Vol. 310 No. 7
I move:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1978, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry including sundry grants-in-aid.
I will deal first of all with the development of inland fisheries. I am disappointed that we have not yet had a chance to study the promised legislation on the restructuring of this industry.
The Deputy will have it in a few days.
Last June in answer to a question by Deputy Flynn, the Minister said the Second Stage of the Bill would be taken on the first sitting day after the recess.
Deputy Deasy is allowed to ask a question but, strictly speaking, he cannot discuss legislation on an Estimate.
It is now ready for printing.
Unfortunately there is a great need for restrictions on salmon fishing and the sooner we face up to this fact the better. It is said to relate that this year the catch was half what it was in 1975.
The restrictions are being announced today. They will be in tomorrow morning's papers.
I will be very interested to see them. This is causing a great deal of distress to genuine fishermen and everybody interested in conservation. We will look forward to the promised legislation and hope it will introduce these restrictions.
I can bring in restrictions under existing legislation without waiting for new legislation. They will be in tomorrow's papers. I will give the Deputy a copy.
On the aspect of sea fishing I am very disappointed that the Minister has not agreed to implement the draft proposals placed before him by the Irish Fishermen's Organisation. These proposals have been published for some three months. They would really guarantee the future of the fishing industry if they were implemented, and the cost is not very great. It would probably represent a saving on the cost of our existing fishery protection service if these proposals which have tremendous advantages were implemented. A document on fisheries which goes into such detail and which makes such good sense has never been produced here and I hope that the Minister appreciates the work done by this organisation. The idea of getting the Community to pay a portion of the costs and to get the countries whose boats are fishing in our waters to pay at least half of the cost is very good sense and it would eliminate a great deal of the hardship imposed on the Naval Service. The same effort would not be needed to patrol our 200 mile limit as is needed now if a fishery protection officer placed on board each foreign vessel entering our waters was able to observe the fishing effort. Not alone that but such an officer could observe the areas from which the various species come. This would save a lot of effort on the part of the fishery protection service and it would provide us with an immense amount of information about fish stocks around our coasts. At the moment we are absolutely ignorant of the fish in the sea about us.
I know that in recent years BIM undertook a series of surveys using Irish fishing boats whereby the boats were paid by the board for surveying the type of fish available in certain areas. These have been reasonably successful. Good fishing grounds have been found off the Donegal coast for instance, but such surveys would not be necessary if there were fishery protection officers on board the boats who could survey the catch as part of their duties.
I cannot understand the reticence of the Minister to acknowledge the worth of these proposals. The Minister would be going a long way towards improving relations between himself and the fishing organisations if he implemented these proposals. Those relations unfortunately have not been good in recent years.
They are excellent.
I would like if they were greatly improved because that organisation represents the bulk of sea-going people here and they have a lot to offer. For the good of the country and the sake of fisheries it is necessary that the organisation and the Minister should be seen to pull together. Even if the Minister feels he must climb down a little, I appeal to him to meet them half way. Between the Minister and the organisation they could do a lot for the country.
We have a grey area in relation to grants for boats and harbours. What grants are available has never been sufficiently clear. It may be quite easy to understand the grants available from BIM, but the EEC grants change so often and are so complex that it is not easy for a layman to follow them. I believe that we are not getting the full benefit of the grants available because they have not been explained properly. Sometimes the grants available from the EEC come to light only when the closing date has arrived. Would the Minister make sure that all information on grants for fishing boats is available at the first opportunity?
We are not sure about the grants available for harbours. In reply to a number of questions over the last 12 or 18 months the Minister indicated that such grants are available but we have never been told anything about them. The closest we have got to any concrete information is that grants are available under the regional fund. Are these grants in conjunction with other grants for roads, water schemes and so on? Are they funnelled into central funds and dispersed afterwards in whatever form the Government wish? Can they be given out in social welfare, housing grants and a whole variety of things? It is not at all clear how much is available for harbours, which are a very necessary link in our fisheries. We have the men and we are in the process of getting an adequate fishery fleet, but we lack the coastal facilities. While the project undertaken some ten years ago to build four major fishery harbours is near completion I am afraid that the smaller projects have barely got off the ground. I would be glad it the Minister would clear that up. It is not clear what grants are available from the EEC or what grants are available from the Department of Fisheries for harbour development.
