An Bille um Údarás na Gaeltachta, 1978: An Coiste. Údarás na Gaeltachta Bill, 1978: Committee Stage.

Aontaíodh alt 1.
Section 1 agreed to.
ALT 2.
SECTION 2.
Tairgeadh an cheist: "Go bhfanfaidh alt 2 mar chuid den Bhille."
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

Could the Minister indicate to us whether he has any plans for reviewing the present extent of the areas determined as Gaeltacht areas, what mechanism there is in his Department for such a review, and whether or not it is an ongoing process?

Níl aon rud ar siúl i láthair na huaire faoi na cúrsaí seo ach sé an gnáth rud atá ann ná an rud a tharla in aman-nta caite go raibh na teorainneacha leagtha síos de réir uimhir na bpáisti a bhí ag fáil na deich bpúnt sna scoileanna. Tá cúpla áit atá ag iarraidh teacht isteach san nGaeltacht—síleann siad gur cheart dóibh bheith istigh—áiteachta atá ar na himill, mar a déarfa. Is dócha go bhfuil argóintí acu, ach sé an deacracht a bhíonn ann corr uair go dtógtar isteach toghroinn an cheantair nuair a thugtar isteach limistéar. Bíonn sé deacair, má thógann tú isteach toghroinn an cheantair ar fad——

Cad é sin?

Sin an nós a bhí ann go dtí seo, go dtógtaí isteach togh-roinn an cheantair, electoral division, mar a déarfá, agus sa chás sin bíonn deacrachtaí ann corr uair go mbeidh tú ag tógáil isteach go leor daoine nach cuid den Ghaeltacht iad agus nach bhfuil Gaeilge acu. Is dócha go gcaithfear athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar an rud ar fad ach níl sé ar siúl i láthair na huaire.

Cuireadh agus aontaíodh an cheist.

Question put and agreed to.
Aontaíodh altanna 3 go 5 go huile.
Sections 3 to 5, inclusive, agreed to.
ALT 6.
SECTION 6.

Tá leasú a 1 as ord.

Tairgeadh an cheist: "Go bhfanfaidh alt 6 mar chuid den Bhille."

Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Ar an dtaobh seo den Teach nílimid sásta leis an chuid seo den Bhille, mar gheall ar an mhodh ina cheapfar formhór de bhaill an Údaráis. Tá alt 6 agus alt 20 an-chongarach dá chéile, agus d'fhéadfaimís caint a dhéanamh orthu le chéile.

Má cheanglaítear alt a 6 le halt a 28 agus muna nglactar le alt a 6, ní h-aon chabhair bheith ag caint faoi alt a 28 ná leasú atá molta ag an Teachta faoi alt a 28.

Ach beimid ag caint ar an rud céanna arís. Má chríochnaimíd anois le alt 6 (2) táimid críochnaithe le alt a 28.

Tá an Cathaoirleach sásta.

Ní haon chabhair bheith ag caint faoi alt a 28 más rud é nach nglactar leis an leasú atá molta anseo ar uimhir a 6.

Measaim féin go mba cheart baill a bheith ag na Gaeltachtaí beaga go mór mhór i bPort Láirge, Corcaigh agus Rath Cairn, Co. na Mí. Dá mbeadh an tAire toilteanach an tÚdarás a mhéadú go dtí a 20 bheadh gach duine sásta.

As the Minister knows, there are many more pressures on the smaller Gaeltachtaí than the bigger ones especially Corcaigh, Port Láirge agus Ráth Chairn. Some representation should be given to those Gaeltachtaí. I think the House would be unanimous on that. As the Bill stands, it is quite possible that two people from Kerry could be elected. It is quite on the cards that two Kerry men would be elected and County Meath would have no hope of electing somebody when they are in with the Connemara Gaeltacht, because the representations from that side of the country will come from Mayo and Connemara. I would urge the Minister to give some representation to the smaller Gaeltachtaí because there are more pres-sures on them than there are on the big places.

I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate the smaller Gaeltachtaí who have kept the flag flying through very difficult years. I appeal very passionately to the Minister to accept that there is no hope of these people getting a voice on the Údarás as the Bill now stands. If two men are elected from Kerry, they will not go to Waterford or to Cork to find out what the views are there unless they get a substantial salary. That is the reality of the situation. Iarraim ar an Aire féachaint ar sin.

