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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 14 Nov 1978

Vol. 309 No. 5

Private Members' Business. - Food Subsidies: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the stated policy of the Government to phase out food subsidies, regards the effects of such a policy on the cost of living generally and in particular on the living standards of the poor, the underprivileged and large families as most retrogressive, and calls on the Government to review its policy intentions on this grave issue of national concern.

The Labour Party tabled this motion as a matter related to other activities in which we are engaged, including a national campaign to solicit signatures right across the political spectrum urging the Government not to carry out their stated intention of removing food subsidies because of the repercussions and social consequences for so many of our people in the event of that taking place. The Government have seen fit to table an amendment to our motion asking for an examination and a comparison of the management of the economy from 1973 to June 1977 and from June 1977 to the present day. I welcome the amendment because it gives much greater scope to deal with all the issues involved, and our motion and that amendment are by no means unrelated.

The implications of the proposal by the Government in the Green Paper to remove food subsidies are only now percolating through to the general public and to members of the Fianna Fail Party at rank and file, grassroots level; obviously, from reports we have had of a parliamentary party meeting of Fianna Fáil held this week, they are now beginning to register on members of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party. That, coupled with the proposal to tax children's allowances, has stirred the parliamentary party of Fianna Fail in two ways. Undoubtedly a number of people in the Fianna Fáil benches and tens of thousands of people throughout the country who voted Fianna Fáil in the last election have some sense of social justice, and they never for one moment, when they were casting their vote for Fianna Fáil, envisaged that such a proposal as the removal of food subsidies could seriously be made by that Government in a society such as ours is today. Despite the misleading statement by the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance in this House some weeks ago that the proposal to remove food subsidies was contained in the Fianna Fáil manifesto, having gone through the manifesto I cannot find even a suggestion that such action was being contemplated by Fianna Fáil when they sought the support of the electorate in June 1977. I am totally convinced that had such a proposal been made public by them at that time they would not have been returned to office.

It has been suggested by the Government that the removal of food subsidies is totally justified. No time limit has been put by the Government on the proposals to remove these subsidies. They say rather vaguely in the Green Paper that it should be done over a period of time. But done it will be, and the timing of the removal of food subsidies will be determined far more by party political advantage than by any other considerations. Because next year we are facing both direct elections to the European Parliament and local elections throughout the country it is quite conceivable that the timing for the removal of food subsidies, the taxation of children's allowances or any of the other anti-social measures that the Government have mentioned in the Green Paper will be determined by the fact that we are entering into a dual election year. The intention is there, the thought is there and the implementation will be there and it is purely a question of when.

I would like the Irish electorate to realise that no Government would put down in black and white as their stated intention a measure so conservative, reactionary and controversial as the removal of food subsidies or the taxation of children's allowances unless they intended to implement that policy. If the start of its implementation does not take place next January in the budget it will be because we are then in a dual election year and the decision to postpone its implementation will be for purely party political interests. We should look at the situation and the kind of society in which we live and in which a Government is proposing to remove food subsidies. The result of the removal of food subsidies on three items that have been mentioned will be as follows: for one lb. of butter the price would be £1.5; for a pint of milk 16p; for a loaf of bread 31p. These three items are fairly basic food requirements of the average Irish family and the total saving in the removal will be in the region of £57 million.

That would not happen all at once; it would be, as the Government say in their Green Paper, during a period of time. The reason that the Government have given for the proposed removal of food subsidies is that they were introduced at a time of high inflation. Those circumstances, according to them, no longer exist and they are now justified in proposing that the subsidies be removed. I do not accept their argument in so far as inflation in relation to food prices is concerned. If we look at the last price index figures we will see that from April to mid-August 1978 the increase in the price of food was 7 per cent, and over a yearly basis it is quite clear that the increase in food prices goes well into double figures.

There are also other factors such as the Green £. The operation of CAP in the EEC has a very definite beneficial national effect in that quite substantial sums of money come into this country through the operation of CAP. One of the side effects of that policy is that, while it is beneficial to some of the farming community—not all if we take the west of Ireland—it has a detrimental effect on urban and industrial workers in that it increases the prices of certain commodities.

That is not the fault of the CAP. It is not the fault of the EEC. At national and European level we have always supported the operation of the common agricultural policy. We have also said repeatedly that the Government have the responsibility to ensure that, when the money arrives here from the EEC, there is a proper redistribution of that beneficial effect of our membership of the EEC. Not only have the Government neglected to attempt any redistribution of the existing wealth within the country, but also, by deliberate action, they have increased the difference between the very wealthy, the very poor and the middle income group. By removing the food subsidies they will increase the burden on the urban dweller and cause further friction and division between rural and urban Ireland. That is very undesirable in itself. It is an inevitable result of the Government's past actions and it will be aggravated by their proposal to remove the food subsidies.

