asked the Minister for Economic Planning and Development if paragraph 5.8 of the White Paper on National Development 1977-1980 on local authority housing is still considered accurate; and if the costings therein need revision to update them.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - White Paper on National Development .
4.
: I would refer the Deputy to paragraphs 5.21 and 5.22 of the Green Paper, Development for Full Employment, which set out the present position regarding the costs of local authority housing and the estimated costings in the period to 1980.
: The paragraph in the Green Paper is a precise repetition of the paragraph in the White Paper. I want to know the basis of the figures which the Minister now substantiates, particularly the figure of £26,000 for a local authority housing unit?
: On the basis of information supplied to my Depart-ment.
: Is the Minister aware, in regard to the figure of £26,000, which was first quoted in the White Paper six months ago, that the Dublin City Manager in information supplied to the city council three weeks ago indicated that the highest average cost of a unit of houses being built in inner Dublin city is £18,500? If he is so aware does he not agree that his figure of £26,000 is wildly inaccurate?
: I do not so agree. I am aware of the information which the Deputy refers to in the reply of the city manager which speaks of the cost of some recent projects at tender stage in which the figure quoted for some of them was £18,000. It is also the case that the information supplied to me for some other housing projects indicates an all-in cost of something approaching £26,500.
: Which ones?
: I do not propose to go into details of the costs.
: With respect, I suggest there are not any.
: I am going on the information supplied.
: Will the Minister tell us which ones? I have figures in front of me and I can support them.
: The Deputy has figures for some projects and I have been supplied facts and figures for some other projects.
: In view of the fact that this debate is a kind of a re-run of similar questions in February and in view of the fact that a number of local authorities express concern at the apparent intention expressed in the White Paper did his Department, in drafting the Green Paper, see fit to re-contact the Department of the Environment? If they did, is the information contained in the Green Paper the most up-to-date information received regarding housing costs from that Department?
: Yes it is, because at the time of the White Paper the average cost for local authority houses was given to us as £11,000. That was on the basis of 1977 information. For the Green Paper we were given an average cost of £12,500 for 1978 and for the maximum all-in cost, the one that was quoted as an illustration of what some houses could cost, it was £26,000 at the time of the White Paper and it is now £26,500.
: Would the Minister not agree, in view of the statistical information provided by the city manager, that the Department of the Environment, who fed him the information, appear to be biased against inner city housing redevelopment schemes?
: I do not interpret it as bias to state facts.
: Would the Minister not agree, in attempting to establish average costs, which was the object of the exercise, that to quote the maximum most expensive unit is not normally the statistical approach adopted?
: I am perfectly well aware of that. I have quoted average figures for the Deputy but I have also illustrated the maximum.
: Would the Minister not agree that in the White Paper and reiterated, virtually without even bothering to change the type setting, there is bias against inner city housing, which I am sure would not make, for example, Deputy Brady feel very comfortable in his constituency?
: No. I have to repeat again that statements of fact do not, to my mind, convey bias.
: Two figures have been bandied around, one of £18,000 and one of £26,500. Is that £26,500 an average figure or a selected figure, based on a selected sample?
: If the Deputy bothers to read either the White Paper or the Green Paper he will find that it makes it quite clear that it is a reference to the all-in cost of some housing.
: It is not an average figure.
: It was not suggested that it was.
(Interruptions.)
: I compromised to allow those questions on the Order Paper. We have spent 20 minutes on a few questions. If the Deputies want to get all of them answered less supplementaries will be necessary.
: The Minister has identified the £18,000 unit as a centre city housing unit but he refused to identify the one he quoted as £26,500. What is the logic of that? Why is the Minister so reluctant to identify where he gets the figure of £26,500 and in respect of what housing it is?
: I did not identify the projects which were covered by the city manager's reply either.
: Will the Minister say why he will not identify the £26,500 one?
: I do not want to get into discussions of detailed administration of policy or detailed discussions of matters which are more properly dealt with by other Ministers.
(Interruptions.)
: Other Ministers do not accept the Minister's housing figures.
: If the Deputy quotes the Minister who does not accept them I will have it looked at.
: They do not accept the perspective in which they are presented.
: The Deputy said he does not accept the figures. He should stand over what he said or withdraw it.
: Surely the Minister must appreciate that the Green Paper is in enough disrepute already without him adding to it by refusing to disclose——
: It is not.
(Interruptions.)
: When this dialogue is finished we will move on.
(Interruptions.)
: Order. We could get on much better without some of those interruptions.
: In view of the exchange that has taken place and the requests made earlier in the year to him could the Minister indicate if his Department have undertaken a comparative study of the provision of the all-in housing costs in inner city areas and suburban areas, including community facilities like schools and neighbourhood facilities? If that study has not been commenced by the Department of Economic Planning and Development is he prepared to give an undertaking to the House to conduct such a study so that this kind of comparatively meaningless exchange, with all due respect, can be given some real meaning?
: I agree that it is comparatively meaningless. I do not see how any study will resolve it.
: Why not let it take place?
: What is at issue here is not a question of carrying out a study but whether information supplied to us is correct or not.
: It is the Minister's credibility which is at issue here.
(Interruptions.)
: Order.
: I totally reject this. In order to demonstrate that I was aware of the position, I acknowledge that I was aware of the information which had been supplied to Deputy Keating on the cost of some projects. I also indicated that I was aware of the cost of other projects.
(Interruptions.)