When this matter was discussed on Second Stage the Minister made the point—and it was a very reasonable point—that you could not give representation to every townland in the Gaeltacht because of the danger of establishing an Údarás that was too large and too unwieldly. I have a lot of sympathy with that point of view and I suspect Deputy Begley has also.

In relation to the size of the Údarás proposed by Deputy Begley in his amendment, it could be said that such an Údarás would not be too large and too unwieldy. I have not got by me details of the numbers of members of other authorities in the State, but I would certainly think that in comparison with the RTE Authority and perhaps Bord na Gaeilge and other institutions of a similar nature anything up to about 20 at the absolute maximum would be reasonable for the purposes of ensuring adequate representation and efficient administration. I agree with the force of Deputy Begley's remarks in relation to representation for the smaller Gaeltachtaí because I believe that few things will case harden the sense of identity and the sense of growth and of responsibility for the language in the smaller Gaeltachtaí than the election of their own representatives to An tÚdarás. The suggestion of ten elected members is a very fair compromise between the needs of representation and the needs of efficient administration.

There is however another point to be considered in conjunction with this and that is that An tÚdarás will be carrying out a number of very technical and complex tasks in relation to the assessment of financial and industrial and business propositions which are brought before it. There is no doubt that ministerial appointments can and will and should be used in order to ensure that An tÚdarás has the right measure of technical industrial and professional expertise to enable it adequately to evaluate such projects. It may be, in the circumstances, that five members to be nominated by the Minister is not quite enough to secure the purposes that we are talking about, especially if we are going to increase the election representation to ten. I would have no objection to a slight increase in the number of nominated representatives provided always that the fundamental principle of the majority of elected representatives was maintained. I believe that we could have up to, say, eight representatives nominated by the Minister which would leave An tÚdarás with a maximum number of 18 which is still well within the bounds of efficiently administering the services for which An tÚdarás will be responsible. We would be grateful to hear the Minister on this point.

Tá dian-mhachnamh déanta agam féin ar na cúrsaí seo agus aontaím leis an rud adeireann an Teachta Begley go bhfíul an-obair déanta ag na Gaeltachtaí beaga agus go bhfuil sé deacair a thuiscint corr uair cén chaoi ar sheas siad chomh fada seo. Os ag caint ar sin muid sílim féin de réir an méid a fheicim óna Gaeltachtaí sin gurb iad is faide a sheasas anois, fiú amháin gur fearr an seans atá acu ná atá ag na Gaeltachtaí móra. Níl ansin ach barúil de mo chuid féin. Tá sé íontach deacair gach rannóg nó gach cuid den Ghaeltacht a shású agus ar ndóigh mar a thuigeann tú féin, cuirimíd i gcás, níl sé cinnte fiú amháin go mbeidh duine ó Chontae Mhaigh Eó. Níl sé dearfa in aon chor. D'féadfadh an triúr a theacht ó Chonamara, cuirimíd i gcás, ó Ghaillimh.

Níl mé i bhfábhar coiste mór leadránach. Tá taithí agam féin ar choistí. Ní shílim go dtig le coiste atá ró-mhór obair thairbheach ar bith a dhéanamh. Chíor muid é seo chomh mion agus a d'fhéadfadh muid agus dá bhrí sin caithfidh mé cloí leis an rud atá sa Bhille. Ansin na daoine a bhéas ainmnithe beidh seans acu filleadh ar áiteacha nár éirigh leo ins na toghcháin agus ar an gcaoi sin go mbeadh deis acu go gcluinfí céard atá le rá acu ar an Údarás féin nuair a bhéas sé ag feidhmiú. Ní shilim gur fiú a bheith ag trácht air nó go dtig liom tada eile a rá faoi. Mar adúirt mé, tá an rud cíortha agam cheana agus sílim gur fearr gan an coiste a bheith ró-mhór, gan a bheith róleadránach.

