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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Mar 1979

Vol. 312 No. 10

Financial Resolutions, 1979. - Financial Resolution No. 8: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Economic Planning and Development.)

Before Question Time I was remarking that it is an easy matter for people to march by way of protest but as Members of this House we have the responsibility of putting forward constructive suggestions regarding the bringing about of a more equitable form of taxation. In this regard I was suggesting that, perhaps, members of the various professions are not contributing their fair share of income tax. In these circumstances we must consider ways of ensuring that this situation is rectified and to this extent I was suggesting a system whereby people availing of the services of these professional people would obtain receipts and that these receipts in turn could be used for purposes of the assessment of income tax by the Revenue Commissioners. In this way we would be devising a system that would benefit the taxpayers generally. I am aware that a system on those lines operates elsewhere.

Regarding the march arranged for Tuesday next we might ask what it is hoped to achieve by this form of protest. Inevitably the people who are hurt most in situations of strike or confrontations are the ordinary citizens. People in Government, in charge of trade unions or of farming organisations must think of the man and woman, the boy and girl and how it affects their lives.

While second and third level education, in principle, are free for all, many parents find it increasingly difficult to keep their children at school. It is a strain on the family income and we must give them some financial help if our young people are to be educated. Parents should be allowed to claim a tax concession on expenditure in this area. In many cases parents with children in university have to pay the cost of keeping their children in flats, digs and so on. I ask the Minister to give urgent attention to introducing tax concessions in this area.

I want to draw attention to another shortcoming in the taxation regulations, one that has been aired many times in the past and is now more relevant than ever. Thousands of workers are obliged to use their own transport to and from work because our public transport service is not as good as the public transport systems in other countries. In Navan the direct rail service was closed down in the early fifties, and now thousands of commuters who would normally use the railway line are obliged to drive to and from Dublin and elsewhere. Because of the heavy traffic between Navan and Dublin I want to ask the Minister for Transport and Tourism to instruct CIE to introduce daily rail services between Navan and Drogheda to link up with the service to Dublin. If it were introduced it would not only mean fewer motorists on the road; it would mean less traffic congestion in Dublin and a cutback in petrol consumption. There are many other towns within commuting distance of Dublin where traffic could be diverted to the railways if a satisfactory service were provided.

One immediately thinks of the brilliant undergound transport system in London. Most commuters use that system and do not have to use their own cars to travel to work. This is relevant especially in view of the Private Member's Motion taken yesterday on the traffic in Dublin city and CIE's rapid rail plan which has received favourable comment and which it is intended to implement one day. Until such transport is available, the Minister for Finance of the day should look at the feasibility of giving tax concession to the people who must use private transport to get to and from their jobs.

I now want to draw attention to the problems many industries are experiencing in getting their employees to work overtime. Many workers are not keen to do overtime because of the high rate of taxation deducted from their wage packets. The present system of taxation tends to kill incentive and reduce productivity. The Minister should alleviate the taxation burden on these people to make overtime more attractive.

I will now venture into an area which is of interest to my constituency, that is, the furnishing industry. The Irish Goods Council have recognised that furniture and carpets are manufactures in which the Irish producers are under great pressure from imports. Most of the major promotions of Irish products by the council have included these two categories. One hundred and seventeen furniture manufacturers and nine carpet manufacturers are participating in the council's Guaranteed Irish scheme. It is the function of the council to convince Irish people that it is in their interests to support Irish industry and that the urgency is greatest where competition from imports is heaviest. This is not to say that the only way to improve the position of Irish industry is to persuade the Irish people to buy Irish. Irish manufacturers must improve their positions and sharpen their competitiveness by engaging more and more in exports.

The position in the domestic furniture market is that it has increased by 150 per cent in value terms in recent years. In 1978, it stood at £51 million, but the bulk of the increase came from imports. While Irish exports have also increased substantially, the need exists to stimulate the industry in order to improve its potential in the home and export markets. In order to exploit the sizeable market opportunities arising at home and abroad, it is essential to concentrate on improved design and marketing and to pay particular attention to the specialised demands of the consumer where necessary.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Fitzsimons on the budget debate.