In County Waterford we were told lately that we would get a 25 per cent grant for the improvement of an existing harbour. In reply to recent Dáil questions I saw that a 75 per cent grant is available for certain harbour works in Donegal. Would the Minister clarify the maximum grant available? A lot more people could be working in the fishing industry if the harbours were of a proper quality. At the moment a great deal of them cannot be used to moor boats in winter time. It is not uncommon to have all-weather harbours at a distance of 70 or 80 miles from one another and we need all-weather harbours in strategic positions all around the coast.
There is a great future for small boats. We have been thinking of middle distance trawlers too much. There is a great potential for expansion for small boats which engage in drift netting for herrings and in fishing for white fish or shell fish close to the shore. During the past few years there has been a tremendous increase in the value of fish. While the catch has hardly increased in recent years—in fact it has decreased quite a bit since the early 1970s—the value has increased tremendously. As a money product fish have increased in line with beef and other products.
We could catch the fish if they were there. It is unfortunate that herring fishery after herring fishery has been closed. I appreciate that the Minister is trying to make the best of a bad job and that abuses by Continentals have led to this depletion which makes closures necessary. I hope that the fishing plans the Minister has announced will be implemented to the full. The last fishing plan which was introduced for the west coast expired on 15 October. If we are to maintain existing stocks we must have new fishing plans. Would the Minister tell us why he has not replaced the fishing plan which expired? In regard to marketing——
I would point out to the Deputy that there are only four small subheads in this and we are confined to the four.
We have been dealing with fishery harbour centres and marketing comes within that ambit because the marketing usually occurs at the harbour.
I am afraid that is asking the Chair to accept a heck of a lot.
It is surely a reflection on the marketing facilities that recently 10,000 tons of mackerel were dumped. They could not be used for human consumption because marketing outlets were not available. I should like the Minister to tell us if he has any plans to ensure that that situation does not continue. If we have no outlets we must process at home. We do not seem to be able to sell the raw material that we catch nor do we seem to be able to process it. We understand that it will take a long time to build up processing facilities but in the meantime we should have a marketing outlet.
Mariculture has been very much in the news recently. There was a seminar on this subject in Leenane in County Galway. It was illustrated graphically at the seminar by experts from all over Europe that we have the most outstanding climate and natural indented coastline for the expansion of the mariculture industry. Mariculture is an obvious source of wealth and employment. Mussels, oysters and scallops can be cultivated in abundance. There is a great demand for shellfish and the price is high. I should like to ask the Minister if his Department are taking definite steps to bring about the type of expansion that is available in this sector of the fishing industry. We know that Russia and Japan are advanced in this field. By 1990 the Russians expect to produce more fish by the mariculture method than by deep-sea trawling.
This matter is related to education and training. Recently the Minister admitted that there is neglect in this area. I know that he has brought about some change in that he has transferred responsibility for training from the Department to BIM. This was a step in the right direction. Does the Minister intend to set up another fishery school or does he intend to set up a series of fishery schools? I know that the setting up of such schools would cost a lot of money but it should be a primary consideration in regard to plans for expenditure in the next few years. It is obvious that a great number of our fishermen are inadequately trained. They are unable to use the advanced technology which should be installed in trawlers being built at present. The Minister should tell us what steps he is taking to ensure that the advanced technology is fully used.
When we negotiated The Hague Agreement in 1976 with the other members of the EEC, we were assured that within three years we could double our fishing catch for 1976. In 1976 the catch was 75,000 tons. By 1979 we should be catching 150,000 tons, but as yet we have only slightly increased our 1976 catch. The only way in which we can increase our catch is by fishing farther away from our shore. The day when our fishermen fished within seven or eight miles offshore should be at an end. We must endeavour to fish up to the 50-mile limit. I should like to know if the Minister has any proposals for larger boats for fishing in this area. There is an onus on the Minister to see that we double our catch within a short time.