Ag freagairt don Aire ansin, dúirt sé b'fhéidir nach raibh aon seans ag Contae Mhaigh Eó. As na figiúirí atá agamsa ó cheist a chuireas isteach chuig an Aire Comhshaoil maidir leis an daonra sna Ghaeltachtaí, i Dún na nGall, tá 6,939; i nGaillimh, tá 16,674; i Mhaigh Eó, tá 9,670. Tá seans maith ag fear ó Mhaigh Eó nuair atá breis agus 9,000 guthaí aige. Tá ana sheans aige mar níl ach 16,900 i gConamara ar fad. Mar sin má théann Maigh Eó laistiar den Mayo man, sin sin. I Mí níl ach 773 agus Port Láirge, 748. I gCorcaí tá 2,193. Idir Ciarraí ar fad tá breis agus 6,000. Mar sin tá ard seans ag Ciarraí dhá shuíochán a thógaint. I gConamara measaim féin go mbeidh dhá shuíochán ag na Gail-limhigh agus ceann amháin ag Maigh Eó agus i Dún na nGall beidh dhá shuíochán. Mar sin nílimíd ag tabhairt cothrom na féinne leis na figiúirí atá againn dos na Gaeltachtaí beaga. Nílim chun a bheith leadránach mar gheall ar seo, ach tá sé beartaithe agam an leasú seo a chur go dtí vótáil mura n-aontaíonn an tAire linn.

Cuireadh an cheist.

Question put.
Rinne an Coiste vótáil: Tá, 61; Níl, 45.
The Committee divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 45.

  • Ahern, Kit.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Cogan, Barry.
  • Colley, George.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Farrell, Joe.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin South-Central).
  • Fitzsimons, James N.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Fox, Christopher J.
  • Gallagher, Dennis.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • O'Connor, Timothy C.
  • O'Donoghue, Martin.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael J.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Cosgrave, Michael J.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • D'Arcy, Michael J.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Donnellan, John F.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Horgan, John.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • Lipper, Mick.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies P. Lalor and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies Creed and B. Desmond.
Question declared carried.
Airitheoirí: Tá, Teachtaí P. Lalor agus Briscoe; Níl, Teachtaí Creed a gus B. Desmond.
Faisnéiseadh go rabhthas tar éis glacadh leis an gceist.
ALT 7.
SECTION 7.
Tairgeadh an cheist: "Go bhfanfaidh alt 7 mar chuid den Bhille."
Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill."

Ins na páipéirí le déanaí agus ar chlár radio, chualamar ó bhainistíocht Ghaeltarra Eireann go raibh sort eagla orthu anois i dtaobh Údaráis na Gaeltachta. Chuaigh bainisteor Gaeltarra ar RTÉ coicís ón lá inniu agus san agallamh a thug sé bhí eagla air toisc nach raibh industrialists ag teacht insteach sa Ghaeltacht anois. Measaim gur thainig cuid den eagla sin ón Bhille seo. Sin é an rud atá á chur isteach orm.

Níl a fhios agam conas a tharla é sin. Tá fhios ag chuile dhuine go raibh deacrachtaí ag Gaeltarra, ach mar a dúirt bainisteoir Ghaeltarra níl tíonchar ar bith ag bunú an Udaráis ar chursaí mar sin.

Tagann sé suas go mór mhór i dtaobh alt a 15. Sin é ar rud atá ag cur isteach ar an mbainistíocht: beidh eolas ag daoine mar gheall ar tionsclaíocht agus an mbeidh siad ábálta an t-eolas sin a úsáid i gcoinne an tionsclaíocht?

The confidentiality of members of the board comes up again in section 15 which tries to protect that confidentiality. This is the point that is worrying the bainistíocht of Gaeltarra Éireann, that is, that the private affairs of a company can now be discussed openly by an elected board. That is why I think it applies to section 7 also. This misgiving, I believe, is genuinely held by the management of Gaeltarra Éireann and that is why I am doubtful about section 7.

Tá an Teachta Begley díreach tar éis a mholadh go mbeadh 15 daoine tofa ar an Údarás.

Tá an rud atá á rá aige anois díreach in aghaidh an rud a bhí á rá aige cúpla nóiméad ó shin. Nílim cinnte cad tá i gceist aige.

There is no connection between them.

Tá an Teachta ag rá go mbeidh deacracht ag Gaeltarra de bharr go mbeidh daoine tofa anois óna Gaeltachtaí ar an Udarás, daoine tofa ag pobal na Gaeltachta féin, agus go bfhuil eagla ar fhoireann Ghaeltarra mar gheall ar seo. Más í sin an tuairim atá ag an Teachta níl fhios agam an fáth a mhol an Teachta go dtoghfaí 15 daoine. Níl an dá rud ag teacht le chéile.