There is no doubt about the extent of the opportunity for expanded sales which exists in the furniture sector. Annual per capita expenditure on furniture here is £7.29 in the United Kingdom the figure is £15.39. It is much higher in the continental markets, reaching £36 in Germany and over £46 in Denmark. We have a lot of leeway to make up in that area.

Irish participation at the London Furniture Show a few months ago saw the first official Irish representation at a UK furniture exhibition since 1971 and sales in excess of £300,000 were reported. Indications were that attention to quality finish and marketing will enable Irish manufacturers to achieve increased sales in the competitive UK market. We must improve in this field. There has been a slight reduction in the numbers employed in this industry and between 1973 and 1978 the figure fell from 4,000 to 3,500. The Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy should thoroughly investigate this industry, particularly in regard to the amount of imports. It is well to remind the Minister for Finance and the Government that our furniture manufacturers are competing at a disadvantage because VAT on furniture in this country is 20 per cent, while it is only 9 per cent in the UK. Furniture manufacturers and their employees cannot understand why a chair, a table or a bed should be regarded as a luxury.

This is especially true of the people in Navan.

The carpet industry is also important to Navan and other towns. It has an annual turnover of £48 million and current employment stands at about 2,500 people. Approximately 75 per cent of output is exported, mainly to the UK. Industry in the UK had been in recession to 1978 and this had repercussions for Irish industry. There has since been a pick-up in the UK market and this has helped our industry. Prospects for the Irish carpet industry are now better than they have been for many years. This is symptomatic of the progressive and dynamic Government we have enjoyed for almost two years. It is not by accident that when Fianna Fáil are in office the building industry does well and because of that the furniture industry also does well, resulting in more people being employed.

This is a socially-minded and generous budget which the Irish taxpayer will yet appreciate. It is a tremendous stimulus to the creation of a better climate for private enterprise, greater productivity and greater optimism for a brighter future. If we keep the welfare of the people at heart during negotiations between the Government, trade unions and other organisations we will create a brighter 1979.

I have heard Fianna Fáil Deputies making that kind of speech many times during the last 25 years: "Wrap the green flag round me, boys, and vote Fianna Fáil and everything in the country will be marvellous. There will be a great increase in productivity and employment." In other words, it is patriotic in their view to vote for Fianna Fáil. I cast that assertion aside and say there are men of great standing, ability, energy and other qualities on all sides of the House. This is a democratic political assembly elected by the people and that should not suggest that there is not ability or effort or absolute attention to detail on this side of the House also.

During his budget speech the Minister dwelt on the fact that this is a budget of strategy whereby more people will be employed, there will be less inflation, our balance of payments position will improve and so on. I would condemn it as a budget of no strategy. The previous budget contained the strategy of the Fianna Fáil manifesto and tax was removed from cars and rates from houses. To a teacher, civil servant, local government official or an executive in industry living in a semi-detached house and owning a modest car, these measures were worth about £400, depending on the rates payable on the house. We had gone through the oil crisis and had brought the ship of State safely through and that man had to bear the brunt of our difficulties. We tried to be fair to everybody. To him that £400 represented his continental holiday, more carpets for the house or the wiping out of his bank overdraft.

Fianna Fáil did not pay the cost of taking tax off cars or rates from domestic houses. The people have to pay and the chickens are coming home to roost. Fianna Fáil were exceedingly lucky because in the succeeding year, largely due to the work of the Coalition Government, the inflation rate was down to 7 per cent. We had created that situation and it was not affected by Fianna Fáil pump-priming the economy, as they call it. All they did was increase consumption spending and that did not in any way reduce inflation. If anything, it would be disposed to increase inflation slightly. They had the wind in their sails and they had a low inflation rate of 7 per cent. According to the Minister for Finance, the real increase in earnings was 16 per cent, that people were 8 per cent or 9 per cent better off. Whether he is right or wrong I do not know. I merely wish to tell the House that Fianna Fáil were lucky that the inflation rate did not rise spectacularly during their first year in office. Having had an extremely favourable year in 1978 they should have been able to produce a budget of strategy.