I should like to add a few words to what has been said on the Fisheries Estimate, particularly under subhead E in relation to inland fisheries development. Although I have had not had the time to do it recently, it has been my good fortune for some years to fish in some of the free rivers. There are still, thank God, free rivers around the country. I hope I will be given the protection of the House if I admit that a rod and line was not always the only way I took fish out of a free river. For the most part, a rod and line was what I used.
I note that we are making a payment of £40,000 under subhead E to the salmon conservation fund. One must really express serious doubts as to whether this is enough because there may soon be no salmon to conserve in some of our waters. I am grateful to hear the Minister say that he is publishing restrictions this evening and I should be grateful for a copy of them in due course, as I am grateful for his reference to the impending fisheries legislation.
When we are dealing with salmon fisheries we are dealing with something that is a national resource, the exploitation, control and management of which should be at least above party politics. It is already beyond dispute that the situation is critical. No less a figure than the chairman of the ESB, Professor Dillon, has already pointed out that in the rivers overseen by the ESB the situation is critical. In other rivers the situation may well be reaching the point of no return. A feature of animal species is that if stocks go below a certain level, regardless of the fact that there are still members of that species, there are not enough of them to overcome the downward slide. Eventually the whole stock will become exhausted and will have to be replenished by expensive methods. Now is the time to spend the money. If we do not spend the money now it will cost us a great deal more in a couple of years time and our efforts then will be attended by a much slimmer chance of success than would greet them at present.
It has been represented strongly to me that the only way to control the situation is at least to arrange a temporary moratorium on the catching of game fish, particularly salmon. Another possibility is that the enforcement of the existing legislation and of the restrictions which the Minister is now proposing to introduce should be tightened. It is quite possible that existing restrictions are not being enforced as adequately as possible. There are boats landing fish in ports with illegal nets lying heaped on their decks. One guard standing at the end of a pier could probably make a severe dent in illegal netting practices. There are fish being sold in markets and auctions through existing licences that could in no way have been caught by the operators holding those licences alone. They must have been caught somewhere else.
At the very least the Minister should approach his colleague, the Minister for Finance, to ensure that the Revenue makes some attempt at estimating the revenue to the holders of these licences, which may or may not be used to follow illegally caught fish onto the market. The ideal thing might be to have a State-controlled market for game fish in general and for salmon in particular and to control the issue of licences to part-timers in particular. I do not mean the part-timers who are half-farmers and half fishermen and eking out a living on the western seaboard but the part-timers who already have full-time well-paid jobs and can afford to finance expensive boats and equipment to enable them to have an unfair advantage over those for whom fishing is an essential and basic part of their livelihood.
I shall conclude by saying that I hope we are not too late in introducing these restrictions, introducing the legislation which the Minister proposes to bring in. If the legislation goes far enough it will have the wholehearted support of people who have fisheries in general and inland fisheries in particular at heart. It is important to remember that the inland fisheries business is not simply the preserve of the wealthy who in some cases have sole access to privileged parts of certain rivers; it is also a very substantial element in our tourist trade especially in the west and affords genuine enjoyment to many people who could not begin to think of affording the kind of money it costs to put a rod on some of our rivers.
I am highly critical of this Supplementary Estimate from the point of view of job creation. We are talking here about the provision of a measly £10 extra for Fisheries: that is all the Supplementary Estimate amounts to and its only purpose is to allow money to be transferred from one subhead or set of subheads to another.
The Deputy should read it again.
I am reading it perfectly well. It is important to analyse the changes. In fact, what is happening is that under subhead C.3 there is a saving of £195,000 on main fishery harbour works, money which if it had been spent would have directly contributed to the creation of construction jobs in harbours. That money is not being spent on harbours. How is it being spent? It is being used for travelling expenses and I calculate that approximately £150,000 of it is being used directly for administration under subheads B.1, C.4 and F. Most of that money additionally being provided under those subheads will be used for administration and £195,000 which was provided for capital works at harbours has not been spent. That is why we have a Supplementary Estimate—to enable this bookkeeping adjustment to be made. That is the wrong sort of priority. In view of the priority being given to job creation the Minister should have made sure that the moneys provided for harbour works were spent because it was job creation money. The fact that the Minister has to admit here that he has failed to spend 13 per cent of the amount provided for main harbour works in the 1978 Estimate speaks for itself. If that money had been spent it would have directly created jobs. That is a bad situation of which the Minister cannot be proud.
