It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 1, 8 (Resumed), 5, 6 and 9, in 9 Votes 48 and 49.
At the close of business today the Dáil will adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 12 June 1979.
Order of Business.
I was assured by the Whips last night that No. 8 would not be taken until next Tuesday week.
We will meet that when we come to it.
On the Order of Business, does the Taoiseach think it proper that this House should adjourn and not meet next week in view of the very serious economic crisis we are facing?
The Deputy's party have not been here for a month.
The Chair has no control over decisions about when the House should adjourn.
Surely it is appropriate to the Order of Business if the Taoiseach, without agreement, gets up and announces that the Dáil will not sit next week when we have an unprecedented situation of economic and social chaos throughout the country.
The Chair understands that this matter was discussed by the Whips.
The Chair, unfortunately, misunderstands the matter. There has been no agreement by this party that we would not sit next week.
The Deputy is free to oppose it if he wishes. Next Monday is a Bank Holiday and it is not usual to sit on the day after a Bank Holiday. We usually sit on the following Wednesday at 2.30 p.m. until 8.30 p.m. and we would not sit on the day of the elections. I thought it quite appropriate to put forward this suggestion and, if the Deputy wishes to oppose it, he can do so now.
We do oppose it. While it may have been the practice that we would not sit on normal sitting days during a Bank Holiday week we can hardly regard the present state of the Irish economy as being normal circumstances.
(Interruptions.)
Surely on one occasion the interests of Ireland should come before the interests of Fianna Fáil.
Am I right in thinking that Standing Orders provide for the Dáil to sit on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays and that there is no such thing as a motion before the House that the Dáil shall not sit next week on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday.
Deputy Kelly knows as well as the Chair that the Government in effect decide when the House should sit.
The Government have decided without the agreement of this party.
Be realistic.
Do the Deputies wish me to put the motion?
No, just one moment.
The Chair has put the motion. Let the Deputies opposite object.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order. If there is a motion before the House, has that motion conformed with the rules contained in Standing Orders relating to motions?
Yes.
What notice was given of this motion? Was notice of this motion given in writing?
That is not necessary. I am putting the question that the House will adjourn until 2.30 p.m.——
No, Sir. On a point of order.
On a point of order, has a motion of this nature been circulated? I have not received a copy.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please.
Standing Orders provide that we will sit here next Tuesday unless the House otherwise resolves. That can only happen on foot of a motion and there is no motion before the House, as the Taoiseach knows.
Deputies
Votáil.
The thin nature of the benches opposite indicates exactly why the Deputies opposite are opposing this suggestion or motion.
It is not a motion and the Taoiseach knows that it is not.
The parties opposite want to tie our Deputies here in Leinster House while they are canvassing. That will not happen.
(Interruptions.)
Was notice given of this motion in accordance with Standing Orders?
(Interruptions.)
Will the Chair be allowed to talk? Standing Orders provide that the House sit on certain days unless the Dáil otherwise decides. The question before the House now is whether we sit on next Tuesday. It is for the Dáil to decide whether we sit or not. I am putting the question.
That question can only arise on a motion and there is no motion before the House.
In the nation's interest let them carry on.
(Interruptions.)
If the Dáil wishes to decide the matter it must be done by a motion before the House.
There is no motion before the House.
If the decision not to sit is being opposed the Chair must put it to the House.
On a point of order.
Standing Orders provide for the House to sit next Tuesday.
It does no such thing and Deputy Kelly is in a position to know. I would not mind if some of the younger Deputies were making such a fuss.
On a point of order.
Order, please.
When was notice given of this motion which the Chair says is before the House?
Is it not the Government who order the business of the House and determine when the House will sit?
Yes.
They have done so, without agreement.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order.
Deputies
Votáil.
On a point of order, I want to get this straight, please. Standing Orders——
(Interruptions.)
Am I not right in saying, on a point of order, that Standing Orders provide that the House shall sit every week on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday? If Standing Orders are to be departed from—which of course they frequently are—it must be on the ground of the decision of the House which in turn requires a motion, which in turn requires that Standing Orders be complied with.
The Deputy is quite wrong in saying that Standing Orders provide that the House must sit. Standing Orders explicitly state that the House sits on certain dates unless the Dáil otherwise orders or decides. There is no question of "shall" or "must". The Deputy is only holding up the time of the House making that case.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, if that is so, would it be in order then for the Government on a Wednesday to avoid a sitting on the following morning, if it did not suit them, by a motion without notice?
Yes.