We saw how hard-pressed they were for money by the undignified manner in which they rushed to join the EMS. By rushing into the EMS they threw away their bargaining power. When they were offered membership of the EMS they rushed in and left themselves in the position of buying a pig in a poke. The other nations bargained, even the rich French, while we ordered champagne to celebrate our decision. Fianna Fáil rushed in because their profligate budget of the previous year had created a diabolical shortage of money. All Fianna Fáil were talking about was how much they were going to get. They rushed in because they hoped to get £79 million this year. They have a good chance of getting something during this financial year but it will be less than we would have got if we had not thrown away our bargaining power.

I want to talk about jobs in the public sector. I am in favour of employing more teachers, more gardai and more Army personnel to look after our security situation. I am proud of the fact that, as Minister for Defence, I increased the number of Army personnel from 8,700 to more than 15,000. I am sorry to say that this Government have allowed the number to decrease. They should remember that, before a man patrols the streets or guards a Border area, 5,000 must be written off. When each man is given an eight-hour day in a five-day week, one realises how necessary it is for the Garda to have a backup service from the Army. Fianna Fáil have economised on the Army and I believe that that trend will continue.

We are getting only 1,250 teachers and about 3,000 civil servants. The use of modern office methods in the public service would mean a great deal more efficiency. It would also mean that we would have need of fewer civil servants or that we could continue with the same number. In their manifesto Fianna Fáil stated that we must get this, that and the other and they are still prepared to buy these things with the people's money. The budget shows that the Government are still trying to hold on to office by buying their way through.

All the teachers were taken into training under the previous Government.

I am not trying to claim credit for anything. I am trying to show that Fianna Fáil have failed.

I have heard the Minister for Finance make great play of the increases in personal allowances. These increases must be considered in the context of the 7 per cent increase in inflation. Many things which everybody uses are not on the CPI. If a married woman whose husband has a good job goes to work she will have to pay 45p in the £. On a wage of £55 her tax-free allowance will be in the region of £5.75 and her take-home pay will be less than £30. Let us consider the case of a young girl who starts work in an office after doing her leaving certificate examination at a wage of £30 or £40. If she is a reasonable girl she will give her parents money towards her keep. If she lives in a flat she must pay rent. After tax, her take home pay is small and she must find it difficult to manage.

I believe that the next financial political move will be the substitution of a large amount of PAYE tax for indirect taxation. That will happen because people will not take what is being dished out to them. It will be the next move. Fianna Fáil always think of the next election. It used to be said that a statesman thought of the next generation and a politician thought of the next election. In Fianna Fáil's political bible there are three priorities. Fianna Fáil is No. 1.

It used to be the manifesto, according to the Deputy's colleagues.

All right. No. 1 is Fianna Fáil. No. 2 is a sort of photo-finish between God and the Government, but the first thing is Fianna Fáil. Fianna Fáil must get back into office at the next election. That is why they get back: that is their philosophy and that is why they do things that are quite wrong for the country.

Returning to these personal allowances, they are ridiculously low and are pressing extremely hard on a decent section of society who are now rightly turning on the Government. One facet of this which should be exposed as a failure is that this seems to have come up as a confrontation between the farmers and PAYE payers. There are 765,000 PAYE payers in the public and private sectors. I do not know what others there are; there may be a few in some other sectors which I cannot think of, but the budget speech gave that figure. They are paid consumption money or savings. As far as the theory of taxation is concerned, the PAYE payer collects £100 or £120 at the end of the week, takes it home and it is consumed in the support of his wife, his family, his house, himself or whatever it is, and then if he can save money and wishes to do so, he saves. When he saves £5,000 or £10,000, he puts it into a little business and decides that he will do capital expenditure on that business. He then can claim an initial allowance against tax and may perhaps pay no tax for years as he builds up his business because each year he is paying capital expenditure, setting his initial allowances the following year against tax and he pays no tax on that operation.

