath decide to elect a Deputy in Navan who will see to it that vocational education is adequately catered for in his home town.

Mr. Bruton

We bought a 16-acre site, which was the only thing done by any Government.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton, please.

Mr. Wilson

The question of the purchase of the 16-acre site is not at issue. The site was purchased—there is no doubt about that—by the Meath Vocational Education Committee. The point at issue is what it was purchased for. I related two memos sent to Deputy Bruton which were on his desk in the Department of Education and which showed him quite clearly the purpose for which the new site on the Trim road would be used. Deputy Bruton shows limited understanding when it suits him. The new site was purchased by the Meath Vocational Education Committee and negotiations were going on during the previous administration as to how vocational education would be best catered for in the town of Navan. The proposition before the Government, the only one before the Government in Deputy Bruton's time, was to use the site for the building of a junior school on the Trim road and the development of the existing site for the senior school. There has always been a question of buildings on the site in Navan town which are worth in the region of £200,000 and what was to be done with those buildings. The open mind part of the discussion is explained in that tomorrow I will start building a whole new vocational school on the Trim site——

Deputy Bruton

Good.

Mr. Wilson

——provided we can get a purchaser for the existing building in the town. The news has already been conveyed to a number of people who showed an interest and who wrote to me about it. The Deputy knows that as well as I. My statement in this House in November when the question was first raised, and which I repeated last week when Deputy Bruton repeated that the previous Government had made a decision to build a new vocational school in Navan on the Trim road site, that he was saying something which was not in accordance with the facts of the situation still stands. The Deputy may for his own political reasons issue statements to his local papers.

The new site was acquired by the Meath Vocational Education Committee. The people who are involved in vocational education in County Meath are concerned to have the best possible bargain. They now have a Government which is committed to education, unlike the previous Government. The records of the advances made by the previous Government are there. The people of Meath showed in the way they voted that they are assured that this Government will discharge their responsibilities better than the Government which hummed and hawed between the Trim road site and the town site and made no decision with regard to building a total vocational school on the Trim road site during their term of office.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 14 March 1978.