asked the Minister for the Environment his policy to reverse the falling number of completions in recent years in respect of local authority dwellings.
17.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Local Authority Housing.
16.
asked the Minister for the Environment the nature and extent of the reassessment of local authority housing needs and analysis of the approved waiting list of housing authorities as referred to in paragraph 5.11 in the recent Government White Paper, which led to the conclusion that there was a general lessening in the degree of urgency of local authority housing needs, even though there has been little or no falling off in general demand and significant arrears still exist in some areas.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions No. 16 and 17 together.
The general level of activity on the local authority housing programme is determined each year by the Government in conjunction with the provision for this purpose in the Public Capital Programme. The level of activity, as measured by average monthly number of dwellings under construction throughout the year and average monthly employment, was maintained in 1977 and 1978 at a higher level than in 1976. The average monthly number of dwellings in progress was 8,702 in 1977 and is estimated to have been 8,611 in 1978. In 1976 the corresponding figure was 8,195. Average monthly employment was 6,295 in 1977 and an estimated 6,400 in 1978 compared with only 5,634 in 1976. The capital provision being made by the Government in the Public Capital Programme for local authority housing in 1979, combined with a generally more favourable cash position for housing authorities at the end of 1978, should enable building activity in 1979 to continue at about the same level as in 1978.
The reassessment of local authority housing needs and analysis of the approved waiting list of housing authorities referred to in paragraph 5.11 of the Government's White Paper and the conclusion stated in that paragraph were based on (a) the latest detailed assessments of housing needs carried out by housing authorities under section 53 of the Housing Act, 1966; (b) the 1976 report on housing needs by the National Economic and Social Council; (c) annual analyses made by my Department of detailed statistics submitted by housing authorities of conditions and family circumstances of approved applicants on their waiting lists, and (d) special detailed local reviews, discussions and checks by officers of my Department.
There are two separate issues here. First regarding the number of completions of local authority dwellings, how can the Minister relate the information he has given us—unless it has been given in the context of Shakespeare's maxim that "The Devil can cite scripture for his purpose"—with paragraph 5 of the White Paper in which we are informed that local authority housing completions totalled 8,794 in 1975, 7,263 in 1976, and 6,333 in 1977 while the estimation for 1978 was to be of the order of 6,000, a figure which I consider to be totally exaggerated? This shows a clear decline in the numbers. Is there any plan to reverse that decline?
The figure for completions is 6,038. Again, completions can level off. The best guide is the average number in progress.
That is no consolation to people on the housing list.
The average number can be affected by factors such as weather, industrial disputes or material shortages which can occur any year but there is usually a levelling off during a two- or three-year period.
Would the Minister accept that the figures are for a four-year period and that apart from last night's weather conditions there has not been any marked decline in weather conditions in those four years?
The figures for 1977 and 1978 are 6,333 and 6,038 respectively.
Would the Minister accept that the figures have been declining yearly?
The average number in progress and which I consider to be more indicative of what will be achieved during a period of two or three years was 8,611 in 1978 compared with 8,702 in 1977.
One can hardly live in a house that is in the process of construction.
Houses must be in progress at some stage if they are to be completed.
We are talking about statistics for completions.
What is the average time for the commencement of the building of a house to its completion? Would I be correct in saying that in Dublin city the process is a three-year span on the basis that in regard to the figures that are being criticised today the Minister has to refer back over a three-year period?
I have no details of the average time.
It is a separate question.
Is not the answer "about three years"?
Regarding Question No. 17 can the Minister indicate how his Department and the Government differentiate between a degree of urgency for local authority housing on the one hand and the fact that there has not been a falling off in general demand? In other words, how do Fianna Fáil differentiate between the urgent demand and the general demand for housing?
This is purely an argumentative question which is bound to generate disorder.
My reply indicated on what the Government assessment was based.
I am simply asking the Minister, on the basis of what is printed in the White Paper, what is the difference in their terms between the urgency of demand for local authority houses and general demand. Have we reached some new category in this regard, and, if so, would the Minister enlighten the House on what the differentiation means?
I indicated in my reply what the White Paper was based on.
That is not an answer to the question. Is it the position that the Minister for Economic Planning and Development is dominating the Department of the Environment and is this Minister merely a pawn?
The White Paper was a Government document.
I have not received an answer to my question.
(Interruptions.)
Can the Minister say——
I am calling the next question.
My question is non-contentious.
The Chair is not concerned as to whether a question is contentious or otherwise so long as it is in order.
Regarding the extent of local authority housing needs, is there any difference between the specific assessment referred to in paragraph 5 of the White Paper and the traditional supplying of figures by local authorities? Was the assessment the same as in other years?
That assessment was based on the assessments of housing needs as seen by housing authorities in accordance with section 53 of the Housing Act.
Is that not what they do every year?
Is it not a reply to the question? It is what is done every year.
Therefore, there was no special assessment.
Who compiles the White Paper?
The Minister referred to the public capital programme, but can he give us the figures for this year and last year in respect of expenditure for local authority housing?
That is a separate question.
The Minister referred to the amount of money being an indication of increased activity.
If we were to allow questions on everything to which a Minister referred there would be little if any progress.
But the result might be illuminating.
I am calling the next question.
For the Deputy's information, the figure for 1978 was more than £80 million while for 1979 it is £86 million.
That is an increase of less than 7 per cent whereas, as acknowledged by the Central Bank, the cost of new houses has increased by more than 30 per cent. In those circumstances how can the Minister justify his contention that housing is continuing at the same level as in the previous year?
(Interruptions.)
Order.
(Cavan-Monaghan): May I ask one question?
No. I am calling Question No. 18.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Would the Minister agree that because the cost of building houses has increased substantially we need more rather than fewer local authority houses?
I would not agree. There is now a bigger percentage of families of three looking for houses than was the case two or three years ago. The percentage is increasing all the time.
(Cavan-Monaghan): The price of building a new house has gone up by over 33? per cent since the Minister came into power. Therefore it is more difficult for people to build their own houses.
That is a separate question.
Despite what the Deputy says there are more people building private houses now.
(Cavan-Monaghan): There are far more people being pushed off the housing list now.
The housing lists are not getting out of hand.
They are getting longer.
There is less money for building houses.