To the farmer who collects his £100 or £120 that is not entirely consumption or saving money. If he wishes to increase that to, say, £140 the following year or to maintain the standard of his farm he must do capital expenditure. Therefore, when one compares the tax paid by farmers with the tax paid by PAYE payers, as was done ad nauseam by the Minister for Finance in his budget statement, one is being completely politically dishonest. There is no comparison here. The comparison should be between the farmer and the self-employed. If the owner of a little garage makes £5,000 and buys a new lift for raising the cars, a new compressor or any other article, he charges the cost of that against his tax and probably pays no tax.

When the Minister for Finance compares 765,000 unfortunate, crucified people, paying through the nose, with 180,000 farmers he is making a totally false, misleading and deliberately politically dishonest statement. There is no comparison one with the other.

The words "deliberately dishonest" should not be used.

Sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I also deliberately included the word "political". However, if I am on the wrong side of the rule, which I question, I will withdraw the words. We are dealing on the one hand with consumption and saving money and on the other hand we are dealing with investment money. Taking 180,000 farmers as against 765,000 PAYE payers, you then reach the stage of querying how many of those 180,000 farmers are solely farmers. How many of them are doing jobs which make them PAYE payers also? How many of them are on the dole or have been put off the dole? What has that budget done?

I was in my clinic a fortnight ago when a decent man came into me and said that he was farming 15 acres, he had a wife and two children and was drawing £15 dole money. Now he finds his valuation exactly 50p over the new limit and that means that the £15 is gone. He cannot support his wife, rear his two children and farm without that £15. He asked me to contact the county engineer to find out if he could get a job as a quarry-man at a quarry which will be opened in the summer because that is the only kind of work he can do. That is what the budget did to people.

Gave them work?

No. The man is seeking work. I have no word back that he got it.

The Deputy could ask him.

The man was put into the position whereby if he did not get one job out of that set of five or six that might be going in a place half the size of a county then he could not live. That is what the efficiency of the Minister of Health and Social Welfare did for us.

What was this man's valuation?

£15.50p.

If he feels that he is suffering hardship he can always go on factual assessment, and well the Deputy knows that.

Let us continue the peace week effort. Deputy Donegan, without interruption.

He has tried it and he has been refused. Those are the facts in relation to a particular case, and that is what that budget did.

If he has been refused he must be making a considerable sum of money from his farm.

It is not in a very good area. However, I want to proceed. It would be a tragedy for this country if Fianna Fáil were to find that the PAYE payers had taken a dislike to farmers and that the farmers had taken a similar dislike to the PAYE payers. Both have their problems and both need a fair and proper system of taxation. Everybody knows that the farmer must pay his fair share of tax. That is not what the Minister for Finance said nor is it what the Taoiseach said. They have said time and time again that by 1 May they want as much money through another system of taxation as they would have got out of the 2 per cent levy.

I have already said that our disgracefully inept and hurried entry into the EMS showed how badly off we were for money. Now let us think of this equally disgracefully sad and inefficient approach of putting on the 2 per cent levy. They included pigs under this levy. What are the facts in relation to pigs? At present a pig ready for slaughter is worth between £55 and £60. Taking into consideration feeding and the general cost of production, the man who would have that pig for sale—or maybe a hundred pigs—would be very happy with about £1.50 average profit per pig during the year. It would be an excellent profit, and if he could fatten his pigs off in three months he could do almost four turnovers in the year. Therefore, if he had 100 pigs and turned them over four times his profit would be £6 per pig and he would be quite happy with that. If he had 1,000 pigs he would be all right. What is £1.50 worth approximately? The Agricultural Institute would tell the Deputy opposite, if he asked them, that it would be a very satisfactory average profit and 2 per cent would have wiped it out. The pig industry here is very important.

The Government sat for six months on the budget as we all do, week after week, and as I did myself during the four years we were in office. It was unworkable and within days they had to slice £4 million from the £16 million—another example of how inept and inefficient they are. In his opening statement the Minister for Finance used the word "strategy". This budget does not have strategy. It has pandemonium. Now they are hoping for EMS money to carry them over.