Let us have a look at some of the people who will be affected by the removal of the food subsidies on bread, butter and milk. Almost immediately after taking office the Government removed the wealth tax, they increased the benefits available under capital gains tax, and they ensured that those who already had an abundance were handed back £2,000 per year, those in the wealth tax category. The removal of the food subsidies will hit them because they will have to pay more for bread, butter and milk. It will hit Members of the Oireachtas because we will have to do the same. It will hit other categories and I will name just a few of them: the unemployed, the old age pensioner, the deserted wife, the unmarried mother and her child, widows and orphans, and a whole range of people. It will hit them differently from the way it will hit us or the people to whom Fianna Fáil saw fit to give back £2,000 per year.

Sometimes we become so confused and so involved with the masses that we do not see the individual. Can anybody in this House, in the Press Gallery or in the country who is fortunate enough to be able to provide a good home, proper clothing, proper meals for their children, envisage a situation where a child comes in from school—and there may be four, five, six, seven or eight children in the family—and asks for a glass of milk or a slice of bread and butter and the parent of necessity has to say no? That is the implication behind this proposal to remove the food subsidies.

A committee financed by the EEC was set up to investigate the extent and the cause of poverty within the EEC. The Irish Committee to Combat Poverty made an interim report yesterday. They estimated—accurately, I believe—that approximately 25 per cent of our people are living in poverty. I am talking of approximately 750,000 Irish men, women and children living in poverty in 1978 in a European society. Of those 750,000 people approximately one-third are children. That is why we have tabled this motion and that is why we will use every means at our disposal to solicit the support not only of people who normally support the Labour Party but right across the political spectrum in telling this Government to halt. Their Tory approach to Irish society has gone on long enough. I believe that once the cry of halt is clearly spelled out we will be joined by active members of the Fianna Fáil Party at parliamentary and constituency level.

The Government put down an amendment to this motion. I welcome that amendment because it gives us an opportunity to compare what happened to our economy before and after June 1977. Before the election there was the Fianna Fáil manifesto and afterwards they published another document entitled Development for Full Employment. The latter is something of a joke when one considers the number who are still out of work approximately 16 months after Fianna Fáil's return to office. However, they put forward the two documents I have mentioned as objects for economic beatification. But they must be subjected to very close scrutiny and I intend engaging in such scrutiny this evening.

If we consider the situation in terms of economic growth we find that the rate in this respect in 1976 was from 3 to 3½ per cent. That was at the end of a three-year period of the worst recession that the western world had known since the thirties. Indeed, it was perhaps an even worse recession than that experienced in the thirties. In 1972 the western world was shaken to its foundation by the very unexpected and high increase in the price of oil when economies that were much stronger than ours were rocked to their foundations. It is acknowledged that we were coming out of that recession in 1976. Impartial economists acknowledged that, despite the severity of the recession, Ireland came through it relatively well.

Economic growth, so far as this party are concerned, is not an end in itself. Rather, it is a means to an end, because unless economic growth and development are paralleled by social growth and development, it is meaningless. Economic growth must be translated into something more than a percentage figure which, in terms of what this means to the ordinary working people, does not excite us very much. It has always been and will remain the policy of this party that economic growth is merely a means to an end. It is not a question of waiting until those who have will, of their own volition, say they have enough. In our society we might have to wait a long time for someone to say he had enough. The fruits of economic growth and development should be spread and distributed among the people.

When we consider the record of Fianna Fáil and their commitments we find that they forecast a 7 per cent economic growth in 1977. However, it transpired that the rate was 5 per cent and the latest Central Bank figures indicate a figure of 6 per cent for 1978. It is predicted confidently by impartial economists that the growth rate for 1979 will be 3½ per cent. Is that progress? Is it an example of the dynamic economic policy we were told we could look forward to?

The people opposite are always hoping that next year will be disastrous.

It is not my intention to dwell too much on the future but instead to recall the past and to have regard to the present.

To revert again to the manifesto, let us take the question of employment in respect of which there was a commitment by Fianna Fáil to reduce the number on the live register by the end of this year by between 20,000 and 25,000.

Would the Deputy please quote the reference for that statement? I am totally fed up listening to that sort of thing.

The Minister will have an opportunity later of dealing with the points raised.

We know that since the Minister came to office he has had little time for anything else but to correct each week what he said during the previous week.

Is the Deputy prepared to quote the reference for the statement he has made regarding a promise to reduce by 25,000 the number on the live register? I challenge him or any speaker to follow to produce evidence of that statement.

In June 1977 the number on the live register was 111,000. Today the figure is approximately 96,000. However, in addition, 14,000 people have emigrated during the past 12 months, so that both figures when totalled amount to 110,000 in real terms. This is the achievement of a Government that confidently promised the people a reduction in the live register of 25,000. At a time of recovery and when all the indications were favourable compared with the time that party like to talk about—1973 to 1976—their achievement is 1,000 new jobs, with 96,000 people unemployed and 14,000 others having had to emigrate. In addition the youth employment commitment which was spelled out in such glowing terms in the manifesto has, according to a statement made last week by the Minister for Economic Planning and Development to a Fianna Fáil meeting when he thought the Press were not represented, failed utterly.