I do not believe that is so, Sir. It could not be so, that the Government can simply put the Dáil into abeyance at its own whim. That could not be right. It must require a motion or notice.
(Interruptions.)
The party opposite should let their leader speak.
Deputy P. Barry rose.
(Interruptions.)
Question put.
I think the motion is carried.
Deputies
Vótáil.
I think the motion has been steamrolled.
May I raise something on the Order of Business? This is a disgraceful performance by the party opposite. Deputy Collins, the Minister for Justice, told us last night that whether or not we wanted it, he would——
We will be taking that in a moment.
(Interruptions.)
I am putting the question: "That the Dáil at its rising today adjourns until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 12 June 1979."
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 47; Níl, 17.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Kit.
- Allen, Lorcan.
- Andrews, Niall.
- Barrett, Sylvester.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, Seán.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Callanan, John.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Colley, George.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Cowen, Bernard.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Farrell, Joe.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Filgate, Eddie.
- Fitzgerald, Gene.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin South-Central).
- Gallagher, Dennis.
- Gibbons, Jim.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kenneally, William.
- Killeen, Tim.
- Lalor, Patrick J.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lemass, Eileen.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leonard, Tom.
- Lynch, Jack.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Moore, Seán.
- Murphy, Ciarán P.
- O'Donoghue, Martin.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael J.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Barry, Peter.
- Barry, Richard.
- Belton, Luke.
- Bruton, John.
- Burke, Joan.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Deasy, Martin A.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Horgan, John.
- Kelly, John.
- Mannion, John M.
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- Quinn, Ruairi.
- Ryan, John J.
- Ryan, Richie.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies P. Lalor and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies F. O'Brien and B. Desmond.
Question declared carried.
The Dáil, at its rising today, will adjourn until Tuesday, 12 June 1979.
I would be grateful if you gave me a few minutes to make a point of order arising not just from the occasion of the coming week's lack of business but on the issue of principle which has developed here. Standing Orders provide in relation to sittings in Order No. 20 (1):
Unless it shall otherwise resolve, the Dáil shall meet every Tuesday and Wednesday ....
The rest of the paragraph does not matter. Resolutions are dealt with in Standing Order 87 (1) which states:
Any matter for decision by the Dáil shall be brought before it by motion for a simple Resolution or Order, or by the initiation of a Bill.
Motions are dealt with in Standing Order No. 28 which states:
All motions to be put on the Order Paper for any day, shall be in writing signed by a member and shall reach the Clerk not later than 11 a.m. on the fourth preceding day.
There is a motion without notice. One features in Order No. 22 which states:
A motion that a sitting be suspended for a period may at any time be made, by permission of the Ceann Comhairle and without notice.
There is nothing about the interruption of the Dáil weekly cycle by a motion without notice. While I am a much shorter time here than a lot of Deputies, my impression is that when the House rises for a recess the form which an adjournment frequently takes is: "That this House on its rising shall adjourn until,"—for instance—"17 February". That is a resolution of the Dáil which effectively suspends this Standing Order. A motion of this kind has not been put down.
The Deputy is taking up a lot of time on a matter that is obvious to everyone.
This is a matter of great importance.
This is a long-standing practice of the House and it is covered even in the rulings of the Chair, one of which I will quote for the Deputy. It has been used on many occasions when motions are taken without any notice. We have had the Second Readings of Bills opposed, which cannot be anticipated until the matter comes before the House. Then it is the right of the Opposition to oppose, if they wish, and in such case it must be decided by a motion.
May I put this point? When the House rises for a recess, as a general rule, in spite of whatever pretence may go on on either side, all Deputies are glad to get away, so that recess does not encounter any opposition. The Government have absolutely no right to assume that, if they call off business for a week in order to allow them to get their own vote out, they will not encounter opposition. They should, therefore, follow a Standing Order, put a proper motion down and have it properly debated. Otherwise they are riding roughshod over Standing Orders. I believe they have done that this morning.
(Interruptions.)
The Chair, at this stage, only wishes to point out that this has been a long-standing practice of the House and that there is nothing new whatever. The House must decide all matters. It would be depriving an Opposition of its rights if they could not oppose any matter coming before the House with or without notice.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
Suppose the Government on a Wednesday decided it did not suit them—for their own political reasons, which they might very well have—to sit the following morning, would it be in order for them to say without notice: "It is intended that the House on rising today will not meet again until next week"?
I hope the Chair is not concerned with the reasons. If the Government at any time decide not to sit, just as we have done now, they may so decide.
I will remember that, please God, when I am sitting on the far side of the House.
(Interruptions.)