I was in the Cotswolds recently and all the capital expenditure on the farms there has been done 40 or 45 years ago. Now they are re-adapting and it is in that direction that their money is being spent. Here, we have still got to clean drains. In the last few months our farmers have begun to see a fair income. What they most need is money put into improvement. And this is the time Fianna Fáil chose to impose the 2 per cent levy. What would the Government have done with the money so realised? Farmers were trying to improve their standards of life but, taking me as an instance, what I would have been able to do for myself, and my family in years to come, would have been completely negatived by the levy. The money I would have had to pay for a new silage unit would not have been there.

In his budget the Minister for Finance, instead of giving us strategy, spoke a lot of ga-ga. For instance, when we were in Government I used the veto in the EEC Commission five times in seven hours. Since Fianna Fáil came back it has not been used once. I will point out once more what they did in the budget as far as agriculture is concerned. They substracted £6 million from the brucellosis eradication scheme, which the farmers will now have to pay. They reduced the lime transport subsidy by £2.3 million, which the farmers now have to pay—three months ago I paid £3.80 per ton and the other day my neighbour was quoted £5.80.

We must also consider the milk and butter subsidies, the removal of which have cost the housewife a lot of money. This was done at a time when the Government refused in the EEC to apply Ireland's veto against importation from New Zealand of £9 million of dairy produce. Why did the Minister for Agriculture not impose the veto? This is another example of how inept they are.

Let us look at the last item on the Estimate for Agriculture. The sum for appropriations-in-aid has been increased by £10 million, still more money to be collected from the farmers to be added to the £6 million which they now must pay towards burcellosis eradication. It is frightening. I will not say a word against the Department of Agriculture, but in last week's Farmers Journal we had a statement that many herds have been left out of calculations in regard to brucellosis eradication.

This budget is not a strategy. It is nothing but a plan to pay for Fianna Fáil's next general election campaign. For instance, reverting to the Agriculture Estimate, the amount for environmental improvement and in respect of dangerous places has been decreased by £1½ million. Then we must look at the limits placed on local authority budgets following the removal of rates on domestic houses. In the first year they were allowed to increase their budget by 11 per cent but that has been reduced to 10 per cent at a time when our main arterial roads are plainly inadequate, incapable of taking the increased number of cars now being used. When they were producing their manifesto, it is apparent that Fianna Fáil never considered the possibility of increased prices for tarmacadam.

Neither did you in 1974.

We based our prices on figures available before the price of oil was increased by 250 per cent.

They have an excuse for everything.

Our roads are a public disgrace.

Because you did not provide a halfpenny for them when you were in office.

There is not a man alive who could have foreseen how roads could have been allowed to deteriorate to present levels. There is sympathy on this side for the PAYE people, and of course part of Fianna Fáil strategy is to leave those people in the tragic situation they now are in until the next election approaches. In the meantime, apparently, the entire economy must stand still.

It is flying.

I hope the Deputy will go out next Tuesday and convince the 100,000 people who will be walking in Dublin——

They are all flying.

This is another example of the irresponsibility on that side. Let us take relief on interest payments. On a sum of £2,000, in the past year there has been an increase of £400 and I suggest this is something the Minister for Finance must deal with in the Finance Bill. I am afraid that in future all budgets will be suspect because when the Minister for Finance stands to read his statement Deputies will wonder which tax will stand and which tax will be removed, like the 2 per cent farmers' levy this year. Of course, that was removed because of its impracticality. This Government have proved themselves incapable of producing a budget.

The Taoiseach made certain statements this year at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis which were denied on Radio Éireann the following Sunday by the Minister for Finance. Anybody who looks at the newspapers will find that I am correct. When I was in Government I remember figures coming down from the Department of Finance which I knew to be wrong. I pointed this out and the moguls in the Department discovered they were wrong and changed them. The same thing happened in regard to the Taoiseach's Ard Fhéis statement: the figures he gave had to be corrected by the Minister for Finance the following Sunday.

We are not all as brilliant as the Deputy.