Tá mé ag cur os comhair na Tí seo na rudaí a bhí le léamh ar na páipéirí agus le cloisteáil ar an radio agus sin í an áit ceart cur síos orthu.

Más rud é go bhfuil fadhbanna ag bainisteoir Ghaeltarra Éireann tig leis teacht chugamsa mar Aire leis na fadhbanna sin. Ach níor luaigh sé é sin liom. Má dúirt sé go poiblí é—ní

fhaca mise an ráiteas nó ní chuala mé é—agus nach bhfuil sé á rá liomsa, ní shílim gur rud róshásúil é sin. Ní fheicimse cén fáth go mbeadh aon imní ar fhoireann Ghaeltarra nuair atá muintir na Gaeltachtaí féin tofa mar bhaill den bhord nó den Údarás. Ní fheicimse an deacracht atá ann.

Cuireadh agus aontaíodh an cheist. Question put and agreed to.

ALT 8.

SECTION 8.

Tairgim leasú 2:

Ar leathanach 9, líne 33, "mar theanga labhartha" a scriosadh agus "mar phríomh-mheán cumarsáide" a chur ina ionad.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 8, line 33, to delete "the use of Irish as a vernacular language" and substitute "the use of the Irish language as the principal medium of communication".

Nuair a rinneamar athscrúdú ar an mBille shílmuid go raibh sé beagánín lag agus táimid ag moladh an leasú seo. Sílim go gcuireann sé an cheist níos láidre agus níos tréine ó thaobh áit na Gaeilge fhéin. Níl mórán difríochta idir an leasú seo agus an ceann atá molta ag an dTeachta Horgan. Tá siad ar chomhchéim nach mór. Iarraim ar an dTeachta Horgan glacadh leis an leasú seo.

The original phrasing of the Bill was, as the Minister agrees, rather weak. It referred, in English, to the preservation and the extension of the use of Irish as a vernacular language of the Gaeltacht. This undifferentiated treatment of Irish was very inadequate because it simply gave it the role of being a vernacular language among vernacular languages. Perhaps there are parts of the Gaeltacht where, at certain times of the year, the vernacular languages include not only English but German, Dutch and French. It is important to give the Irish language a more specific and more powerful status. It is very difficult to confer rights on a language because a language is not something that is disembodied. It is spoken by people but in so far as it is possible to confer rights on it, this should be done. While the Minister's amendment is an improvement on the original phraseology I would hope to strengthen it further by way of my additional amendment.

Aontaíodh an leasú.

Amendment agreed to.

Tairgím leasú a 3:

Ar leathanach 9, fo-alt (1), líne 33, "mar theanga" a scriosadh agus "mar phríomh-theanga" a chur ina ionad.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 8, subsection (1), line 33, to delete "a" and substitute "the primary".

An difríocht atá i gceist againn anois, sé an difríocht idir na focail atá ins an mBille anois, tar éis an leasú deireanach a dhéanamh, agus na focail atá ins an leasú. Mar a dúirt mé, ní raibh an Bille ar an slí ceart ar an gcéad dul síos. Tá leasú ón Aire déanta agus cuireann sé feabhas ar an mBille ach níl sé ceart fós. Níl sé láidir fós. The difference between the language of the Bill as it stands now and the language of my amendment can be stated easily. The Ministerial amendment substitutes the phrase "the use of the Irish language as the principal medium of communication". Any of us here who will be familiar with the issues during the past decade involving the Irish language will know where this phrase comes from. It comes from a report of the Commission on the Revival of the Irish language and was the agreed consensus terminology of that commission in relation to the Irish language but the point about that commission was that they were referring to the Irish language in the country as a whole and that they defined the aim they would like to see the Government adopting to make Irish the principal medium of communication throughout the country as a whole. If this is to be the aim of the Government, the aim of all parties in this House and of the community generally, it follows that our aim for the Gaeltacht should be stronger than this and the words of my amendment would delete "a" and substitute the words "the primary" or "mar phríomh-theanga". This is as explicit as I can make it and I urge the Minister to consider the amendment favourably.

Níl morán difríochta san dá rud atá ar súil againn. Sílim go bhfuil "príomhmheánchumar-sáide" níos leithne, go dtugann sé isteach níos mó ná an leasú atá molta.

