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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 1979

Vol. 312 No. 6

Gaming and Lotteries Bill, 1979: Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The only substantive provision in the Bill provides that gaming by means of a slot-machine is "unlawful gaming" within the meaning of the Gaming and Lotteries Acts. That is the only object of the Bill, which is being proposed to close off what is, in effect, a loophole in the Acts which arises following a recent Supreme Court decision. The effect of that decision is that the type of slot-machine which delivers prizes direct to the person who operates it successfully, that is the kind which is popularly known as the "one-armed bandit", may be operated without restriction anywhere, with the sole proviso that, in common with all other kinds of gaming, as defined in the Acts, such machines may not be operated in premises licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquor.

The intention of the Oireachtas when the Principal Act, that is the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956, was being amended in 1970, was that such machines should be subject to very strict control and it was very much to my surprise that the Supreme Court decided that they were not subject to such control. Before I go on to explain the sequence of events which led to the Supreme Court decision, I should like to draw attention to the fact that other forms of slot-machines, that is, those that do not deliver when successfully operated a prize direct to the player, are subject to strict controls and have been since 1956. Thus the machines which traditionally have been regarded as being potentially most socially harmful are at present virtually free from controls while those considered less harmful are subject to restrictions. This anomalous situation needs to be rectified and, in my opinion, the way to do so is what is proposed in this Bill, namely, the reimposition of controls on the "one-armed bandit".

The history of the relevant provisions in the Acts is briefly as follows. The 1956 Act outlawed the "one-armed bandit" completely. This was done by section 10. Another section, section 4, defined certain forms of gaming as "unlawful gaming" but other sections of the Act permitted "unlawful gaming" in certain very restricted circumstances. One of the kinds of gaming defined as "unlawful gaming" in section 4 was "gaming by means of any slot-machine not prohibited by section 10". The Acts as I have said, allow "unlawful gaming" in certain circumstances. Thus such gaming may be carried on in an amusement hall or funfair licensed as such under the Acts but subject to certain strict limitations on the stake and the prize money and on the ages of those who may take part.

In 1968 a Supreme Court decision declared the law in regard to slot-machines to be other than all concerned, including the gardaí and amusement caterers, had always thought it to be. The court declared that even those slot-machines which did not deliver prizes direct to the winner were subject to the total prohibition in section 10. The Government decided to introduce legislation to restore the position to what it had been thought to be. The Bill was modified in its passage through the Dáil and, as enacted, is the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1970. It repealed section 10in toto. The position was then thought to be that all slot-machines whose operation came within the definition of gaming in the 1956 Act were subject to the controls on “unlawful gaming” provided in that Act.

The Supreme Court, as I have said, has now declared that that is not the case. The basis for the decision is as follows. A reference to the repealed section 10 of the 1956 Act in section 4 of that Act was not repealed by the 1970 Act and the Court concluded from that fact that section 4 did not apply to those machines which were formerly prohibited by section 10. In consequence, the position now is that their operation does not come within the definition of "unlawful gaming" in section 4. May I say that the Parliamentary Draftsman was fully satisfied in 1970 that there was no need to repeal the reference to the repealed section 10 and he believed that those machines which had been subject to the prohibition in that section would for the future be caught by section 4. That view was not accepted by the Supreme Court, though it was by the High Court Judge who considered the case before it was appealed.

The Bill in section 1 (a) proposes to restore the position to what it was thought to have been up to the recent Supreme Court decision. The proposed deletions from sections 37 and 42 of the 1956 Act, in section 1 (b), of the Bill are purely drafting ones and cannot affect the sense of those sections.

I am very much aware that there are demands from various quarters for farreaching changes in the Gaming and Lotteries Acts. I am considering the various proposals that have been made from time to time. This is a very complex and delicate area, however, and pressures on my Department have not so far permitted the kind of analysis that I would regard as appropriate before any important proposals for change are formulated. In so far as pressure for an easing up on the restrictions on gambling are concerned may I say that my inclination is not to hasten to accept the proposals.

This is purely a measure intended to meet what I consider to be a potentially very harmful development. The unrestricted operation of slot-machines could have very unfortunate consequences, not only in that it would pander in a very positive way to the gambling instinct but because it is a development that could attract the attention of very dubious if not down-right criminal elements.

I have received representations from the Amusement Caterers Association of Ireland asking that legislation on the lines of this Bill be enacted. That is not to say that they, and others, have not both now and in the past advocated further changes. For the reasons I have already mentioned it is not my intention at this stage at any rate to propose any further changes.

I commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome this Bill. I am glad the Minister has taken speedy action to close what was a dangerous loophole. I raised this matter with him by way of parliamentary question on 14 February and it is heartening to see that this dangerous loophole is being sealed off quickly.

In regard to slot machines generally, I do not believe the type of society we would wish to create and develop here should be one where slot machines of the type mentioned in the Bill should play a large part. Everybody is aware of the family problems which have arisen in other countries because of unrestricted gambling. Anybody who has been to America and seen the type of operations carried on in Las Vegas and similar gambling towns will appreciate the enormous profits to be made from this type of operation, but on delving further will also appreciate the very serious effects this has on society in general and on many individuals in particular.

On the overall question of a restriction on slot machines I am in agreement with the Minister. The Supreme Court decision opened floodgates as far as slot machines were concerned. My information is that following the decision in the Flanagan case, hundreds of slot machines have flooded into the country in the intervening period. From that point of view we are facing a situation where very undesirable consequences could ensue. The effect would be that slot machines could be put anywhere other than in a public house. Unless action were taken, we could end up with a situation such as that which obtains in Las Vegas where the craze for slot machines has gone so far that they even have them in hotel lifts.

In regard to this Bill, I am glad to see it being produced quickly, but I should sound a warning note. There are some dangers in rushing legislation through this House; I do not know if it is the Minister's intention to ask for all stages today but from the point of view of agreeing with the principle I would find it very difficult, to resist such a request. From a general point of view, rushed legislation which is not subject to careful and detailed scrutiny can result in anomalous situations being created and can result in consequences which are not foreseen at the time. In regard to this provision, I do not see anything in this Bill which could have that result but when the short Bill was introduced in 1970, I imagine it was put through very quickly and a loophole was subsequently discovered.

If the Minister needs this legislation very quickly I would have to give it to him without abandoning the point that rushed legislation is not the best from the point of view of parliamentary democracy. I appreciate that the Minister has produced a Bill to deal with a specific situation. I am somewhat disappointed at the indications in the Minister's speech that the overall review of the Gaming and Lotteries Acts is not making much progress. Such a review of these Acts is necessary. They contain some ridiculous anomalies and we have had difficulties in regard to charitable raffles and items of that nature. I appreciate that an overall review would take some time and in that situation this very glaring loophole must be closed quickly.

I welcome the Bill and support the Minister in the action he is taking to close this loophole. We do not want the country to be flooded with one-armed bandits and slot machines and accordingly the Minister will have my co-operation in putting this Bill through the House.

In 1970 I welcomed in this House the introduction of the controls then enacted in regard to one-armed bandits. My view at that time was that not only should controls be introduced but if we wanted to have a better kind of society in which we did not encourage people to indulge in that form of gambling we should go the full distance and outlaw one-armed bandits. I have been in the Dáil since 1970 and in travelling around the country I have had no reason to change my mind in regard to this matter. Irrespective of the loss of income which would be suffered by some members of the Amusement Caterers' Association, I believe it would be entirely healthy and desirable not only to reimpose controls but to prohibit one-armed bandits. I do not want to sound unduly moralistic, but I regard them as a temptation, particularly for young people.

We have a large variety of gambling opportunities for people who want to indulge in that partime. Bingo is played everywhere and millions are spend on race tracks and greyhound tracks. People cannot say they are being cut off from an opportunity to gamble. In 1970 I had some very irate letters and telephone calls from members of the Amusement Caterers' Association. I do not believe this House should licence people to print money and that is, in effect, what a slot machine is. There have been some very interesting reports on these machines, including one in Which magazine and another in a serious British newspaper. They have dealt with the cost of the machines, the probability of winning and the kind of society associated with the operation of such machines. One can only come to the conclusion that not only are these machines socially harmful but socially undesirable. We could well do without that kind of rip-off. Tourists from the UK, which has a large population of one-armed bandits, are welcome to come here but we would hope to provide them with a different form of social entertainment.

I welcome the re-imposition of the controls such as they are and I hope that some time in the future some Minister for Justice will take on the vested interests. It is very difficult for any Minister to take on people who have a fair amount of money to throw around and who, at election time in particular, bring pressure to bear on politicians to promise they will introduce amending legislation. That kind of system should be abolished. I welcome the statement by the Minister that it is not his intention to liberalise in any way the existing restrictions, and I am glad the Bill is being brought in expendtiously. I am aware of a number of people, including shopkeepers, who have gone out and bought these machines. I know of one shopkeeper who handed over a machine to someone who said he had been sent to repair it and he never saw the machine again. The speedy enactment of this Bill is necessary and I agree to taking all Stages today. I know that Deputy O'Keeffe has entered some reservations in that regard because in 1970 we thought we had plugged all the loopholes; then the Supreme Court took a decision and we must now plug another loophole.