Figures were given in regard to farm labour as if only one person was employed on a farm instead of possibly two or three. I have the highest regard for civil servants but that error was repeated four years later and the Taoiseach was sent in to make an ass of himself and had to be corrected the following Sunday by the Minister. The situation is so bad in relation to farmers' taxation that one wonders if it is possible to get a budget that cannot be refuted. I have the greatest sympathy for the Taoiseach. This is a disgrace.

That is a disgraceful allegation that the Deputy is making, that civil servants are misleading the Taoiseach with wrong figures. The Deputy should withdraw that or substantiate it.

I have substantiated it.

Sorry, Minister and Deputies, it would be much wiser for Deputies speaking in the House not to attack civil servants in any way. The Minister or the Ministers of State are responsible for their Departments.

The Taoiseach went in with 5.9 per cent and the Minister for Finance corrected that on the Sunday, but it is still wrong.

The Deputy should refer to quotations and statements.

In relation to farmers' taxation, are there any EEC directives, laws or regulations whereby it is illegal to take the 1 per cent that is at the moment substituting for the 2 per cent levy? I, and I am sure everyone else would be anxious for a reply to that question when the Minister for Finance is replying to the debate. I know that there are reams of directives and rules that one could not move in a ten ton truck, but it would be logical to have this reply during the course of this debate.

I hope we will not be divided into opposing cells by Fianna Fáil on the issue of taxes. I hope that those who feel they are being badly treated in this budget will not divide and fight with each other when their job is to try to put the Government right. This Government have a huge majority and obviously if things are not going well they will do what is being being done in England, they will hang on to the very end.

Should we resign?

I do not blame them for their attitude; I would do the same. Let us remember that whatever argument there is in relation to tax is between the people and the Government and not between the different sections of the people.

I did not have privilege of being here for 25 years as had the last speaker. It is amazing how the Deputy has survived. Deputy Donegan is unique in many ways. A lot of his friends hit the dust in 1977 but he showed that he is a very astute politician to have survived the wrath of the electorate in 1977. Of course, Deputy Donegan is not a professor, he is a man of the people, as he has proved on more than one occasion. Many people talked of the Coalition Government as a Government of professors. They dealt effectively with them in June 1977. Many of them have returned to their academic studies to promote their personal interests until another opportunity arises. However, the political parties seemed to have learned their lesson in relation to entrusting the care of their politics to this kind of gentleman. That cannot be said of Deputy Donegan, he has survived to fight another day.

I take issue with Deputy Donegan about his opening remarks when he talked about Fianna Fáil "wrapping the green flag around me, boys, and everything would be all right." We on this side of the House are proud to be wrapped in the green flag of republicanism. We have a wonderful tradition that we are not ashamed of in that regard. In fact, we have been charged with responsibility, since the foundation of the State, for safeguarding the national heritage on more than one occasion. When it comes to true republicanism the Deputy must bend the knee to this side of the House and if that means wrapping the green flag around me, the Deputy can certainly bury me in it.

Does that mean that the Deputy owns that flag?

On the contrary.

Following on that introduction, we will get on to the budget.

It did not play too small a part in the 1977 election when the people were genuinely concerned that if the Coalition were returned to office, apart from the economic disaster that would have befallen, there would also have been a sell out of Irish nationals. Statements were being muttered from the front benches of both Labour and Fine Gael prior to the election which left a lot to be desired.

On a point of order, is this in order?

No, I have asked the Deputy to get on to the budget, the introductory remarks are over with.

I know that Deputy Horgan is a man of culture who understands the national heritage. I do not find fault with him, but some of his colleagues are on record as stating that they would re-write the history of Ireland and would write out patriots like Pádraig Pearse. The Irish people did not want that kind of government and dealt with them accordingly.

It is not true.

The Irish people realised where the true nationalist spirit lay.

Deputy Flynn, we will get back to the budget now, please.

If that means wrapping the green flag round Fianna Fáil, so be it.

We may sue for wrongful dismissal, yet.

People may think there are men of ability on both sides of the House. I accept that. We probably have a little more ability than they have on the other side, but there are men of ability there. They have displayed that ability on more than one occasion. On a few occasions in the recent past they left a lot to be desired so far as leadership is concerned. I will deal with that later.

