asked the Minister for Social Welfare (a) how many officials of his Department are at present mainly engaged in the investigation of possibly unjustifiable claims to benefits administered by his Department; (b) how many such officials were so employed on 1 July 1977; (c) whether he has any data on which the effectiveness attributable to the increase, if any, in the number of such officials can be measured or estimated.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Benefit Claim Investigations.
20.
Excluding medical referees, there are at present 32 officers in my Department who are mainly engaged in the investigation of possible unjustifiable claims to benefits. The corresponding figure on 1 July 1977 was 19.
While the increase in the number of officers may be expected to be reflected in, for example, increased prosecutions, it would be very difficult to quantify the overall results which would include the likely deterrent effect of increased investigation activities.
Does the increase of 13 represent the special unit to which the Minister referred in answering questions here at the beginning of last month? I mean a special unit operating by itself.
There are 32 officers in my Department now engaged in the investigation of possible unjustifiable claims. Of those, 18 are in the special investigation unit.
That is the special unit referred to on 1 March? Has the Minister no impression whatever in his Department as to the efficacy of this increased staff?
I am certain it is of considerable efficacy.
If that efficacy is quantifiable, must it not be quantifiable in terms of an increasing rate of people knocked off or frightened off the register?
I have already dealt with this in a previous question. People go off the register for a variety of different reasons. The fact that a special investigation unit is operating in an area may have a very considerable deterrent effect and people may go off the register. However, the Department cannot possibly identify whether they go off the register because they got jobs, ran out of stamps or any other reason.
When answering the earlier question, did the Minister say it could easily happen that when a unit showed up in a district many people suddenly left the register, presumably for fear of prosecution? Is he not therefore able to quantify roughly—we are not asking how many in dozens or in single figures—how many people left the register on account of the increased investigation by the Department?
I do not think an attempt by me to give such a figure would be of any value to the Deputy.
It would be of value to me.
I said it would not be of any value to the Deputy.
Would the Minister recognise that this question is not intended to disapprove of the operation of investigating bogus claims, quite the contrary? But I am trying to elicit from him some figure, even a rough one, which would enable us to say to what extent a reduction in the unemployment register represents increased employment and to what extent it simply represents the chasing off of bogus claims.
The Minister said he is unable to quantify——
Would the Minister not agree that it is a curious thing that there should be an extra 14 persons employed, presumably fairly senior officials, and he is not able to say to what extent their extra employment has resulted in disqualifications?
The Deputy should understand what the position is. First, there is the deterrent effect. Second, the existence of this special investigations unit has been widely publicised and this may have had the effect of preventing people making claims who would otherwise have made them. There is no way we can quantify——
What I want is the Minister's estimate, in rough figures, of that effect.
In order to satisfy the Deputy's neurotic passion for figures I shall see if I can get some quantifiable facts.
Will the Minister withdraw the circular demanding that people provide evidence——
Yes. I have indicated that that practice is not to be pursued.
Will it be any part of the unit's duties to investigate the widespread failure of employers to stamp insurance cards?
That is a very important part of the Department's work and I think we are very successful in our efforts in that regard.
The record is appalling because people do it again and again and get away with it. Something should be done to prevent it.
The Deputy knows that the introduction of the new scheme from 6 April will have a very beneficial effect in that regard.
They do not stamp cards and they do not pay their PAYE either.
There will be no cards for them to stamp.
It does not make any difference——
I think that will improve things considerably.