I am denying that also—three times.

Three times?

There is a biblical precedent for it.

Brian Boru.

There is no pleasure for us in acknowledging the Government's failure in these areas because the implications for the tens of thousands of unemployed, young people included, are much too serious for anyone with a sense of responsibility to gloat over. However, they are facts that must be referred to.

Mention of a sense of responsibility reminds me to recall that up to 1977 we were extremely fortunate in the approach that all political parties had towards most, if not all, national issues. At all times, despite the desire of all of us to put forward a programme in the most attractive way, we were inhibited and limited by our sense of national responsibility. Regrettably, that sense of national responsibility went totally out the window with the publication of the manifesto which, to say the least, was one of the most unpatriotic decisions, a decision that was premeditated and deliberate, ever to be taken by a group of experienced politicians since the foundation of the State.

The people who put forward that document to the Irish electorate were not inexperienced people. They were not people who did not have any idea of what economic circumstances were like, how the machinery of Government worked, or what the international economic circumstances were; they were people who had held the highest position in the land for long periods of time, including the present Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and most of the Cabinet. They knew precisely what they were doing. It was a deliberately unpremeditated act——

The Deputy means premeditated.

That is right. I also mean unpatriotic. I had better repeat that in case the Minister missed it.

Can the Deputy tell me why?

I can. In fairness I should say that the Minister possibly may have believed that textbook stuff, but they did not.

I do not think he believes it now, because he has come down from his ivory tower to the harsh realities, but they knew precisely what they were doing.

A number of other issues were raised in this document. As time is running out I will very quickly go through it and find out what their effects were. The issues I will mention were mainly instrumental in returning 84 Deputies to those benches. It was the most cynical operation by any political party in this State.

We had the £1,000 grant for first time house purchasers. This was hailed as a marvellous move. On page 26 of this document—one feels a little nauseated going through it—in relation to housing it said:

Because Fianna Fáil believes that as many families as possible should own their own homes,——

Listen to this because this is choice

—— it will be made easier to buy a house and cheaper to keep it.

That is in the manifesto but let us look at the reality. Since Fianna Fáil came into office in June 1977 the price of houses in the private sector has risen by 30 per cent and the price of labour and material in the same period has risen by 7 per cent. Where has the 23 per cent gone? What accounts for that 23 per cent? A lot of it is accounted for because of speculation in building land but a great deal is because Fianna Fáil had certain obligations to people engaged in the building industry, which had been most handsomely met at the expense of those people they had appealed to—"Because Fianna Fáil believes that as many families as possible should own their own homes, it will be made easier to buy a house and easier to keep it". I wonder what comfort that is to some unfortunate couple, either newly married or contemplating marriage, who read that and voted for Fianna Fáil on the basis of that statement.

Let us look at the removal of the rates. People were told that if Fianna Fáil came into office there would not be any rates. They neglected to tell the people that as well as abolishing rates they were abolishing some services and curtailing others. If you ask any Member of this House who is also a member of a county council, he will tell you that the financial circumstances of county councils from one end of the country to another, are such that they are hard put to maintain their basic services and that there have been drastic cutbacks in the provision of local authority housing. In one county council—Kildare County Council—it has been stated publicly by the manager that there is no way he can meet the legitimate demands of the local representatives to provide adequate services for the people in County Kildare. That statement can be repeated in each local authority area from one end of the country to the other.

The abolition of the car tax was a marvellous Santa Claus gift. It took in a large number of people but it did not apply to many others because they did not have cars. They did not get any relief from car tax; they got an increase in CIE fares that was sanctioned rapidly by the Government and, if I recall correctly, even exceeded the increase sought by CIE, to save the Exchequer money. After the removal of car tax the insurance companies asked for an increase in insurance of up to 35 per cent and that also was granted by the Government.

One should examine what has happened to some of the commitments that have been given in this document, the present state of our economy and, more frightening, what the prospects of our economy are. I thank the Minister and the Government for the opportunity of discussing their amendment.

Politics, if anything, is about trying to create a certain kind of society in the country in which you live and to which you have a commitment. The kind of society Fianna Fáil policy, statements and actions are pushing this country towards will be disastrous for the country in the short term. I honestly believe that in the long term the type of society they are trying to push on the people will eventually be rejected by them. I believe that the sense of outrage felt by our young people against the injustices and inequities in society will backlash against the Tory attitude and policies which are being pursued by the Government.

I mentioned at the beginning that in this Christian society it was stated yesterday by an authoritative Government and EEC-sponsored committee that there were 750,000 people, out of a total population of approximately three million, living in poverty. One of the founder leaders of the Labour Party, Jim Larkin, in 1913 said that: "Christ will be crucified no more in this city." Unfortunately, Larkin was wrong because in this city Christ is being crucified in the person of each and every one of those 750,000 and the responsibility for that lies very heavily on those benches.