In view of the not totally dismissive attitude of the Minister to my amendment I shall withdraw it, with the permission of the House, while reserving the right to reintroduce it on Report Stage. This will give the Minister, too, an opportunity of reconsidering it.

Tarraingíodh siar an leasú, faoi chead.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tairgím leasú a 4:

Ar leathanach 9, fo-alt (3), líne 43, "seachas" a scriosadh agus "de bhreis ar" a chur ina ionad.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 8, subsection (3), lines 44 and 45, to delete "other than" and substitute "in addition to".

This amendment relates to the last two lines of subsection (3) which read:

...such industries and productive schemes of employment as it thinks fit other than those referred to in subsection (2).

I believe there has been simply a grammatical mistake here and that the form of words needed in order to give effective expression to what is intended by the Bill is "in addition to" rather than the words "other than", because the latter is an exclusive term and might create subsequent legal difficulties. Therefore, I should be grateful for the observations of the Minister on this problem.

Arís, is ceist tearmaíochta atá ann. Ni fheicim go ndéanfaidh sé morán athraithe ar an mBille féin thar an rud atá san mBille cheana. San Ghaeilge siad na focail atá ann "seachas" agus "de bhreis air"—"seachas" atá in Alt a 8 agus "de bhreis air" a bheadh á chur in a áit leis an leasú seo. Níl morán difríochta eatarthu.

This is merely a drafting amendment and it is something the Minister should consider between now and Report Stage. If he is prepared to do that, I am prepared to withdraw the amendment.

Ceart go leór. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 5 has been ruled out of order.

Cuireadh an cheist: "Go bfhanfhaidh alt a 8, mar a leasaíodh, mar chuid den Bhille."

Question proposed: "That section 8, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

An dtugann an Bille aon chumhacht ar bith don Údarás i leith teanga na Gaeilge? An mbeidh cead ag an Údarás airgead a chaitheamh leis an nGaeilge mar theanga a láidríú sna Gaeltachtaí? Cén bealach a bhéas ann chun go mbeadh nascadh nó comhnascadh idir an Údarás, na Gaeltachtaí agus Roinn na Gaeltachta? Tá cumhachtaí ag Roinn na Gaeltachta i leith an chultúir agus na teangan san Ghaeltacht. Cén ceangail a bheidh idir an Údarás le Bord na Gaeilge? Cén bhaint a bheidh ag an Údarás leis an Roinn Oideachais? Measaim féin go mba cheart é a bheith soiléir ó alt a 8 go mbeidh cumhachtaí ag an Údarás airgead a chaitheamh ar an Gaeilge agus an cultúr agus an fhorbairt a leanúint san Ghaeltacht. Ba chóir é sin a bheith scriofa san mBille. On section 8, I ask the Minister if this subsection gives the Údarás any powers whatsoever in regard to the Irish language. Can the Údarás spend money to strengthen the language in the Gaeltacht? How is it proposed that the Údarás will fit into Roinn na Gaeltachta, which have a statutory duty in relation to cultural matters in the Gaeltacht, with Bord na Gaeilge which have a national responsibility for the language, and with the Department of Education, which should have a national responsibility for the language but which have reneged it entirely.

Tá forbairt á dhéanamh i leith leathadh na Gaeilge, agus tá deontaisí ar leith á bhfáil maidir leis an obair seo. I láthair na huaire tá cúraimí cúltúrtha, dul chun cinn na teanga san Ghaeltacht féin ag brath níos mó ar Roinn na Gaeltachta ná ar rannóg ar bith eile. Tá deontais á n-íoc ag Roinn na Gaeltachta leis na cuspóirí sin a bhaint amach. Tá cuid mhaith scéimeanna atá faoi chúram Roinn na Gaeltachta maidir leis na cursaí sin ar fad. Anois níl sé istigh sa Bhille go mbeidh na cúraimí sin ar an Údarás, ach ní fheicimse go mbeidh aon fhadhb ann más rud é leis an am, go dteastaíonn ón Údarás na cúraimí sin a ghlacadh chucu féin, agus ní i leith na rudaí sin amháin ach i leith cúrsaí cile a bhaineann leis an Ghaeltacht a bheidh siad ag iarraidh cumhachtaí a ghlacadh chucu féin, cumhachtaí a shílfeadh siad go dteastódh uathu le cúrsaí na Gaeltachta a reachtáil. Ní fheicimse go mbeidh aon deacrachtaí sna cúrsaí sin san am atá le teacht, ach sílim go bhfuil sé níos daonlathaí ag an bpointe seo a fhágáil ag an Údarás féin a leagan amach céard iad na cúraimí a ghlac-faidh siad maidir leis na cursaí seo a chur chun cinn.