I am glad the previous speaker accepted the fact—although many people on his front bench would not concur—that 1978 was a favourable year for the Irish people. I am grateful to Deputy Donegan for that little morsel. The Fianna Fáil strategy is to continue to have a favourable effect on the Irish economy. It is important that the Irish people understand Deputy Donegan was speaking with his tongue in his cheek when he suggested Fianna Fáil led the Irish people hastily into the EMS.

That is right.

His leader does not quite agree with that statement. In a recent television programme he was interviewed about a document initiated by the Fine Gael Party and dealing with a possible confederation for the Irish people. He said on two distinct and separate occasions that one of the reasons why our separated brethren in the North might like to look southwards was the dynamism of the Irish economy. Deputy Donegan will have to agree that, during the lean four years when the National Coalition were in office, there was no dynamism in the economy. Therefore, the leader of the Fine Gael Party was referring to the Government which replaced the National Coalition, namely the Fianna Fáil Government, my friends on the front bench.

In effect Deputy FitzGerald was saying the Fianna Fáil Government had done a good job in 1977. Deputy Donegan has already agreed 1978 was a good year. When pressed rather hard on that occasion Deputy Fitzgerald referred to the EMS and the astounding statement emanated from his lips that Ireland has the political courage, the economic courage and the economic dynamism to warrant joining the EMS. He suggested that because the British were tardy in considering joining the EMS, and because of the strength which the Irish economy, was showing the people of the North might further consider joining in a confederation, as if confederation was something new.

I can remember a much greater and much more revered leader expressing views on that matter, the late Uachtarán na hÉireann, Eamon de Valera, the founder of this Party. For so long, all the good ideas have come from our side. Now 20 to 30 years later, people pick up the record and come up with a hotchpotch of what was a genuine idea. They are trying to regain the votes they lost in 1977. It is a waste of time and effort as Deputy Donegan knows.

In 1977 we had a strong economy. In 1978 we had political and economic stability. A continuation of that strategy is reflected in this year's budget. Given a fair chance to work, it augurs well for continued growth in the economy over the next few years. People on the other side of the House talk about the Fianna Fáil bible and suggest that Fianna Fáil interest lies in one direction. Politics is all about staying in power and convincing the people that yours is the right party to lead the country in the future. If that is a slight on Fianna Fáil, so be it. If I were to ask the only Opposition Deputy remaining in the House whether his interest lies mainly in returning to this House, I am sure he would give me an honest reply. I am sure he would say that, if they had their way, they would hive off the boys on their left. At least then we could have a Fianna Fáil Government and a pseudo-socialist opposition. I use the words "pseudo socialist" because I am not too taken by Crombie-clad socialists. You get a lot of that kind of thing in a small country like this. When it came to progressive socialism and socialist policies which could be applied in our situation, Fianna Fáil were always the party to deliver.

I was here this morning when Deputy Barry Desmond was speaking. He has an amazing facility for saying things which might have some substance in them. He made a global statement about Dublin. He said Dublin was choking itself to death. I take it he meant it was very difficult to get from point A to point B without frustration and delay leading to depression and a lack of effort to conserve energy and a whole host of attendant problems. I agree the traffic congestion is intolerable, and something will have to be done about it. There are all kinds of hare-brained schemes such as concreting over the river Liffey, flyovers, electrified railways and so on. There might be another way which has been overlooked. Would it be too farfetched to suggest the time has come to relocate the capital city of Ireland? They used to say: "Go west, young man". Should we look at a location somewhere around Athlone?

Carlow was the capital city of Ireland for a few years.

On that interesting point would Deputy Flynn move the adjournment.

I will develop that point on a suitable occasion.

We will still have traffic problems in Dublin.

Will the Deputy move the adjournment of the debate?

The strategy of the Fianna Fáil Government which started in 1977 and is now continued in the Budget statement has all the ingredients for continued growth and prosperity.

The Deputy will have 45 minutes the next time.

Debate adjourned.
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