I move the following amendment:

To delete all words after Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following: "deplores the mismanagement of the economy in the period 1973-1977 which resulted in the need for food subsidies and approves the dynamic programme being implemented by the Government since 1977 to rectify this situation."

If we are to have a discussion about food subsidies, their merits and demerits and about whether and in what circumstances existing food subsidies ought to be removed, it is right that we should also ask why these subsidies were necessary in the first place and what the circumstances are in which their retention is justified. We have to remind ourselves of the reasons why food subsidies were introduced and hence the reference to the mismanagement of the economy during the period between 1973 and 1977. Deputy Cluskey gave a selected version of some of the events during that period and I will come back to that point later. We can agree that there was indeed an oil crisis and a massive increase in oil prices and that there was an international recession which had an effect on the Irish economy. It is around that point that we part company. Deputy Cluskey compliments himself and the Coalition on the fact that Ireland came through that recession in relatively good shape. We deplore their bungling and incompetent handling of our affairs during that period. It was well documented at the time and subsequently and we do not have to repeat it in detail. In so far as it is relevant to the motion before the House, I have to deal with one or two aspects of it.

In the early days of the response to this recession in 1974 and into 1975, the prevailing doctrine from the Coalition benches was that we were being buffeted on stormy international waters, that we had to grapple with a difficult situation and that we had to choose between inflation and unemployment. The doctrine was that the kind of action needed to hold up employment and prevent dole queues from getting longer was, alas, action which would result in higher rates of inflation, but that we should be willing to pay that price in order to protect employment.

From its first exposition Fianna Fáil consistently attacked that doctrine, held it be wrong, dangerous, misleading and the source of great damage to the economy—as it proved to be. It took quite a long time for the Coalition to accept the error of their ways and the misguided nature of that policy. Being politicians, of course they were not going to accept Fianna Fáil's word for it, despite the number of occasions on which this policy was attacked and the argument made that any successful onslaught on unemployment, any successful programme to maintain and protect jobs and living standards would also have to be an attack on inflation, that success in one area required success in the other. This twin approach was not a doctrine which they were prepared to accept coming from the Fianna Fáil benches.

However, fortunately for the community we have an impartial and independent source of advice and the National Economic and Social Council, in their report on inflation published in the summer of 1975, put forward what I may for convenience describe as the Fianna Fail viewpoint. They argued that the then prevailing trends of rising inflation and so forth could not be sustained and that there had to be some drastic, dramatic action to bring a halt to the upward spiral of prices which was triggering further increases in costs and pay rates in an unending vicious circle and which was not only resulting in higher prices but also driving thousands of workers out of their jobs.

The greatest single catastrophe in the employment area occurred in 1975. That was when we had the massive shake out of employment. If Deputy Cluskey wants to talk about poverty in this city and the causes of it, I can point to the actions of him and his colleagues, because it was their bungling, misguided management during those critical days which resulted in many thousands of workers losing their jobs, especially in the labour intensive industries in Dublin which were most vulnerable. Happily, even the Coalition could see how foolish and wrong their approach was, and they were probably grateful to have an independent source of advice which they could graciously accept. When the NESC put forward proposals for a supplementary budget in the summer of 1975, they were accepted and introduced.

A predominant part of that package was a package to introduce food subsidies. Fianna Fáil had already been campaigning for that. I can quote speeches in the autumn of 1974 in the early days of the oil crisis and its aftermath. I can point to speeches and statements made then by the present Taoiseach and Tánaiste advocating the introduction of those subsidies. They were welcomed by Fianna Fáil at that time. There was grateful recognition that at last the Coalition were prepared to repent the error of their ways and mend their folly.

One of the points raised about the introduction of subsidies at that time was the argument that it is all very well to introduce them but if they are brought in it will not be possible to take them away. If we were dealing with a Coalition that might well be the case; I do not know. If there is a case for introducing subsidies at a time of rapidly spiralling inflation, when living standards are falling and unemployment is rising, then presumably there is a case for gradually removing those subsidies when the dark days are over, when some sort of normal conditions are restored, when living standards are again rising, when employment is rising and inflation is moderating. These are the sorts of features which, happily, are once again present in the economy because of the policies we have been pursuing in Government. Therefore, if we are enjoying and will continue to enjoy these rising living standards and improvements in inflation and employment it is reasonable to think in terms of the gradual phasing out and reduction of subsidies.

When will it start?

I must confess I was puzzled by Deputy Cluskey's tortuous argument at this juncture. He referred to a stated intention to remove food subsidies, saying that for party political advantage it was quite conceivable that the Government would not start removing them because of the elections next summer. I am not quite sure what precise characteristics Deputy Cluskey wants to attribute to the Fianna Fáil Government.

The Rules of the House would not permit me to tell the Minister.