Would the Minister have a close look at the prospects for mussel fisheries? I am particularly interested in this in my constituency. I am interested in the provision of a purification plant for mussels at the Boyne estuary. I hope the Minister and his officials will consider that matter sympathetically.
The Chair wishes to point out that where there is a saving on a subhead, that subhead cannot be debated on a Supplementary Estimate.
How could one debate it without debating the saving?
The ruling has been given by the Chair on about 15 occasions that where a saving on a subhead is mentioned in a Supplementary Estimate that subhead, as such, cannot be discussed.
We can discuss the saving, not the subhead?
We cannot discuss anything about the subhead.
I want to ask the Minister if he would re-consider this matter of the fisheries protection officer. This could go a long way to allay the uneasiness of Irish fishermen at present regarding the operation of overseas trawlers generally. These trawlers come into Irish ports not necessarily to fish but to visit. All that somebody going on board at that stage can find is a solid block of ice. Nobody knows what is aboard. It may be herring; it looks like mackerel but obviously there is no proper supervision of their operations. A fisheries protection officer would allay much of the uneasiness in this regard.
All the money that has been mentioned and more with it should have been spent on main harbour works. A previous speaker pointed out that we still have many fishermen who operate small boats. Most salmon fishermen operate with small boats and many traditional fishermen work from boats of about 18 feet. They need all-weather harbours but they do not have them. We have been told in regard to places like Ballycotton and Youghal it is the job of the Office of Public Works or of somebody else. Money that should have been spent in protecting these small harbours has not been spent. As Deputy Bruton said, this would give employment and protect existing fishing boats. In the storms over the weekend six of these boats were sunk in Ballycotton. There are fishermen's boats at the bottom of the bay because the tides came over the breakwater and swamped the boats. Yet we have a large sum of money unspent here. I appeal to the Minister to spend the money where it should be spent.
Taking the last point first, we are talking here about Howth harbour and no other harbour, where, because it is such a major work and because so many interests had to be consulted—they have all been consulted now and agreement has been reached—there was a certain amount of delay and there has been a transfer of money wholly in relation to Howth harbour expenditure. I mention that to bring an air of reality into the matter because this happens every year in regard to the harbours estimate, both in my Department and in my previous Department of Transport and Power, because of the indeterminate nature of harbour work.
Why was the money not spent somewhere else?
The Deputy thinks one can just trigger off harbour works by pressing a button. It is not like that. They involve highly complex engineering. I am glad that Howth harbour works are now under way; contracts are being placed and the investment is proceeding. As regards the sort of transfers that took place, one that was not referred to here is a very important one in which the Government take a certain pride. After the acquisition under the capital Vote last year of the Galway Fishery we had to provide for the management of it. We shall be reimbursed out of receipts over the next four or five years from the management which has been established but part of the transfer involved in the current Supplementary Estimate involves the management of the recently acquired Galway Fishery.
I am glad to report that it has been an excellent investment in which the State will be reimbursed its capital investment inside five years from not only salmon receipts but also from the more than substantial receipts from eels—an unexpected bonus to the extent that it did arise. I shall have further figures for the House at the end of the year on the total success of the operation. As it was the first commercial fishery acquired by the State since the foundation of the State I am glad to report that progress has been excellent and that I intend to acquire on a regular basis more of these fisheries so that ultimately all the commercial fisheries will be within national ownership. That is where some of the money to which Deputy Bruton referred has been transferred.
I do not want to enter into a full debate today on this matter because we are strictly confined to the matters before us on the Supplementary Estimate but certain matters were raised and emphasis laid on them and so, with the permission of the Chair, I shall deal with them, Deputy Deasy and Deputy Hegarty referred to the need to have fishery protection officers on board boats to ensure that the quotas are enforced within our waters. This has been the subject of very serious debate between the IFO and myself.
