asked the Minister for Economic Planning and Development if he will take steps to have the current national wage agreement renegotiated to take account of rises in the cost of living resulting from any adjustment in the green £.
6.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - National Wage Agreement .
5.
asked the Minister for Economic Planning and Development if the Government will take steps to have the terms of the National Pay Agreement amended to take account of the 3 per cent/4 per cent increase in food prices recently negotiated in Brussels.
: With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 and 6 together.
Deputies
: Sit down.
: The national agreement is a voluntary agreement entered into by the employers and trade unions——
: On what grounds is the Chair refusing my motion?
: ——and it is not the intention of the Government to seek a renegotiation or amendment for the reasons mentioned by the Deputy.
: May I ask on what grounds is the Chair refusing my motion?
: The Chair is not accepting the motion.
: On what grounds?
: There is no precedent for such a motion.
: Are you sure of that?
: I am certain.
(Cavan-Monaghan): An Adjournment Debate may or may not take place next week. It is not on the Order Paper.
: The Deputy is simply being disorderly. Will he resume his seat? Will he have some regard for the decorum of the House?
(Cavan-Monaghan): I am not disorderly. I am shocked——
Deputies
: You should be.
: Question No. 7.
: On a point of order——
7.
asked the Minister for Economic Planning and Development if it is the policy of the Government that the terms of the national wage agreement should apply to professional fees.
: The National Wage Agreement is a voluntary arrangement between employers and the ICTU——
: Could we settle this matter? There is a motion to suspend Standing Orders.
: On a point of order, is the Chair ruling?
: On a point of order I am the only Member called by the Chair.
: I want to make a point of order?
: Will the Deputy please resume his seat?
: I am on a point of order.
: I want to say my last word. There will be no further discussion on this. The only point made is that the debate is not on the Green Paper. If the debate is not on the Green Paper, then I will review my decision.
: Exclusively.
: Most Members who are discussing this matter have not even looked at the questions.
: How could we look at them? They are not down.
: There were 15 questions.
: I have here questions that you ruled out and I will quote what I have. It is signed by yourself to Deputy Barry Desmond and it says: "I regret I have had to disallow the Questions addressed by you to the Minister for Economic Planning and Development regarding the recently published Green Paper, Development for Full Employment. These matters are appropriate to be raised in the debate on the adjournment for the Summer Recess."
(Cavan-Monaghan): And so is everything else.
: These are statistical questions designed to elicit information.
: The same criteria applies to all questions. It is on the record of the House that the Green Paper is to be discussed on the Adjournment——
: Are you sure?
: If it is not, I will review my decision.
: I think you have gone a good distance——
: I am trying to pursue a point of order, Deputy Kelly. The point is that whether or not the Green Paper is to be included in the Adjournment Debate is immaterial.
: That is not a point of order.
: It is the position, and it always has been, that Deputies use Question Time in order to elicit vital information that may be used in the course of a debate. When the Chair rules Deputies may not ask questions because they are anticipating a debate that is a total disregard for both precedent and Standing Orders.
: The Deputy has made his statement now and he may pursue it in another place.
: I was elected to this place——
: Would the Minister answer Question No. 7?
: The national wage agreement is a voluntary arrangement between employers and the ICTU to provide for increases in rates of pay and the avoidance of industrial disputes. The agreement does not apply to professional fees. It is the Government's aim, however, to ensure as far as possible that the development of incomes other than pay, including professional fees, is in line with the national wage agreement increases.
: On a point of order——
: Order.
: The Leader of the Opposition has moved——
: The Deputy is deliberately seeking to disrupt the Business of the House.
: Is the Chair implying the Leader of the Opposition comes in deliberately to cause disorder? Will you adjourn the House, please?
: I am calling Question No. 8.
: Is my motion to adjourn the House not being taken? Will the Chair hear me on a point of order?
: I am the only Member properly on his feet.
: On a point of order it is provided under Standing Orders 139 (2) that in cases of urgent necessity, of which the Ceann Comhairle shall be the judge, any Standing Order or Orders may be suspended upon motion without notice. The Standing Order provides that the Chair shall be the judge of urgent necessity and it further provides that, if such motion be opposed, the Ceann Comhairle shall permit an explanatory statement from the Members who move it and a statement from a Member who opposes it before he puts the question thereon. It is clear from the wording that I am entitled to make an explanatory statement and, secondly, that you must put the question. May I, therefore, make my explanatory statement?