Whatever else, we would have to be incredibly incompetent as a political party to be guilty of the kind of behaviour which he apparently wishes to attribute to us. He is trying to say, on the one hand, that we would threaten to remove food subsidies and, on the other hand, that we would not do it because it would not be politically popular.

The Minister stated that it will be done.

If we were to be guilty of the type of motivation which was implied but not openly stated, then clearly we would not have uttered a word on the subject of food subsidies.

When is it intended to begin removing them?

I have no intention of discussing possible budgetary policy this year, next year or any other year. The Deputy knows there is a well-established tradition for that. If we were guilty of the kind of base political behaviour which the Deputy wishes to impute, we would not have uttered a word on the subject of food subsidies. If we wanted for party political reasons to present the best image next summer, then presumably we would have kept quiet on the subject of subsidies and spoken to the electorate in whatever terms Deputy Cluskey might think appropriate. That is not the nature of Fianna Fáil's approach to economic management and it helps to illustrate the difference between that side of the House and this because again Deputy Cluskey was demonstrating that the Coalition have learned nothing from their failures and their defeats. What he is now saying is that back in office they would perpetrate the same sort of confused approach—double dealing, hypocrisy, pious talk—and no effort at any kind of worth-while or valuable action.

Talking about policy then in this area it is quite sensible, proper and valid to say that here is an area in which a particular action was taken in particular circumstances, in the appalling temporary circumstances of the economy in 1974 and 1975. The first question to be asked is: Do you envisage subsidies as a permanent feature of the economy? I would like to hear some of the later Labour Party speakers on this point since Deputy Cluskey did not utter one word about that aspect. Is the argument that subsidies should be a permanent feature of the economy or what would the attitude be at some future date? My hope is that at some future date the people will not suffer the fate of another Coalition Government because they might find themselves in circumstances in which subsidies would again have to be introduced to protect them temporarily until such time as good government and good order would be restored once more.

This motion demonstrates, if demonstration is needed, how good our planning is and how farseeing we are because, if subsidies are introduced in bad times, then when the good times begin to show the question arises as to whether subsidies should be a permanent feature of the economy and, if not, is it then appropriate to start on their reduction and gradual removal? There is no stated intention anywhere that I can find to remove food subsidies. In fairness to Deputy Cluskey, he said that if we were to take action in this area we were not apparently talking of abolishing subsidies in one full swoop. Indeed, that was the only point on which he managed to quote us accurately. All the Green Paper said was that it was reviewing trends in spending. Why? If we are to make an impact on unemployment in the years ahead we will have to find money to finance more jobs. Clearly we will have to be selective in the way in which we spend money in other areas and, therefore, there must be a review of spending to ensure spending achieves worth-while results. All the Green Paper says, having listed the areas in which some changes may be desirable, is that a further important area for review is that of food subsidies.

While subsidies are useful in moderating inflationary pressures it is not envisaged that they will become a permanent feature.

Naturally then, if one is seeking to manage economic affairs responsibly and prudently, a decision to vary expenditure on subsidies would need to be related to the particular circumstances and geared to the other developments taking place.

Deputy Cluskey waxed eloquent about the hardship and injustice the removal of the subsidies would cause. He asked a rhetorical question: Who are the people who would suffer? He listed them: primarily the recipients of social welfare benefits, not those who got "x" thousand pounds through the abolition of the wealth tax.

Too true.

That is very interesting because if Deputy Cluskey is genuinely interested in giving more to the poor and less to the rich, he should of course support the removal of the subsidies because the effect of the subsidy on butter, for example, means the millionaire's pound of butter is subsidised in exactly the same way as the poor person's pound of butter is. Deputy Cluskey described very harrowingly the plight of the hungry child in the poor family who wants a cup of milk but cannot have it. But the child in the affluent home can have two, three or four cups of milk and so it is the wealthier home which benefits from the greater amount of subsidy and not the poor home.

That is not a valid reason for removing subsidies. That is a reason for an adjustment in the taxation code.

We are not debating every aspect of possible taxation policy and every possible Government spending policy.

We are trying to ensure that the Government do not increase the burdens the poor have to carry.

Deputy Cluskey, the Minister is in possession.

I have less time than the Deputy had and I want to deal with the points raised and pin the Deputy down. If the Deputy were really concerned about the poor he would be supporting the phased removal of the subsidies because that would have the effect of reducing some element of Government spending which, on balance, would produce more benefits for the poorer groups, on the Deputy's own example.

We do not yield an inch to the Deputy in his professed concern for the weaker sections of the community. More than that, we do not spend time weeping crocodile tears over their state. We have an excellent record in regard to alleviating the burdens of the poor. If the Deputy wants to make comparisons in regard to the real value of social welfare benefits during his Government's period in office and ours, the record does us proud. We did twice as well. We delivered the goods. We can debate that another time.

