asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs to indicate if he has received representations from Irish voluntary organisations in relation to the role of the ESB in the Philippines and, if so, if he will make a statement on the matter.
12.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - ESB Involvement in Philippines.
11.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if a formal request has been received from the ESB for guidance in relation to their involvement in the Philippines and to indicate the guidance his Government have given directly to the ESB in this regard.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take questions Nos. 11 and 12 together.
The Government have not received a formal request for guidance, nor did we give guidance concerning a proposal by the ESB to undertake consultancy work in relation to the management and internal structure of the Philippines National Power Corporation, under the aegis of the World Bank, since this matter arose before this Government took office.
I have received representations from voluntary agencies in regard to consultancy work being undertaken by the ESB in the Philippines at the invitation of the World Bank. In this connection, I refer the Deputy to the reply given by the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy on 13 June 1978 to a question on this subject.
I appreciate that the agency in question does not directly fall under the Minister's departmental responsibility, but has any kind of guidance been offered to the ESB in relation to this vexed matter by the Department of Foreign Affairs under his ministerial stewardship, as distinct from a response to any formal request?
As I have said, the decision was taken during a time when I had no responsibility. Secondly, where occasions arise in respect of United Nations sanctions or otherwise we convey the Government's policy position through the appropriate Department. I am glad to note that the semi-State organisations concerned have always taken this into account. That has not arisen in this case.
Is there any broad Government policy in regard to economic dealings with countries where there is a clear denial of human rights?
That might arise more on the next question. As far as the human rights element is concerned, most Deputies will be aware that in the course of the renegotiations of the Lomé Convention there has been a tendency on the part of the EEC countries to impose conditions for aid related to human rights. That tendency has been very firmly resisted by the APC countries themselves. We have to apply the same criteria in relation to Africa as we would to the Philippines or elsewhere. We have to be consistent.
Would the Minister confirm that the charter of the World Bank prevents the World Bank from taking political matters into consideration when they are granting financial aid to the poorest of the poor whose economic and social circumstances are so deplorable that they have not even the ability to assess what their political situation is?
I accept that that is the role and function of the World Bank and that they are guided by their charter. I accept also that the activities of our semi-State organisations under the aegis of the World Bank are aimed at alleviating the problems to which the Deputy referred.
Surely the Minister——
We are getting into argument.
I have one point.
I will permit the Deputy to ask one question quickly without preamble.
Will the Minister accept that where it is clear that the aid in question is not reaching the poor in these countries but may be supporting corrupt and dictatorial regimes, this policy approach should be reconsidered?
That does not happen.
The Deputy has suggested that this is happening in the case of the Philippines.
It seems.
That is another matter.
13.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs the proposals, if any, to establish guidelines for semi-State organisations operating commercially overseas in order that such commercial activities would be deemed to be in accordance with the Government's foreign policy.
My Department advise semi-State bodies as appropriate in relation to their activities in developing countries. Where considerations bearing on Ireland's international obligations, such as the imposition of sanctions by the United Nations Security Council, exist, these are brought to the attention of semi-State agencies.
The Deputy will be aware that semi-State bodies vary widely in their constitution, character and activities. Many are companies whose boards of management have varying degrees of autonomy in regard to their operations.
The Deputy will also appreciate that the development needs of other countries may seem to them to impose different priorities at different stages of their development. Therefore, in our endeavours to promote human rights and to make progress towards a common standard we must show patience and understanding of the situation of the developing countries and not seek to impose our views on them. The Deputy will be aware of my public statements in this context in connection with the renegotiation of the Lomé Convention and of the sensitivities of the developing countries on this issue. Accordingly, it would in my view be difficult to formulate guidelines which would be applicable to all the activities of semi-State bodies, and in all the circumstances in which they operate, in developing countries.
I am grateful for the Minister's reply, but would I be right in thinking that in effect the answer to my question is "No"; that for other than a country that is subject to a UN sanction the Government do not propose now or in the future to take out any form of guidelines for the semi-State sector operating commercially in the rest of the world? Is that a fair interpretation of the Minister's reply?
The Government of which I am a member are following on principles established by our predecessors in other Governments, so there is no change there. I said it would be difficult. If it appears, having regard to the limited sort of knowledge that we would have about the whole range of developing countries, that we could make subjective judgments which would be helpful guidelines, we could consider it. The Deputy would do well to consider, before he makes a firm issue of this, the fact that if we are going to put up guidelines related in any way to human rights we will have to apply those guidelines consistently even against the opposition of, for instance, the APC countries.
Is it a fact that on a number of occasions informal requests—of an imprecise nature because of the definition of the word "informal"—have been made by some semi-State companies with regard to certain activities? Have some of these companies, including the national airline, sought some kind of clarification about their role overseas? Would the Minister agree that some indication vis-à-vis, for example, the participation of Aer Lingus in Iran would be useful from a Government to which the Minister——
Aer Lingus and other semi-State organisations are involved through DEVCO with our development co-operation programme. Any queries or requests they would have would have to be raised at that level. Certainly they have not sought any formal guidelines from me. Secondly, I might mention to the Deputy that it is possible that the new advisory development council might want to consider this matter where DEVCO will also be represented. If so, I will listen to their views.
Does the Minister therefore consider that semi-State companies, owned by the people of this country, operating commercially abroad can be considered to be amoral and apolitical in the field——
I said no such thing.
Well the Minister's lack of action——
The role and activities of our semi-State companies abroad in relation to development co-operation has been something about which we can feel very proud. Any other implication is very damaging to what they are doing in the interests of the developing countries where they operate.
Arising out of the Minister's reply——
Question No. 14.
The Minister made a suggestion——
Order. Question No. 14.
The Minister made a suggestion——
I have called Question No. 14.