The Irish Fishermen's Organisation and myself had a very important meeting on this and a number of other matters yesterday week. I should emphasise again that relations are excellent between us. There are continuing meetings and discussions and a very real understanding between myself, the Irish Fishermen's Organisation and the other fishermen's Organisations and fish processors and export organisations within the State. Therefore one does not mind the bit of shadow boxing that has to go on at every level in politics and in dealing with groups. Very good and genuine relations exist between me, my Department, the Irish Fishermen's Organisation and all the other bodies concerned with Irish fisheries development. This aspect is one we are at present considering. We have set up an ad hoc committee comprised of officers of my Department and the Irish Fishermen's Organisation to discuss ways and means of pushing this forward and having some sort of fishery officer and ancillary force to back up the navy in their protection work.
I would envisage these men being placed on specific boats over a certain size, fishing out specific quotas in certain waters around our coast under fishing plans. I should like to see them incorporated as an essential ingredient of any fishing plans we would make with any other member state within the Community. I mention that in order to emphasise that discussions are going ahead quietly all the time. Of course, good news never makes news but that sort of discussion is continuing on a constructive and responsible basis.
I want to pay a tribute to the Irish Navy for their work over the past few years, in particular last year, which was a difficult one because of the number of closures we introduced. These brought a more complex element into the whole area of fishery protection. The work done by the navy, in co-operation with my Department, ensures particularly that the legislation passed in the House in July last, together with the active presence of the Irish Navy, will constitute a very real deterrent as regards any illegal fishing by any other country within our waters, contrary to arrangements we have reached with those countries, or if they are fishing there illegally without any degree of right at all. Either way, both in regard to other countries in the Community and in regard to Third countries, the presence of the Irish Navy and the sort of penalties we now have will act as a very real deterrent, and have been acting as such for the past six months. While one can never be satisfied or complacent, I am satisfied that by the presence of the Navy, allied to the very real legislation, with real teeth as regards penalties, we have now acted in a substantial way to reduce illegal fishing by other countries, both other Community countries and other Third countries, within our 200-mile limit waters.
I should like to take this opportunity also of thanking the Navy for their work in dealing with our own illegal salmon fishermen on the Shannon. This is our own fault; we cannot blame other nations for this. It developed to an inordinate extent in recent years but suffered a setback last year, again due to the presence of the Navy. The ensuring legislation, which is practically with the printer now, and which I hope to have for Members of the House to look at as part of their Christmas reading, because we hope to have it published next week, will have substantially increased penalties for illegal salmon fishing, increases of the same percentage rate for illegal salmon fishing as we introduced for illegal sea fishing in the legislation passed in July last.
The important aspect of the fishery protection area is that this really would not have been possible were it not for the fact that we got substantial help in the way of direct grant transfer from the EEC, help of the order of £30 million. Approximately £10 million of that has already been paid in the current year, has been paid now in respect of commitments entered into last year and this year. We hope to get another £20 million over the next two years from this source in respect of boats, all of which will be built in Ireland—again this is my colleague's area—some of them equipped with helicopter facilities, helicopter pads, to enable them operate a joint helicopter-naval protection service.
Will the Minister be building fast inshore boats as well?
I have sanctioned one already for the Shannon region; the Limerick Board of Conservators have bought one. There is a proposal under way from the Cork Fisheries Board for the same purpose. When we have the new regional boards properly funded under the new legislation we will have seven regional boards around the coast, under a central fisheries authority, dealing with salmon and inland fish. My immediate target is to have under each of these boards at least one boat for a start to engage in this near water protection and enforcement. This whole area of protection and legislation to back up protection, both in regard to sea fisheries and inland fisheries in the estuaries, has been the big lack in recent years and the reason that wholesale illegal fishing, both by non-nationals and nationals, has become almost a way of life until—and I might say with some justification—the past 12 or 18 months when we got down to really getting a grip on this problem.