The Deputy should be supporting the phased removal of subsidies. By doing anything else he could well end up penalising social welfare recipients. Specifically included in the White Paper is a statement guaranteeing there will be no adverse effect on living standards. Paragraph 2.12 at page 18 talks about a change in priorities. It states that, despite a growing population, social services will at least be maintained for those who genuinely need them and income maintenance payments will be raised in line with the cost of living. That is an unconditional guarantee that any reduction in subsidies which might affect the living standards of the poor will automatically be compensated for. In other words, we are saying that if there were to be any change in subsidies that change would not be implemented in a way which might adversely affect the poor and it could, therefore, logically only affect the better off.

May I ask one question? Is the Minister seriously suggesting that the removal of food subsidies would only affect social welfare recipients?

I did not say that.

That is what the Minister suggested.

The Minister has only ten minutes.

Would the Minister give a definition——

Will Deputy Cluskey allow the Minister to conclude?

The Deputy's example of the poor was people living on social welfare benefits. My point is that we have already guaranteed unconditionally to protect them and, on balance therefore, the withdrawal of any subsidy will affect the better off and not the weaker sections of the community.

What group does the Minister define as middle income?

I did not use that phrase.

The Minister did at his Fianna Fáil meeting.

The Minister did.

How dare you? How dare you? How dare you?

I dare because I am a Member of this House and I was elected to protect the people.

You were not at that meeting.

Minister, please. Deputy Cluskey had his 40 minutes and was not interrupted, so he should not interrupt the Minister. We cannot continue in this way. The Minister has ten minutes to conclude.

May I have two extra minutes? I make the point that Deputy Cluskey was not at that meeting.

(Interruptions.)

I have subsequently made a number of statements correcting the record. I am happy to say that other people who were present at that meeting were able to endorse my statement.

Including the reporter?

I had no contact with the reporter. I do not know who he is. I am still repeating what I have said on at least three occasions.

The reporter signed his article.

I am not responsible for newspaper reports. I was incorrectly reported, and other people who were at that meeting with me have also said that I was incorrectly reported. That is why I say, how dare the Deputy, because he was not at that meeting. If the Deputy wishes to challenge the accuracy of any statement I make I will be delighted to tease it out with him in any manner he feels appropriate inside or outside the House.

Would the Minister define middle income?

The Minister without interruption, please.

I did not use the phrase. I noticed that the Deputy went out of his way again in a radio interview last Sunday to say what I had allegedly said.

How dared I?

To put the record straight, I did not say that.

I accept the word of an impartial reporter.

Deputy Cluskey was not interrupted.

Is the Deputy not willing to accept the word of a Member of this House? Is the Deputy implying that he refuses to accept my word?

I am stating that I accept the accuracy of the report.

So the Deputy is calling me a liar?

The Minister is not being accurate in his report.

Deputy Cluskey, please. The Minister has made a statement and if anybody makes a statement in this House it must be accepted.

The Deputy can have his own opinion about it but the statement must be accepted.

On a point of order, there is a procedure in this House by which any Member may seek the permission of the Chair to make a personal statement. If the Minister wishes to do that then in those circumstances I would accept it but not in a series of interruptions across the floor.

(Interruptions.)

The only purpose Deputy Cluskey is serving is to try to prevent the Minister from making his statement.

That is an unfair comment.

That is how it appears to the Chair. The Minister to conclude.

I thought Deputy Cluskey had asked me a question and out of courtesy I replied. If that constitutes a statement then I have made a statement to the House, but if that does not constitute a statement I will be quite happy to make this statement in whatever form is regarded as appropriate.

The Minister can ask the Chair for guidance in that.

I repeat that I did not make the remarks attributed to me and since I am on that point I did not say that our youth employment programmes had failed. That was another inaccurate report.

But they have failed.

I have argued that we have already given the guarantees which protect those on social welfare benefits and that therefore the effect of any action in this area would result in a change of a kind that Deputy Cluskey, if he is serious in his professed concern, should support rather than oppose. Therefore, I am amazed at the attitude of the Labour Party on this matter. Perhaps the Labour Party will avail of an opportunity with some of their later speakers, or on another occasion, to spell out what they would regard as an appropriate policy in this area. Deputy Cluskey talked about some of the other documents and performance over the past 18 months, contrasting the Coalition performance with ours.

The Minister has six minutes left.

