It is proposed to take Business in the following order: Nos. 1, 6 (Resumed), 7 (Resumed) and 8. Private Members' Business will be from 7 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. when No.19 will be taken.
Order of Business.
I should like to ask the Taoiseach when he proposes to give time for Motion No. 58 on the Order Paper to be debated. That motion proposes an amendment in Standing Orders to get over the difficulty arising from the implementation of the recommendations of a Committee in a form which did not give effect to the intentions of that Committee.
When the matter was raised, subsequent to the Deputy's reference to it here a couple of weeks ago, at the Committee on Procedure and Privilege, the suggestion contained in the Deputy's motion was voted out overwhelmingly. That ought to be the situation.
The procedure in the House is that Standing Orders are not changed by a Committee of the House; they are changed by the House. As a matter of convenience they may be brought before the Committee first so that they may be discussed and debated there in what is at times, perhaps, a less acromonious atmosphere. That procedure having been gone through by us in good faith and with every expectation that it would yield a concrete result in line with the unanimous recommendations of the Committee in question and having been voted down there, I have now put a motion on the Order Paper. In accordance with precedent I should like to know when time will be given to debate that, because I understand that is the correct procedure for changing Standing Orders. It must be done in the House by way of a motion.
The fact that the Deputy puts down a motion, even though he is Leader of the Opposition, does not automatically entitle him to get Government time to debate it. The subject matter of the motion was debated at length by the informal Committee of the last Dáil. The proposals which that Committee came up with did not provide for what the Deputy's motion purports to achieve. I do not think it is all that urgent in that respect because, since the Bill which was not permitted a Second Reading was introduced and defeated on a motion in the House, four or five Private Members' Bills were given a Second Reading during Private Members' Business.
I appreciate there have been some but I do not think there were that number. I am trying to get away from the cat and mouse position where the Government can use their big majority, to which they make frequent reference by way of interruption on any occasion they wish, to shoot down and prevent discussion of a Bill and then allowing other business to be discussed. The result is that they are controlling the Opposition's power to use their own Private Members' Business time for their own legislation. That is completely contrary to the recommendations of the Committee of Inquiry, who were unanimous. The matter was referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privilege and was blocked. In accordance with Standing Orders I put down a motion on the Order Paper and I should like to know what time will be given for that motion.
I will give the matter further consideration.
I wish to thank the Taoiseach.
I should like to ask the Taoiseach about the date of publication of the White Paper. In the document published with the Green Paper it was stated that in the autumn the Government would publish a comprehensive White Paper. The autumn is passing rapidly and I am anxious to know if the White Paper will be published in sufficient time to allow for a separate and specific debate to take place on it, so that we will not get into the situation we have been in in the past of debating a document of this kind as part of a general debate on Government policy. Can I get an assurance that it will be published in time to have a separate debate on it before we reach the Christmas Adjournment Debate?
I have not thought about a separate debate yet. As the Deputy is aware, we are likely to have a number of economic debates between now and the Christmas Recess. I can say to the Deputy that the White Paper will be published not earlier than two weeks but certainly, I hope, in time for a debate before the Dail adjourns for the Christmas Recess.
A separate debate?
I have not thought about that, but that is a matter which will be arranged between the Whips in time.
Last week the Taoiseach promised to consider giving the House time to debate the present industrial relations situation and I should like to know if he has now decided if we can have such a debate next week?
I certainly have not.
Is it the Taoiseach's intention to give the House an opportunity next week or very soon?
We have a lot of business to do and, while I am aware that industrial relations is an important matter, I do not think a debate in the House would be conducive to improving them in the meantime.
Is the Taoiseach afraid to discuss industrial relations in the House or does he accept the responsibility for the rejection of the national pay talks today?
We cannot have a debate on this matter today.
The Taoiseach has been going round the country making speeches about industrial relations where nobody can answer him back. We should be given an opportunity of debating this matter and putting the blame where it belongs.
The Deputy is very good at an ex-party ticket himself and he does not even discuss matters with his party colleagues, apparently.
Matters of this kind should be discussed in the Dáil rather than by means of ministerial speeches when there is so much at stake from the nation's point of view.
We cannot have argument now about such matters.
Surely the Deputy does not deny me the right to talk about any subject I like so long as it is ad rem to the business of this nation?
Does the Taoiseach think it is helpful to speak about these matters?
I enjoy reading the Taoiseach's speeches enormously but the fact that the Taoiseach makes a speech elsewhere should not be taken as a reason for not debating serious issues in this House. That is the point I wanted to make.
I did not say that.
The matter is now closed.
(Interruptions.)
(Cavan-Monaghan): Did the Taoiseach say something about having a debate next week.
Did I understand the Taoiseach to have said that a debate on industrial relations could be taken up again next week?
No. Deputy Mitchell asked me if I would have a debate on it next week and I said "No".
Is the Taoiseach afraid to have such a debate?
Not at all.
Industrial relations at present are in a chaotic situation and a debate on the issue would be helpful. What has the Taoiseach to be afraid of?
I am not convinced that that is the situation at all.
We have the Taoiseach's own word for it. He made a statement to that effect the other day.
Why is the Taoiseach afraid? We are entitled to discuss industrial relations.
The Deputy should resume his seat.
Deputies opposite ought to realise that they are not in Government and that the Government have rights.
We are in Parliament and we are entitled to discuss such matters.
(Interruptions.)