I would like to address myself to section 8 (2) which states:

An tÚdarás shall, subject to section 10, carry on, control and manage (either directly or, in any particular case, through a body corporate controlled by an tÚdarás) the industries and productive schemes of employment carried on, controlled or managed, directly or indirectly, by Gaeltarra Éireann immediately before the appointed day.

Possibly an opportunity has been lost here to create, in place perhaps of the old Gaeltarra Éireann structure, a general holding company which would make the Údarás an effective agent of industrial development in the Gaeltacht. The history of Gaeltarra Éireann since their inception has been that of an institution which has grown and developed in ways that were not always entirely foreseen. For example, Gaeltarra Éireann now have shares of one kind or another in around 70 companies and in perhaps half of those they have a controlling interest. The logic of the phrase "in any particular case through a body corporate controlled by an tÚdarás" is that this total of 70 companies, some of whom are effectively controlled subsidiaries, is going to be increased. Instead of a general gathering in of the industrial promotional and development activities of Gaeltarra Éireann, now to become the Údarás, we have the possibility of further proliferation and further complications of these activities.

I have always thought it strange that the chief executive of Gaeltarra Éireann who has a larger number of subsidiaries under his wing than the head of almost any other semi-State company, should be ranked so low on the famous Devlin scale. If the industrial development of the Gaeltacht is to be carried out along the lines suggested in subsection (2) his life is going to become even more complicated and his worries even more extensive. Is the Minister sympathetic to the idea of Gaeltarra Éireann, now to become the Údarás, as a general holding company which would encompass globally as much industrial development in the Gaeltacht as possible, or as an umbrella covering a huge number of companies, privately owned and part publicly owned, in view simply of the growing complexity of managing such a network of companies?

Is fíor a rá go bhfuil cruth ar Ghaeltarra anois nach raibh air nuair a bunaíodh an t-eagras ar dtús, agus dá bharr sin tharla go raibh go leor deacrachtaí ag an bhfoireann ansin maidir le cúrsaí a reachtáil mar ba mhaith leo, ach tharla taobh istigh de cúpla mí ó shin anois go bhfuil atheagrú déanta ar an bhfoireann ar fad ansin. Tá rannóga faoi leith agus daoine faoi leith a bhfuil cúram orthu maidir leis na rannóga sin, agus sílim de bharr an atheagraithe a deineadh ar an bhfoireann nach bhfuil sé chomh deacair ar an mbainisteoir féin anois na cúraimí a bhí air a dhéanamh. Tá daoine speisialta, daoine a bhfuil eolas acu ar chúrsaí bainistíochta, agus tuigim i láthair na huaire nach bhfuil na deacrachtaí céanna aige agus a bhí de bharr seo.

Maidir leis an rud a luaigh an Teachta Horgan faoi chomhlacht speisialta, sin rud nach ndearna mé scrúdú air. Tuigim, ar bhealach, nach mbeidh an tÚdarás ag casadh le boird chomhlachtaí eile. Beidh siad ag tabhairt aire do chúrsaí gnó agus níl siad cosúil leis na daoine a bhíonn tofa ar bhoird chomhlachtaí mar a thuigimid é. Níl mé ag rá ag an bpointe seo go n-aontaím gur cheart cloí ar fad leis an méid a dúirt an Teachta Horgan ar an rud seo, ach b'fhéidir nuair a thoghfar an tÚdarás go bhféadfaidh siad an rud sin a scrúdú. Ní hionann daoine a bheith tofa agus an tÚdarás féin agus board of directors mar a thuigimíd é. Tá súil agam go n-oibreoidh sé ceart go leor, ach b'fhéidir go mbeadh deacrachtaí ann.

Léann alt 8 (1) mar seo:

(1) Déanfaidh an tÚdarás caomhnú agus leathadh na Gaeilge mar theanga labhartha sa Ghaeltacht a spreagadh agus cinnteoidh sé gurb i an Ghaeilge a úsáidfear a mhéid is féidir nuair a bheidh a fheidhmeanna á gcomh-lionadh aige agus thar a cheann.