: I am not accepting it. It is not the Chair's job——
: Surely you cannot refuse to accept a procedural matter covered under Standing Orders.
: Would the Minister reply to Question No. 8?
8.
asked the Minister for Economic Planning and Development if he considers that recent increases in dividends awarded to the shareholders of the Allied Irish Banks and the Bank of Ireland, of 59 per cent and 42 per cent, respectively, are consistent with the spirit of the current national wage agreement, which granted workers a pay increase of 8 per cent; and whether they are in accordance with the Government's policy of encouraging moderation in income increases generally.
: The percentage figures quoted by the Deputy relate to total dividends paid to shareholders; on a gross earnings per share basis, the corresponding figures would be 16 per cent and 23 per cent. In relating them to the development of pay it needs to be remembered that, in addition to the 8 per cent pay increase quoted by the Deputy, the national wage agreement allows for a further 2 per cent after 12 months, and it also provides for locally negotiated increases to a maximum of 2 per cent, and for productivity bargaining. Overall it is expected that after allowance is made for these increases, and account is taken of wage-drift and the carry-over of 1977 pay increases into 1978, average non-agricultural earnings will show an increase of between 14 to 16 per cent in 1978 over 1977.
Furthermore, in comparing dividend payments and earnings, it is perhaps more appropriate to look at the pattern over a few years. The average annual increase in industrial earnings over the past five years was of the order of 21 per cent; during the comparable period the average dividend increases, on a gross earnings per share basis, were 17 per cent for Allied Irish Banks and 24 per cent for the Bank of Ireland.
It would not appear from the development of the two sets of figures that the Government's policy of encouraging moderation in income increases generally is inappropriate or inequitable.
: A Cheann Comhairle, the Standing Order I quoted says that, if such motion be opposed, the Ceann Comhairle shall permit an explanatory statement.
: In cases of urgent necessity, of which the Ceann Comhairle is the judge.
: If you are opposing my motion, may I now make my explanatory statement?
: I do not regard this as a matter of necessity, let alone urgent necessity. It is not in order and I do not accept the proposal.
: I understand you are opposing my contention——
: I am not opposing; the Chair does not oppose. I am not accepting it. I would appeal to the Deputy in the interests of better order of the House to allow Question Time to proceed.
: On a point of order, have you had a written communication from the Government side saying that the Green Paper would definitely be included in the Adjournment Debate?
: No.
: You are only guessing.
: In view of that, would you withdraw your ruling as you were ruling under a misapprehension?
: I said that if the Green Paper is not for discussion in the Adjournment Debate, I will——
(Interruptions.)
: What you said was that "if it was not the subject of the Adjournment Debate". Stick to what you said if you do not mind.
: If the Adjournment Debate is not on the Green Paper I will review my decision.
: Whether the Green Paper is to be the subject matter of the Adjournment Debate or to be included in it, is immaterial. Deputies are not only entitled but have a definite responsibility to solicit factual information in order to properly prepare themselves for an intelligent contribution to the debate.
: That is correct.
: You are now depriving Deputies of that right—not a privilege but a right.
: The Chair has the right to judge what questions are permissible——
: Impartially.
: The Chair never has any ulterior motive. This Ceann Comhairle is not concerned with who is embarrassed and who is not. I am going on precedent and on Standing Orders. This is not the time to press the Chair for an explanation.
: Do you not seriously realise the fundamental importance of the issue we are raising?
: Question No. 10.
: We cannot proceed until——
: We will debate this another time.
(Interruptions.)
: In the history of this House there never was a precedent for questions ruled out of order being discussed in such a disorderly manner.
: I was making a point of order——
: We have tried in every way possible to have this matter resolved in an orderly way.
: Are you prepared to review your decision and assure us that the questions will be on tomorrow's Order Paper and will be reached by the Minister?
: I am not, but I am prepared to look at the situation and discuss it with the Members, as I always do, outside Question Time.
: Any decision——
: I give every facility to people whose questions are ruled out of order and that is common practice. My predecessor did the same. It was never permitted that the matter would be raised at Question Time.
: A decision has been made now and if the Minister finishes his questions and Deputy Keating's questions are on tomorrow's Order Paper, they will not be answered in this House——
: Will the Deputy allow Question Time to Continue?
: Yes, if you are prepared to assure me——
: Have some respect for the Chair.
: Will the Minister be here tomorrow to answer questions?
: I will.
: Question No. 10.
(Interruptions.)
Question No. 9 postponed.