However, the Bill now appears fairly watertight. I am prepared to agree to all Stages of the Bill today. I do not know if Deputy O'Keeffe agrees with me. I am expressing purely personal views—I am not talking for all the Deputies in my party. I live in a constituency which adjoins an area where many people are employed in the amusement and catering trade. The reservations I have expressed apply possibly to the future rather than to the present situation.

I join with Deputies O'Keeffe and Desmond in welcoming the Bill. I believe that most public representatives have had representations for and against this legislation. Many people are interested in participating in this type of profit-making enterprise and there are a great number against it. I am sorry the Minister has not gone further in the Bill. I appreciate the urgency of amending legislation because I believe one-armed bandits are nothing short of what I would describe as a rip off. The amount of money leaving the pockets of the poor and going to the wealthy through these machines is sizeable.

Many married women who go out to shop on Fridays with their husbands' wages in their purses, because of price increases and other pressures are anxious to increase that money and they try to do it by playing these machines. The result is that they lose most if not all the money in their purses and indeed families have been left starving because of it. I agree that most people are sufficiently sensible to avoid such temptation but there are many weaker people under the impression that they can make a profit.

It is a horrifying sight in grocery shops in Ireland to see one-armed bandits and people putting money into them. Housewives who go to such shops have to pass these machines and many of them succumb. Therefore, I am glad to see any legislation which curtails these activities. If I had my way I would impose much harsher limitations on the scope of this gambling outlet. I agree it would not be right to try to ban these machines altogether because we would then have them operating in the back rooms and other such unlikely places.

I will urge on the Minister a number of remedies. I suggest that there should be a minimum payout of 80 per cent from all these machines. That would still leave a sizeable amount of money in the hands of the operators. I suggest that a notice should be displayed on all such machines to this effect. I suggest that all such machines should be specially designed with this end in view and that manufacturers—I understand these machines are being manufactured in Dublin—would be required to alter the machines to provide for such a minimum payout, that they should contain meters showing the throughput of each machine. It should be a simple process.

The manufacturers should be required to furnish the plans and specifications of all such machines and these documents should be in the hands of the proprietor for examination by Departmental inspectors. I suggest that the Minister should appoint at least one inspector in each customs and excise area in Ireland and that such inspectors would have power to inspect all gaming rooms and to examine the documents attached to these machines to ensure that the prescribed minimum is being paid out from each machine.

There would be few difficulties with the machines. The Minister should consider this fully. At present there is no stipulation about the amount of money to be paid out by these one-armed bandits. Normally it is something between 12.5 and 20 per cent and that is the reason that so many people are anxious to cash in on this. We will have to have a stipulation about the minimum to be paid out and this amount should be displayed on each machines. The Minister should also consider appointing inspectors to look after this aspect.

The stamp duty on a gaming arcade at present is about £16 and the proprietor pays £1 per week for each machine installed there and £100 to the Revenue Commissioners for the licence. If a stipulation is made about the amount to be paid out, a gaming arcade should be able to pay its way and the Minister would not have to be employing additional staff at a total loss. As far as I am aware, the machines being made in Ireland can be adapted, but machines are being imported from Britain and Europe into Ireland which are designed in such a way as to ensure that there is a rip-off, and people are being black-guarded in regard to the money they put into the slots and what they may expect to get back. Some machines are designed to take 50p Pieces, and 50p is far too much to put in at the one time.

This brings me to another point. The Minister should consider slight amendments to some sections in the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956. I refer to section 6 (1) (c) and (e), section 7 (1) (d) and section 14 (b) and (d), each of which deals with cash values in old money. There should be a regulation to stipulate that the maximum amount permitted to be paid into any machine is 10p, and indeed a person should be entitled to two plays for the one 10p. There appears to be no real effort at present to control this situation and when I see 50p slot machines I am alarmed. I have not seen these in the licensed gaming places but I have seen them in unlicensed premises. An effort must be made to control the situation.

For a 1p play the maximum jackpot should be £1; for a 5p play the maximum jackpot should be £5 and for a 10p it should be £10. Some limit on those lines would be a help in curtailing this exploitation. The Minister should consider investigating the cash values under the 1956 Act with a view to making arrangements of the type I have outlined.

