Vol. 308 No. 2
asked the Minister for Finance the sum that was paid, if any, to (a) the Fianna Fáil Party; (b) the Fine Gael Party; and (c) the Labour Party for the provision of secretarial assistance, research, administrative and other functions in Leinster House in each of the years 1960, 1970 and the most recent date.
16.
asked the Minister for Finance if it is intended that independent registered political parties who return Deputies to Leinster House will be compelled to share secretarial service with the Independent Deputies.
17.
asked the Minister for Finance the maximum number of newly registered political parties who may return one or more Deputies in future elections, who will be compelled to share secretarial services with Independent Deputies.
I propose with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle to take Questions Nos. 15, 16 and 17 together. Arrangements were introduced in 1975 for the provision of secretarial assistance for Deputies who are not office-holders. Payments are made to political parties and Independent Deputies in respect of persons nominated by the Ceann Comhairle to provide such assistance. Payments under the scheme to the Fianna Fáil Party, the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party amounted to £19,789, £10,170 and £5,102, respectively, in 1977.
As well, sums by way of allowances for expenses, as set out in the tabular statement which, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to circulate with the Official Report, were paid to the Leaders of the three main parties in the financial years 1960-61, 1970-71 and 1977.
Under the scheme for the provision of clerical assistance referred to, one clerical assistant is provided in the case of the three main political parties for each certain number of Deputies or fraction of that number: the average number of Deputies per clerical assistant at present works out at 9.5 in the case of Fianna Fáil, 8.6 in the case of Fine Gael and nine in the case of Labour. The three Deputies not belonging to the main parties, that is, two Independent Deputies and one party represented by a single Deputy, have together been allocated one clerical assistant which represents in their case a more favourable ratio than in the case of the Deputies in the main parties.
I cannot say at this stage what revised arrangements might be necessary in the hypothetical event of further parties outside the main parties returning Deputies in the future.
Following is the statement:
Allowances paid to Leaders of the three main parties
|
1960/61 |
1970/71 |
1977 |
|
|
£ |
£ |
£ |
|
|
Fianna Fáil |
—* |
—* |
26,181 |
|
Fine Gael |
2,839 |
10,000 |
20,239 |
|
Labour |
1,430 |
5,000 |
8,673 |
* The Leader(s) of Government party/parties became eligible for payment of these allowances for the first time under the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) and Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices (Amendment) Act, 1973.
I am sorry to have to raise this in the House. I tried endlessly in other ways, but I had no alternative. I appreciate that it is a very difficult situation which boils down to the decision by the major parties as to whether they will extend a reasonable attitude in relation to the smaller party. The basic principle that appears to have been discussed and considered in relation to this question of secretarial assistance was the pool system which was discarded for obvious reasons. The Fine Gael people would not like to work with the Labour people and the Labour people would not like to work with Fianna Fáil and so on. That having been dismissed, is the Minister now attempting to impose a pool system on Deputy Blaney, Deputy Sheridan and myself? We are not allowed confidentiality, the right to see people in private, have telephone conversations in private and so on. In equity, would the Minister consider that there is a case either for accepting a general pool system for all of us or else making some kind of specific assistance available to this party with a view to what will happen to Sinn Féin, the Workers' Party, the Communist Party and subsequent parties?
I do not quite understand what the Deputy means by applying a pool system to everybody.
If one was working in a pool system it would mean that the Fine Gael Deputy, the Labour Deputy and the Fianna Fáil Deputy would probably dictate letters to the same person. It was decided that that obviously was not practical or wise and this system was rejected by all the parties. This system is now being imposed on Deputy Blaney and Deputy Sheridan and myself. They are being asked to work with us with whom they have no political affinity and we are being asked to work with them, obviously with different political views. That does not apply to either Labour, Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil, so why should it apply to us?
I agree that the pool system as outlined by the Deputy is not practical if it were extended across the board, but what alternative is available? It seems that the only alternative which could satisfy the Deputy's requirement is that one typist be allocated to him. Do I understand it correctly?
Or to everybody else in the House.
I would like that naturally but it would probably be unfair. It is conceivable that some figure could be worked out on the basis of that applied to the bigger parties which would help us to provide our own secretarial assistance. That is the least that could be asked for.
We are having a discussion on a matter which could be otherwise dealt with.
The basic issue raised by Deputy Browne in this question is of very great importance to Members of the Dáil in the efficient discharging of their duties. In a local authority a relatively minor official has better facilities for performing his duties than any Member of this House except those who are holding office. It is a farcical situation where there are six, eight or nine Deputies in one room.
The Deputy is aware that we cannot have discussion on this matter now. The Deputy will no doubt have other opportunities, but this is not the time.
I do not wish to come in conflict with the Chair on this but it is desirable that Deputies, particularly Leaders of parties, should add their comment that it is a very false economy in the national interests that Deputies should be forced to work in the circumstances in which we are forced to work.
Will the Minister agree that the ratio of over nine to one for the major parties is scandalous and that Deputies cannot perform their duties properly? Will the Minister also agree at least to consider this matter urgently with a view to reducing the ratio considerably?
Would the Minister agree that a better way of doing this job would be to make a personal allowance available to each Deputy in respect of secretarial help? That would meet the points raised by Deputy Browne, any other Deputy or any party member. Would the Minister also agree that that kind of assistance is required more in the locality in which the Deputy is elected to serve rather than in Dublin?