I do not have the time to have a full discussion on our record but I will comment on it very quickly. In Deputy Cluskey's version the fact that growth reached 3½ per cent is a cause for congratulation at the end of the recession whereas it had nothing to do with the policies of the Coalition. In so far as there was recovery that year it was because sterling was devalued and exports could finally get off the ground again. At the end of a recession when firms have large amounts of idle capacity it ought to be possible to have rapid growth in the economy. Those are the classic circumstances in which every economy achieves its fastest rate of growth. How long had we to wait before we got rapid growth? Not the first year after the recession, 1976, not even well into the second year of the recession up to the summer of 1977. On the contrary, the rapid growth took place after the change of Government because at last confidence was generated and people felt that it was worth while to start working again. We had to wait two years from the worst of the recession before this economy achieved the sort of rapid growth which would have been possible at an earlier date but it never occurred because of the Coalition Government's misguided policies. Now we are achieving it; it is being sustained and will continue into 1979 and later years unless there are some fresh, unforeseen adverse circumstances. But then, nobody is in a position to foretell the future. Certainly, the opportunities are there to maintain that rapid growth and it is on that basis that we can look forward to rising living standards and that we can think in terms not only of making worth-while impacts on our unemployment problem, but also in terms of pressing ahead with improved living standards for people on social welfare benefits as well as for other sections of the community. Deputy Cluskey dealt with the record on unemployment in a distorted manner. I challenged the Deputy to repeat any statement that we promised to reduce the live register by 25,000. I have already dealt with that statement on a number of occasions inside and outside this House. We had very carefully not referred to the live register because there is a confused and uncertain relationship between the true level of employment and unemployment and the numbers recorded on the live register. We had promised a programme to provide 20,000 jobs this year. We are honouring that promise in full. We have made clear that the progress to date is well on target, that we will achieve 20,000 jobs through our programme this year, including the job target in the youth area. I did not say that youth schemes had failed but that they had started late and that despite the delay the programme will still achieve its targets. We have achieved our target. The fact that unemployment may not have fallen by the full 20,000 is bound up with a number of other factors which I do not have time to deal with. Since the Deputy very one-sidedly quoted emigration—and, incidentally, I do not know where the Deputy got the figure of 14,000, because the more recent figures do not support that sort of contention—is it not also a fact that many more young people would have been entering the labour force for the first time? Therefore, to do the kind of peculiar sum which the Deputy did is totally wrong and inaccurate and I hope that the Deputy will correct his approach in this area.

The Minister should conclude now.

I had hoped that the Chair would allow me a minute or two for injury time.

The Minister has about one minute left.

Is the Minister acknowledging that he has been injured?

I am not injured.

Then the Minister is not entitled to injury time.

There is no injury time in this. The Minister lost six minutes due to interruptions but he has only one minute left and he should conclude in that minute.

I would like to have dealt with a number of the other points raised by the Deputy but I will do that on another occasion. I should like to repeat that Fianna Fáil were the first party to advocate the introduction of food subsidies in 1974 and that action was resisted by a bungling, incompetent Coalition. We are now saying that in the appropriate circumstances we do not believe that subsidies should be a permanent feature, that we will phase them out in the appropriate circumstances. The Coalition, being conservative in the true sense of that word, always fearful of any change and never having the courage, the will or the determination to face up to any positive policy making, will oppose that change also. If Deputy Cluskey can be persuaded to stop his crocodile tears and look at the way in which he can truly help the weaker and poorer sections of our community I suggest he withdraw his Motion and vote for our amendment.

I am amazed at the professorial utterances of the Minister. He has treated us to a lecture in theory as to what should be done to extricate us from the problems we now face but the Minister is not on his professorial rostrum; he is now grappling with the practicalities of the political and economic life of the country. The claim made by him that Fianna Fáil were the first in the field in suggesting that food subsidies be introduced in 1974 is nothing short of childishness.

Why is it childish? Is it not true?

Does that make it any less childish?

I was trying to demonstrate that we were capable of identifying the correct policy before anybody else. That is not professorial.

We have been told, no later than Sunday last, that we were trapped by Fianna Fáil into crying wolf too soon and too often and that in the end the things we prophesied would not come true. A correspondent, writing in one of the Sunday newspapers, said that the man facing a death sentence would thank the man who reprieved him more than the man who said he would die. That is a very colourful analogy but it does not make sense. As an Opposition we have an obligation to the people to point out the dangers that lie ahead. The Minister has reiterated the intention of the Government to phase out food subsidies.

I go along with part of the Minister's theory that food subsidies should be introduced in periods of high inflation and when we have a falling standard of living but when the reverse is true they should be withdrawn or abolished, as the case may be. Is the Minister saying that the reverse is true now? I would go 100 per cent with him when he states that the existence of food subsidies as a permanent feature in our economy is not a good thing but is the Minister saying that the time is right to commence the withdrawal of those subsidies? If that is the case there are thousands of people who would not agree with him. One of those people approached me yesterday. She informed me that she was in receipt of £14.35 weekly but had been turned down for a supplementary welfare allowance because, as she was informed, she was not in need and her means were adequate to meet her basic needs. That is the kind of situation that gets away from theory and into the area of practical living and practical politics. Is a person in receipt of that amount of money weekly adequately paid to meet the needs which face her weekly and daily?

