asked the Minister for Justice if, in view of the continuous demand for additional gardaí he will (1) replace most of the 500 gardai now engaged on clerical duties with civilian employees; and (2) recall most, if not all, the extra gardaí assigned to Border duties.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Garda Síochána.
16.
It has been the policy for a number of years to release gardai from office duties which can be satisfactorily performed by civilian staff and, since 1970, over 200 civilians have been assigned to clerical duties in Garda offices and stations throughout the country. The Committee of Inquiry recently set up under the chairmanship of Professor W. J. L. Ryan will be considering the whole question of the extent to which types of work at present performed by members of the force could appropriately and with advantage be undertaken by civilians, and the way in which changes in this regard should be implemented.
The number of gardai assigned to particular areas is a matter primarily for the Garda authorities and the number is reviewed from time to time to take account of changing circumstances.
Was the Minister reported recently in negotiations with the Garda——
I have difficulty in hearing the Deputy.
We are mutually affected. May I ask the Minister whether the report which appeared in various newspapers, as a result of his meetings in the not very recent dispute with the gardai and the negotiations with the Garda authorities, is correct in stating that all gardai engaged in clerical and similar duties would be replaced by civilians?
I would refer the Deputy to the report issued on my behalf which dealt with the terms of reference of the Garda Siochana Committee of Inquiry. Paragraph (c) of that report states that the committee will be considering reporting and making recommendations to me on the extent to which types of work at present performed by members of the force could appropriately and with advantage be undertaken by civilians and the way in which changes in this regard should be implemented.
Then the report I saw was not an accurate reflection of the situation.
I would not like to vouch for the accuracy of the report to which the Deputy may be referring. I am not familiar with the report.
I only wish that report, which does not seem to have been accurate, was actually accurate. May I ask the Minister is it not patiently obvious, considering the problem of trying to find anything up to 500 additional gardai for normal police duties, that all members of the force now engaged on clerical duties should be replaced by civilians who would be quite capable of doing the work and, secondly, I seem to recollect a report, perhaps also inaccurate, which would seem to indicate that all gardai engaged on mechanical duties should also be replaced by civilians. That, too, would make extra gardai available.
Again, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the second report to which the Deputy refers because I have not seen it. I am not responsible for it. With regard to the question of civilians replacing gardai on certain duties, that matter is part of the terms of reference of the committee of inquiry which, as the Deputy knows, is now in operation and has been for the last two weeks or so.
I want an answer to the second part of my question. In regard to the recall of personnel now engaged on what is called Border duty, might I ask the Minister is it not as a result of Government policy that replacement of these additional gardaí took place, and his answer to the effect that the movement of personnel is a matter more or less for the internal administration of the gardai is neither accurate nor correct, and would he not consider there are at least 1,000 gardai who could be brought immediately into areas where they are much needed?
It has been the practice, is the practice and will, I hope, continue to be the practice that the number of gardai assigned to particular areas is primarily the responsibility of the Garda authorities. They review the needs of different areas from time to time. They are the professionals in this matter and I would think they are the people best suited for this purpose.
I am calling Question No. 17. We cannot spend all day on this Question.
I quite agree and I would wish all other Members of the House were as reluctant to use the time we have at our disposal as I have been. Finally, might I ask the Minister whether he will inquire from the gardai themselves as to their belief at this moment of the need for unduly large numbers of them cluttered around the Border, with little or nothing to do, men who are badly needed elsewhere, men who are completely frustrated where they are, men who want out of it, and why do we not take them out of it?
That is repetition of a question already asked.
As I have said, the question of the assignment of gardai to a particular area is primarily the responsibility of the Garda authorities. The needs in different areas are reviewed from time to time by the Garda authorities, and, in that review, they take into account the needs and circumstances of the situation.
We can take it so that the Government and the Minister are satisfied to leave it to the Garda authorities to take the surplus gardai from the Border, if they think fit, without intervention on the part of the Government? It was Government intervention put them there.
May I get an assurance from the Minister that before any steps are taken to remove gardai from Border areas he will be satisfied that the troubles which have flared up again in the North in the last week or so will not result in people in the North retaliating? For that reason alone people living along the Border areas at this particular time require a very strong Garda force in those areas.
We are entering the realm of argument now.
I am asking the Minister, who is in charge of security, would he take this into consideration?
(Interruptions.)
I am asking the Minister to ensure, before any gardai are removed, that he is happy about the arrangements?
I think the Minister has answered that question already.
Would the Minister care to assure the House that until such time as he is satisfied that security——
The Deputy is aware the Minister has already answered that question.
He has not assured the House. Nobody wants to see a Castleblayney, or a Monaghan, or a Dublin repeated.
I have every confidence in the Garda authorities' competence to decide on the needs of a particular area from the point of view of the duties that have to be performed.
But the Minister will keep himself fully briefed in the matter. I know the Minister nodded his head but the official record does not record nods of the head.
