asked the Taoiseach if, at his recent meeting with the British Prime Minister, he discussed with the latter the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference to increase the number of Northern Ireland seats in the Westminister Parliament from 12 to 17, which recommendation has since been accepted by the British Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Meeting with British Prime Minister.
1.
My views on the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference are well known to Mr. Callaghan to whom I expressed concern at our meeting last September on the grounds that implementation could be regarded as evidence of greater integration. I obtained a firm assurance that there was not a scintilla of a move towards integration and, further, the Prime Minister expressed the view that the British people would not agree to such a move. The Copenhagen meeting looked back to that occasion.
In the short term, I am satisfied that proposals for a system of limited devolution of powers to an elected body remain on the table and that British policy is to achieve a devolved administration involving power sharing, participation or partnership— however described—on a basis acceptable to both sections of the community in Northern Ireland.
Ultimately, however, I remain firm in my belief that the only basis for a just and lasting peace there and for the social and economic progress of which the area is capable, is in the coming together of the people of this island in reconciliation and under agreed structures. I believe that a British declaration favouring such a move would help greatly to make it a reality.
In the report which he gave to the House on the September meeting the Taoiseach said he was pleased to have received an assurance from the British Prime Minister that there was not a scintilla of a move towards integration. Surely that is not in accordance with the acceptance now by the British Government of the Speaker's Conference recommendation for increased representation at Westminister for Northern Ireland?
I do not think that I can accept that interpretation of the statement made to me and the assurance given by the British Prime Minister in September. The outcome of the Speaker's Conference then was anticipated as being what eventually it turned out to be and I do not feel there is any contradiction of what the Prime Minister said to me then in what has happened since.
Is the Taoiseach of the opinion that increased representation for Northern Ireland at Westminister is not a move towards integration?
This is a separate question.
It most definitely is not.
At the time, I indicated to the Prime Minister that some feelings had been expressed that the Speaker's Conference might be a move in that direction and, as I have indicated already, the Prime Minister denied this and I accepted that assurance without equivocation.
Does the Taoiseach not agree that in his statement to the House on the 28 September meeting— this was before he embarked on his statement to the effect that there was not a scintilla of a move towards integration—he said by way of preface that this impression had been created by the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference which up to that time had not been accepted by the British Government?
I said at that time, and I have done so since, that there was an apprehension among people in Northern Ireland that the holding of the Speaker's Conference might indicate a move in the direction of greater integration, and that was one of my primary reasons for visiting the Prime Minister in September last. As I have indicated, I got an unequivocal indication that there was not a move towards integration and I accepted that in good faith, and I think my acceptance is still justified.
Does the Taoiseach not agree that this move of giving greater representation to Northern Ireland has been strenuously opposed by representatives of the Northern Ireland minority, that they clearly see it as a move towards integration, and that this act combined with the total lack of initiative or effort by the British Government towards implementing their policy on power sharing is undermining the position of Northern Ireland people, particularly the minority who in difficult and dangerous circumstances have tried to engage during the years in rational politics in that area?
This is being extended to a discussion.
It is an extremely important question.
However important it is we cannot get away from the fact that this is Question Time——
I should not like to be placed in the position of seeking an Adjournment debate on this. In order to avoid that——
The Deputy should not be threatening the Chair.
He will not threaten me, either, for that matter. I do not mind if he raises it on the Adjournment. However, I would point out that I was fully aware of the apprehension felt by the Northern minority because of the establishment of the Speaker's Conference and it was in order to assuage the fears that I knew existed that I sought the assurance which I got from Mr. Callaghan.
Does the Taoiseach not agree that he seems to have an extraordinary understanding of the internal political problems of the British Government and that he shows a marked lack of understanding of the problems of the Northern minority representatives?
Bearing in mind that the Labour, Conservative or Liberal Parties have not put forward candidates for the 12 imperial seats in Northern Ireland, would the Taoiseach not ask the British Prime Minister whether it is his intention or the intention of the other two parties in Westminster to contest any of the 17 seats? Would he further ask the British Prime Minister if there is another democracy in the world where a block of seats such as this in Northern Ireland is ignored by all political parties in Britain? Does it not seem very strange?
I cannot answer for the intentions of the British political parties.