Deputy Horgan emphasised the whole area of salmon control and rightly so. Under existing legislation we are introducing salmon regulations which have gone to the media today and will be published tomorrow—we issued them today—dealing with a whole range of controls that will very severely limit commercial salmon fishing and rod fishing next year by cutting down the length of the season, cutting down the size of boat dealing in such commercial fishing, introducing a much longer closed season in respect of salmon fishing and introducing as near a uniform restriction as possible on the size and depth of net. Those regulations, linked with increased penalties and the legislation which will be law next year, should lead to an enforcement regime which will be effective.
Deputy Deasy—although he referred to many areas—was more concerned with the sea fishing side. He raised the question of grant from the EEC towards the cost of boats. These grants will operate from now on on the basis of a 50 per cent contribution from the EEC towards boats under approximately 90 feet. That is the present limit of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara credit terms. In effect, that applies to practically the whole of the present Irish fleet. Of course, 50 per cent is a substantial grant—what the EEC call a grant towards restructuring fishing boats. It was part of the package we negotiated in addition to the grant transfer for fishery protection boats. As Deputy Deasy said, there was some difficulty about its introduction but the air is now clear on that matter. It is now part of an EEC regulation and will be continued year in and year out. It applies only to ourselves and to Italy. Included with that also is a 50 per cent grant towards mariculture, also to ourselves and Italy, on the same basis because there is very strong scientific evidence to bear out the point of view expressed here, that there is substantial hope in developing mariculture in all its forms—mussels development. scallops development—we already have oyster development to a reasonable extent but we can have more of it—and sea salmon. You will never have full replacement in the area of the natural or wild salmon but in the shellfish areas all the experimentation shows that you can farm mussels, scallops and oysters quite effectively. I mention that because a number of proposals in regard to shellfish are coming through now and there is a 50 per cent EEC grant for this development in the under-developed areas.
Deputy Deasy referred to education and training. We intend to spread these facilities around the coast and have them as on-going facilities and not just on the basis of training skippers or fishermen, full stop, but on the basis of maintaining regular contact in the ports all the time so as to have in-service training and courses available all the year round, year in and year out. This sort of continuity has been lacking in the scheme up to now. There was a cut-off point once a skipper or fisherman was qualified. What is needed nowadays in this constantly changing and developing industry, an industry which has become highly technological, is to keep the skippers and the fishermen up with developments. It is on that aspect of education and training that there will be the highest degree of concentration in the future. I have apportioned all that area to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara as they are a State-sponsored body with a more flexible mandate, as it were, and would therefore be the more appropriate body to handle this. There will be further announcements about this in the very near future.
Landings were mentioned. Here I would assure Deputy Deasy that our value landings have improved substantially and so have quantity landings. The total sea fish landings in 1978, in volume terms, came to 43,650 tonnes as against 35,648 tonnes in 1977 and, in value terms, £13,200,000 as against £9 million. Value terms show a 50 per cent increase and quantity terms a 25 per cent increase. There has been a change in the graph in recent years. In the case of herrings, landings in 1978 in value came to £4.4 million as against £1.5 million in 1977, an increase of 200 per cent. The tonnage doubled from 7,000 tonnes to 14,000 tonnes. For the first time ever, and this is the best barometer of all, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara arrears in regard to loans are fully up to date. I mention these few facts to emphasise that things are going very well. If there are differences they are legitimate differences. Everybody concerned is anxious to do even better.
As far as harbours are concerned, we are now seeking funds from the EEC under the Regional Fund for Greencastle and Clogherhead developments. There is no reason why we should not get funds for these.
Is it correct that existing grants are going into central funds?
Yes.
And being distributed?
We are looking here for specific funds for Greencastle and Clogherhead. The applications have been lodged with the EEC and we hope they will be successful.
Will you do the same with all future grants?
I propose to do so. There is another harbour in regard to which we are preparing an application at the moment. I refer to Rossaveal in Galway which will also be put in for consideration on an infrastructural basis to the regional fund. We have got it clear in principle that we can submit such harbour works.
Our time is limited but I am quite certain we will have another occasion for a fruitful and constructive debate on fisheries.
Just one point—there have been representations made about Ballycotton.
I do not have the up-to-date position in regard to Ballycotton but I will find out what the position is and let Deputy Hegarty know.
We have a dangerous sea wall.