Fágann sé sin nach bhfuil aon dualgas leagtha ar an Údaras i leith na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht pioc níos troma ná an dualgas a bhí ann nuair a bunaíodh Gaeltarra Éireann. Nuair a bunaíodh Gaeltarra Éireann i 1957 is mar seo a léigh alt 4 (2) d'Acht um Thionscail na Gaeltachta:

Is é dualgas an Bhoird cabhrú le caomhaint agus leathnú na Gaeilge mar ghnáthurlabhra sa Ghaeltacht.

Ní raibh na cumhachtaí breise scríobhtha isteach san Bhille. Tá sé ceart go leor don Aire a rá anseo nuair a thoghfar an tÚdarás gur féidir leo teacht go dtí an Rialtas agus go bhféadfadh an tAire ordaithe a dhéanamh chun comhachtaí breise a thabhairt don Údarás. On this particular point the section is so similar to the section when Gaeltarra Éireann was established in 1957 that the similarity is quite remarkable. We have the Minister coming in here then, tongue in cheek, telling us that when Údarás looks for powers the Government will give them to them. If we want to give the powers, then today is the day to do that, whether they be powers in regard to planning, deontais and so on. We should spell out in black and white what we want the Údarás to accomplish and the way it should go. The Minister says if Údarás looks for powers they will get them. No one can say what will con-stitute the Government of the day in the next ten years. No one can make a commitment for a Government which is not in existence and so no one can say a Government will give powers. I would ask the Minister to be more specific and not indulge in vague generalities about powers which can be got if they are looked for.

Tá sé leagtha amach i rannóg eile den Bhille go dtig leis an Udarás na cumhachtaí a theastaíonn uathu a fháil agus sílim gur rud daonlathach é a fhágáil faoin Údarás iad féin nuair a thoghfar iad a leagan amach go díreach céard iad na cumhachtaí a theastaíonn uathu, agus ní bheidh aon mhoill orthu ordú a fháil ón Rialtas leis na cumhachtaí sin a fháil.

Cuireadh agus aontaíodh an cheist.

Question put and agreed to.
ALT NUA.
NEW SECTION.

Tairgím leasú a 6:

Ar leathanach 11, roimh alt 9, alt nua a chur isteach mar a leanas:

"9—(1) Chun forbairt na Gaeltachta a chur chun cinn ó thaobh teanga, geilleagair, sóilsialachta, cultúir agus gnéithiúlachta feidhmeoidh an tÚdarás, maidir leis an nGaeltacht, ó dháta an Achta seo a theacht in éifeacht, na cumhachtaí i ndáil le deonú cead pleanála a bhíonn á bhfeidhmiú faoi na hAchtanna Rialtais Áitiúil (Pleanála agus Forbartha) 1963 go 1976 i leith na Gaeltachta ag na húdaráis phleanála éagsúla ar ina gcuid limistéar atá an Ghaeltacht.

(2) Ní chuirfidh aon ní san alt seo srian le ceart aon iarratasóra achomharc a dhéanamh chun an Bhoird Phleanála."

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 10, before section 9, to insert a new section as follows:

"9—(1) For the purpose of promoting the linguistic, economic, social, cultural and environmental development of the Gaeltacht, an tÚdarás shall in respect of the Gaeltacht, exercise from the date of the coming into effect of this Act the powers in relation to the granting of planning permission exercised under the Local Government (Planning and Development) Acts 1963 to 1976 in respect of the Gaeltacht by the various planning authorities in whose areas the Gaeltacht is situated.

(2) Nothing in this section shall restrict the right of any applicant to appeal to an Bord Pleanála.".

This amendment is, I think, really at the core of our approach to the Bill. There are really two amendments locked into one and, depending on the fate of these amendments at this stage, I would reserve the right to reintroduce at least one of them on Report Stage.

The first part of the amendment simply reorders the words in subsection (1).

As they are in the Bill they read:

For the purpose of promoting the economic, social, cultural, linguistic and physical development of the Gaeltacht an tÚdarás shall have ...

The initial part of my amendment makes two linguistic changes which are, I believe, of importance. The first one is to reorder the words in order to put "linguistic" at the head of the list.

Tugadh tuairisc ar a ndearnadh; an Coiste do shuí aris.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Business suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.