Mr. Collins
I have every confidence, I repeat, in the ability of the Garda authorities to deploy the force as it should be deployed to meet the demands that have to be met in a particular area at a particular time. I would also like to assure the Deputy that I, as Minister for Justice, am not responsible for the deployment of the Garda Síochána to any of their duties.
I share fully the confidence the Minister has in the Garda force but I want an assurance from him that until such time——
This is repetition. The Chair has called Question No. 17.
I have already given every assurance I can to the Deputy and the House.
17.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will consider arming the Garda Siochana in view of the many raids throughout the country.
It is not proposed to depart from the long-established policy of having an unarmed police force. The extent to which certain members of the force should be armed for particular duties is the subject of a continuing review.
Am I to assume from that reply that the Minister is satisfied with the present security system? Is he aware that many countries in Western Europe have an armed police force and the system seems to work smoothly?
Not generally.
In reply to Deputy Murphy, since its inception the Garda Síochána has been an unarmed force and down the years the policy has been that it remains an unarmed force. There have been occasions in the past when, because of upsurges of armed violence in the State, calls have been made for the arming of the police. The Garda Siochana themselves have always staunchly maintained that they stay unarmed. The arming of the gardai to meet the challenge posed by armed criminal elements will not stop criminals from using firearms, a fact that is evident in other jurisdictions where the police are armed.
Arming the police could well produce situations in which inevitably shoot-outs would escalate and possibly innocent civilians would be killed. Moreover, an armed police force could have a serious adverse affect on the Garda role as a community service and on the capacity of the Garda Siochana to act as guardians of the peace. The significant rise in armed robberies that has featured in the crime statistics in recent years is the reason given for arming the Garda. Serious though the situation is, it is not of the proportions that would call for such a drastic revision of policy. Certain members of the Garda who are assigned to specific duties and who operate in plain clothes carry arms. This has always been the position. The number of men in the Detective Branch is being considerably increased at present and these members can be armed when assigned to particular duties. Additionally the Garda authorities can and do call on support from the Army in situations where they require armed support.
Is the Minister satisfied with a recent front page statement in the Irish Independent indicating that more than £1½ million was taken in armed robberies during the past 12 months and that of that large sum only 1.86 per cent was recovered? We must assume that the raids were 98.14 per cent successful.
Question No. 18.
Surely we cannot accept that our security position is correct when armed raids seem to be a most successful enterprise.
Question No. 18.
I reject the implication in the supplementary question put by Deputy Michael Pat Murphy that the Garda as a body should be armed.
He who pays the piper calls the tune. Is that not a matter for the Government to decide? All I am asking the Minister is if the statement is correct that only 1.86 per cent of property stolen since this Government took office was recovered and that 98.14 per cent was retained. Is that a factual assessment of the position, as given in the newspaper, or not? I believe it is.
I would refer the Deputy to the latter part of my reply to his first supplementary question which more than adequately covers the point he is now raising again. I said that the significant rise in armed robberies that has featured in crime statistics in recent years is being given as a reason for arming the Garda. I say that, serious though this situation is, it is not of the proportions that would call for such a drastic revision of policy, that certain members of the force who are assigned to specific duties and who operate in plain clothes carry arms, that this has always been the position, that the number of men in the Detective Branch is being considerably increased at present and that these members can be armed when assigned to particular duties.
Question No. 18.
A final question. Am I correct in stating that the 1.86 per cent of the stolen property recovered was recovered mainly due to the fact that the raiders were accosted by armed gardaí?
I am sure that the thinking of——
Were it not for that fact, none of the property would have been recovered.
I am sure that the thinking of Deputy Michael Pat Murphy would be somewhat coloured if some innocent by-standers were shot on the streets.
I reject that comment. People are standing by in Belgium, Holland, France, Germany and in other countries and they have nothing to fear.
This is argument. I am calling the next question.
If arming the Garda is not the answer—and I share the Minister's view on this—what is the Minister doing about the armed raids?
I have already covered that, if the Deputy had listened on both occasions when I told Deputy Murphy what we were doing with regard to increasing the number of men in the Detective Branch throughout the country.
Question No. 18.
It is under review, I know——
Sorry?
——but meanwhile robberies are occurring in Donegal and in——
I never once mentioned the word "review".
No, but it is implicit in the Minister's answer.
No, it is not.
While the Minister fiddles banks are being robbed.
The Deputy is not being very helpful.
I resent that. I tried to contact the Minister during the entire Summer Recess, but he went to ground. The Minister is harder to get than the fellows robbing the banks.
If the Deputy expects me to create a platform every time he feels the political need for one to further his own personal interests, I cannot oblige him.
In my public statements I offered the Minister every assistance, but he did not even acknowledge them.
Even the Garda have rejected the Deputy's offers of help and efforts to assist them.
The Minister could be surprised on that.
Order, please.
When I become as unpopular with the Garda as the Minister has become during the past few months I will reconsider my position.
When the Deputy has, he can review his position.
Question No. 18.