I am glad the Minister is taking action on this because the owners of these unlicensed machines are avoiding completely VAT, income tax and any other tax, and the money is flowing out of the country. This legislation will help to plug that loophole. I am glad of the restriction that local authorities have to sanction the designation of towns and areas for gambling purposes. We will try to get the established gaming places to work within the law, and we should have legislation which makes it possible for people to work within the law so that people using these machines will know what they are paying and what they can expect to get back. The regulations are reasonable and most of the local authorities are shying away from allowing additional arcades to be opened up.

I welcome the Bill. I hope that the Minister will consider seriously bringing in the further restrictions that I have outlined. This is a short Bill but it is meeting a big demand. These gaming machines have no social value. Bingo has a social value; at least it represents a night out for people who indulge in it, but there is no social outlet in going into some of these arcades and throwing away money. We must impose as much restriction as we can here.

I thank the Deputies from the Fine Gael and Labour Parties for their general welcome of the Bill. I thank them for the comments they have made on what is in the Bill and for the advice which is accepted in the way in which it was given, for improvements in the overall legislation to deal with gambling. We are all aware that no Government, Minister for Justice, or legislator would be able to stop gambling. Since time immemorial man has been able to bet on two flies going up a wall, and the game of pitch and toss is as old as many of the old instituations of the world. The one thing that as a Government and a Parliament we can do is make gambling less profitable for those who promote it, and I think we are in agreement today as to that.

With regard to the Bill proper and what is in the Bill, I am glad that the need for it is clearly seen by the Oireachtas. On 19 January we had a court case which brought about the situation which we now have, and that situation was the opening of the floodgates for a certain element in our society to let loose slot machines, not in the numbers mentioned by Deputy O'Keeffe, hundreds, but I would say by the thousand in a short period of five or six weeks. I am told by people I meet that it is their view that many thousands of these slot machines have flooded into the country. We are all aware that there has been a series of advertisements in the daily newspapers offering these machines at give-away prices to interested persons, urging that they be installed and using the large profit which can be got from these machines as the motive for buying, renting or leasing such machines.

With regard to the general question of an overall review, which was raised by the Deputies who participated in the debate, I am very conscious that there is need for an overall review of the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956. I believe there is room for modernising it to deal with today's situation. The question of reviewing legislation like this is a very big one. We have learned from our near neighbours in the UK that when they had to tackle a problem similar to this they established a royal commission which reported last year. This commission have produced two huge volumes of reports. We are at present trying to wade our way through them to see what we can learn from their experience.

I assure the Deputies that the review which I believe is necessary—this view is shared by the Deputies in the House who spoke—will be undertaken as quickly as possible. If I had to wait until I dealt with the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956, in the way the House would wish it to be dealt with, before bringing in the amendment to close the loophole as a result of the Supreme Court decision, then I am afraid many thousands more slot machines would be evident throughout the country. That is why, within a few weeks of the Supreme Court decision, I have come into the House with this amendment. I accept Deputy O'Keeffe's very valid point that rushed legislation is not always good legislation. I am very satisfied that the amendment which I am now asking the House to accept is one which will successfully close the loophole.

With regard to a couple of points made by Deputy Enright I am told by people who are operating slot machines since the Supreme Court decision—they know they are not breaking the law because of that decision—that the pay out would not be even up to 20 per cent of the intake. One person told me that he would be more than willing to close his small supermarket if he could have the income from the two one-armed bandits which he has as his profit. This profit, as Deputy Enright said, is not taxable. I also note his suggestion that any new legislation on the examination of the Gaming and Lotteries Act 1956 will have a section in it which will stipulate that the pay out should be 80 per cent. This suggestion has been put to me by people who are operating amusement arcades legitimately, as provided for under the existing legislation. This will have to be considered when an overall review of the legislation is being undertaken.

With regard to the 50p machines mentioned by Deputy Enright these machines are not illegal now but had been illegal before the Supreme Court met on 19 January and decided the issue before them. The maximum stake allowed under the then existing legislation is the old sixpence, that is 2½p. That will also have to be looked at in the course of an overall review. Most Members of the House of all parties were disturbed by the tendency prior to the Supreme Court decision whereby slot machines were finding their way into public houses. The publicans who were foolish enough to believe that this would be allowed saw the light. The Garda Síochána were quite firm in dealing with the matter and I hope they will continue to do so. I am satisfied that the amendment before the House will successfully seal the loophole which is in the legislation as a result of the Supreme Court decision and I recommend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment and passed.
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