In response to Deputy Murphy's question and to Deputy Browne, the question of making a cash allowance to each Deputy as a contribution towards secretarial assistance presents a number of problems, but if the parties were agreed on that method in substitution for the present method I would certainly give serious consideration to it. I do not want to go into complicated details here but there are difficulties. If having considered the matter the parties preferred that system. I and the Government will certainly give serious consideration to changing the system. I would not be prepared to do so unless the parties having considered it separately were of the opinion that it should be done.
The Minister could create 148 new jobs.
On the question of providing one typist per Deputy, obviously every Deputy would wish to have this facility but there is a question not only of the substantial cost involved but of the possibility that some people might regard the service as an underhand method of increasing the remuneration of Deputies. In addition there is the practical problem of accommodation within easy reach and also the problem of the provision of telephones and so on. Therefore the matter is not a simple one. In general, while I do not suppose there is any Deputy who would argue that the facilities available for Members are adequate, the facilities have been improving steadily down through the years. Since I came into the House, for example. I have witnessed vast improvements. I am not saying that the services are adequate or perfect. There is room for improvement but we cannot expect realistically to achieve the optimum position in too short a time.
I thank the Minister for his willingness to consider any proposal that might come from the three parties for allowances for secretarial expenses for individual Deputies.
I must make it clear that this would be in lieu of the present situation.
I understand the Minister on that but within the existing system would the Minister be prepared to consider the anomaly that exists in respect of Independent Senators for whom there is no provision in respect of secretarial assistance? Would he consider also the further suggestion I have made in correspondence with the Taoiseach that the present formula, if expressed in different terms, that is, including Senators but with a somewhat different ratio, could produce exactly the same result from political parties but would provide also for secretarial help for Independent Senators?
We are embarking on the question of subject matter that could be raised more appropriately at the Committee on Procedures and Privileges or elsewhere.
This is a very important question.
That is beside the point. The Chair must rule at this stage. I have been very tolerant so far.
We are pressing for facilities for Deputies in the performance of their duties.
Deputies will appreciate that the whole format of Question Time would have to be changed if it were to be used as a forum for discussion on every matter of topical interest.
It is possible to guard against a secretarial allowance being used to increase the income of Deputies by ensuring that those Deputies who might not employ secretarial assistance would not get an allowance.
Perhaps Deputy O'Leary would not be aware of this but in such circumstances it could be expected that the wives of certain Deputies would be in receipt of the allowance.
They are acting as unpaid secretaries now.
Members of the House are often criticised for the vast amount of constituency work in which they engage but such work must be done and if Deputies are to concentrate also on legislative activities, secretarial assistance of one secretary per Deputy is required.
May I ask——
This will have to be the last supplementary. I trust the Deputy has a question.
——whether the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will consider this matter? I agree with the Ceann Comhairle that it should not have been necessary to raise this matter here. We are totally at the mercy of the goodwill and sense of justice of the big parties but can we have an assurance that the matter will be raised with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?
It is with them at the moment.
The Minister has indicated that he is prepared to consider the matter so perhaps we should leave it at that.
Will the Minister say whether he has considered the question at all? He has been asked often enough to do so by the three of us who are involved. We do not have recourse to the Committee on Procedures and Privileges as we are not represented on that body. I have been asking to be received by them but my request has not been met. I want the Minister to remove entirely from the public mind that which he has intimated here today, that is, that Deputies Browne, Sheridan and I do better than anybody else out of this situation in that we have one secretarial assistant for three of us as against a ratio of 1 to 9 and 1 to 8.4 for other Members. That is ignoring entirely cash supplements that are paid in various ways to the three parties. With that consideration in mind, it will be seen that on average we get less per head than that represented in cash and kind by each of the other parties. This Chamber is the only place in which we can voice any view on this since we will not be heard anywhere else so let me remind the House also that we are the only people working in basement conditions with fur growing on the walls, in an area that is not lighted properly and which becomes too hot when the heat is on and too cold when the heat is off. The three of us are stuffed in there in these conditions. Such a situation would not be tolerated in any other capacity in the country. I am totally fed up with it. For more than a year I have been urging the Minister to improve the situation but without success and now he tells us that we are doing better than other Members. Let it be remembered that we represent 250,000 people or 12 seats in the three constituencies concerned but we are not even getting a fair share in relation to facilities. I worked here for years when there was no assistance, when there was no postal allowance and when we were not allowed trunk call expenses but I am not cribbing about the progress that has been made in the meantime.
That is enough. The Deputy is making a long speech.
As Head of this House you have not listened to our case but I intend being heard here. If I am not heard it will be too bad regarding the inconvenience of the business of the House.
I shall stand by Deputy Blaney in any action he may take.
It is a shameful situation.
I would simply make two brief comments on what has been said. First, Deputy Blaney is entitled to express his view but the interpretation of the position is his. Other interpretations are possible and these have been taken by other people.
Why did the Minister fail to meet us when we requested a meeting with him?
It is impertinent of a Minister to refuse to meet Deputies.
It was not convenient for me to meet the Deputies at that time.
I understood that.
But I asked that the case he made be submitted. It was submitted and was on the lines outlined now by Deputies Browne and Blaney. However, we are no further advanced because there is no easy solution to the problem. It may appear easy of solution to the Deputies because they are considering it from their point of view but that is not so.
Perhaps they will go on strike.
The other point I wish to make is that recently I sanctioned a reduction in the ratio of secretarial assistants so that shortly it will be 1 to 7.
That is not of any value to us.
I am aware of that.