In the last six months of 1977 in my county 500 medical cards were withdrawn from people whose means were assessed as being in excess of the guidelines set down. Last week Deputy Creed, in the course of a reply to a Parliamentary Question, was told that in County Cork 6,318 medical cards were withdrawn in the first six months of 1978 because it was felt that the means of those people were in excess of the guidelines. They are the people the Minister described as being well looked after by Fianna Fáil. We have heard some talk about undertakings and in this regard I should like to mention statements by two colleagues of the Minister. In the first week of June 1977 the Fianna Fáil spokesman on agriculture, Deputy Gibbons, in the course of an interview on RTE was asked to outline his party's policy on food subsidies and he stated that in a Fianna Fáil Government he would see to it that not only would they not be withdrawn but, in the case of dairy produce, they would be increased. He felt that that area was capable of greater development and that subsidies were needed to ensure that kind of development. Last February in the House, during the course of a debate on a motion sponsored by the Opposition relating to price increases, the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, Deputy O'Malley, after I had alleged that the withdrawal of food subsidies was being contemplated—that was a long time before the publication of the Green Paper—vehemently denied any such suggestion. However, four or five months later his colleague was able to put it in print that the phasing out of food subsidies was something which the Government was committed to doing in the interest of our economy.

The Minister's theory is that in times of rising inflation and lowering of standards of living subsidies should be introduced and that when the reverse is so they should be withdrawn. With due respect to the Minister I suggest to him that that is nothing short of a very simplistic view of the necessity for food subsidies in the present context. The Minister must be aware that our membership of the EEC has drastically changed our situation. He must know that the benefits accruing to us from our membership are accruing mainly to the farming community. The farming community are the first to admit that fact. Those who do not benefit but who are paying much higher prices are those in the non-farming area, those living in urban and non-farming areas. As Deputy Cluskey stated, one does not have to be in receipt of social welfare benefits, allowances or assistance to be in need and to find it hard to meet one's weekly bills. There are many people in employment with large, and indeed small, families who at this very time, because of rising costs all around them, are finding it most difficult to meet their weekly bills. Putting it in more down-to-earth practical terms, my very simple calculation of the effect of the removal of food subsidies in the case of a married couple with four children would mean, putting it very conservatively, an increase per week in their grocery bill alone of £4.20. This is in regard to the three commodities of butter, milk and bread.

The week before last the National Prices Commission report for July, August and September was published. A survey was published in that report on the shopping habits of old age pensioners in this city. It transpired that this category of people spent up to 45 per cent of their total income, which is a pension, on food alone. Basing this on what the old age pension amounts to, this means—and again this is a very conservative figure—that the extra amount involved through the removal of subsidies on these three commodities would result in an increase of about £1.10 which in turn means an increase of 12½ per cent in their expenditure on food. That brings their expenditure up to over 55 per cent. That is an intolerable situation because the figures from our EEC colleagues indicate that the amount spent on food alone in the EEC countries is much, much lower than that. In fact in some cases the figure spent by the more affluent strata in their societies comes down to 18 per cent.

The Minister got very annoyed at Deputy Cluskey's intervention concerning his Clontarf speech. Let me say that Deputy Cluskey was not the first person to get annoyed. The Minister's own backbenchers, some of them from my own area, made very loud noises last week and did not confine them to this House. They went to the media, provided motions to the press, to radio and television about their concern and what the grassroots were saying concerning the intention to abolish all food subsidies. So the Minister need not worry about what we do or say on this side of the House. He should be much more concerned about what is happening behind his back on the far benches. The hardship which the withdrawal of these subsidies will bring to the most vulnerable sections of our community is something which any Government ought to contemplate very seriously before they move in the direction of withdrawal.

Let me also say something which is of much less serious consequence but which should be taken into account. From a purely farming point of view the reduction in consumption of dairy products, which as we know are being over-produced within the EEC, resulting from the abolition or withdrawal of subsidies would affect the farming community here. When one considers that the latest report, the Hoffman Report, dated 21 September 1978, states that the number of people engaged in agricultural pursuits here is 22.9 per cent as against 2.8 per cent in the United Kingdom, 9.3 per cent in Denmark, 6.4 per cent in the Netherlands and when these figures are taken into account any adverse effects on agricultural production here will be very serious for the economy because of the huge number of people—more than one-fifth of our total population—involved in this area. But that is a minor matter in comparison with the hardship that will be wrought on people who can ill-afford to meet the demands made on them.

I was amazed to hear the Minister eulogising the success he and his Government have had in cutting down unemployment. He told us he would reach the target set in job creation by the end of this year. I may be naïve in many ways, but I can add; and if my calculation is in any way near being right the Minister will have to undertake a fairly major job creation programme between now and Christmas which will necessitate the creation of 1,500 jobs per week between now and Christmas Day. So I would suggest that he would not spend much time around Clontarf between now and Christmas.

The Minister felt that an awful lot was being done in the area of social welfare. Is he aware that all that has been done is to give these people an increase of around 10 per cent this year?

The last increase is up to next April.

As the Deputy has said, they cannot expect anything again until next April and in the meantime the threat of the removal of subsidies is hanging over them. In fact, subsidies have been removed already.

Debate adjourned.
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