Protection of Young Persons (Employment) (Section 4) Order, 1979: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and at the Department of Justice (Mr. D. Andrews)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following Order in draft:

Protection of Young Persons (Employment) (Section 4) Order, 1979,

a copy of which Order in draft was laid before Dáil Éireann on 7 June 1979.

I am moving this motion on behalf of the Minister for Labour who is attending a conference in Geneva. The motion now introduced, seeks the approval of Dáil Éireann for a draft Order to continue in force for a further period of 12 months from 5 July 1979 subsection (3) of section 4 of the Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Act, 1977. In accordance with the Act, this subsection will expire on 5 July 1979 unless the draft order is made with the approval of both Houses. A similar motion was approved by the Seanad on 13 June. The power to make the order is conferred on the Minister for Labour by subsection (5) of section 4.

The employment of children under school leaving age, which is at present 15 years, is generally restricted under section 4. Sections (2), (3) and (4) of section 4 permit children between 14 and 15 years of age to be employed in light nonindustrial work for limited hours provided that the work is not harmful to their health or normal development or their capacity to benefit from schooling. The employment of children during school years is dealt with in subsection (3) and during school holidays in subsection (4). Subsection (3) which is, by far, the more restrictive allows a maximum of two hours work on a week day, four hours on Saturdays and Sundays and 14 hours a week. We all have an obligation to ensure that young people are given every opportunity to grow and develop and to benefit fully from their schooling. It is the Minister's belief that the limited access to employment allowed to young people under 15 years of age by subsection (3) of section 4 of this Act should not hinder their development.

The Act imposes extensive duties on employers in regard to the employment of young people, including those between 14 and 15 years of age. Before employing the young person, an employer should require the production of his birth certificate or other satisfactory evidence of age. The written permission of parents or guardian should also be obtained. An employer should maintain a register or other satisfactory record showing in regard to young persons the name, date of birth, times of starting and finishing work each day, the rate of wages paid and the total amount of wages paid. The employer is also required to display an approved abstract of the Act at the principal entrances to the place of employment. I should also mention that a parent or guardian of a child who aids or abets an employer who contravenes section 4 of the Act is guilty of an offence.

Inspections under the Act are carried out by the inspectors of my Department and the Minister is satisfied that in general the enforcement of the Act is proceeding satisfactorily. In the initial stage of the operation of the Act the approach has been one of advice, publicity and exhortation to employers to secure compliance with the Act, but more recently a number of prosecutions have been undertaken. I should mention that most employers co-operate with the officials of my Department and there is no evidence of any widespread exploitation of young people in regard to section 4 or any other provisions of the Act.

The Minister and I understand, nevertheless, the viewpoint of those who maintain that there should be a total ban on the employment of children under 15 years of age during school term and accept that their concern is for the health, education and moral welfare of such young people. However, the withdrawal of the right to engage in limited employment during school-term laid down in the Act would be contrary to the wishes of many parents who consider that a limited period of work outside school hours can be useful experience for young people in the process of adapting to employment and on deciding on careers. The Minister's view, and that view is supported by experience of administering the Act to date, is that the balance of the argument is in favour of continuing a provision for strictly limited work during school term by 14- to 15-year-olds. It is the Minister's intention during the coming year to review this legislation and he will at that stage consult with all the interests involved.

His attention has also been drawn to a possible drafting defect in section 4. He has been advised that the lapse of subsection 4 (3) would not, in fact, result in the prohibition of employment of children under 15, during school term, as was apparently originally intended, but would allow such employment in work which fulfils the conditions set out in subsection (2) but without any definite restrictions as to hours. This makes it all the more necessary to ensure that subsection 4 (3) remains in force.

I ask the Dáil, therefore on behalf of the Minister for Labour to approve the making of an order to continue in force for a further 12 months from 5 July 1979, subsection 4 (3) of the Protection of Young Persons (Employment), Act, 1977.

Mr. F. O'Brien

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion. Indeed I welcome anything for the protection of young people and the avoidance of their exploitation. But having said that, we should be presented with something more positive than a Minister coming into the House seeking the extension of the provisions of an Act.

The whole question of young people should be examined and some sort of overall charter drawn up. Because there are so many areas now in which young people can and are being exploited it is not sufficient for a Minister to come into this House from time to time seeking a further 12 months extension of the provisions of an Act. That is not what is needed in this area.

While supporting the extension of the provisions of the 1977 Act one thing that strikes me about this is that the whole area of education must enter into the picture as well. When I said a positive charter should be drawn up I was bearing in mind that we had extended the school-leaving age to 15 and we have extended the age at which people can engage in gainful employment. But I feel aggrieved that we have not geared our educational structure to deal with this very important point. For example, let us consider the centre city areas I represent where there are a lot of schools, national schools particularly, where children finish their education possibly at 13 or 14 and are then literally hanging around for a year. One may say that there are vocational schools, this, that and the other, but that is not sufficient, particularly in inner city areas where there is the capacity within our schools to provide such children with further education, giving them something to work toward and to spark off their intellect. What happens? These children go into school and spend their time watching the clock until they are 15 years of age, when they can start to work. I was a member of a school attendance committee which found that such children were caught regularly at work at the age of 14, when they were told: "You must go back to school." One knew in one's heart of hearts that sending them back to school would cause problems. I know I may be extending the scope of this discussion somewhat——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No, I am prepared to allow the Deputy so long as he adheres closely to the subject matter.

Mr. F. O'Brien

It is important that we investigate the root of the problem. When these children are forced back to school they cause problems in the classroom because generally they are bored; perhaps they have been in that class two years already and are utterly bored. Of course the teachers' hands are tied. The Department have laid down the curriculum to which the schools must adhere and, if they do not, they will be in trouble.

Raising the school-leaving age is merely paying lip service to the problem. Mind you, we are all fairly good at paying lip service to these types of problems. But this is a problem that could be tackled quite easily and not to any great cost. In the more affluent areas of the city, generally speaking parents have plotted what their children will do, where they will go, into what stream they will go, whether it be vocational education or whatever. But the areas about which I am concerned and those generally we are endeavouring to protect are where the people are exploited, paid low wages. Perhaps because of their social background they can be easily exploited. We have a pressing duty to examine their problem and deal with it. It is as simple as re-structuring the primary/ secondary educational system up to inter-certificate or group certificate level; making it a new level, so that when children reach the age of 14 or 15 there is some sort of maintenance grant provided enabling them to remain at school. Very often they must go to work to support the family. Certainly in a number of schools in my area the unemployment rate among the parents of pupils is in excess of 56 per cent. Therefore, one can well understand the pressures on such parents to take their children out of school and put them in employment, even at the age of 13 or 14. That is why I am in favour of the extension of these provisions, but I am not in favour of the Minister coming along next year seeking a further extension because that would merely constitute living with the same situation none of us wants.

I would ask the Minister to refer this to the Department of Education—and I think this would be a matter for them— for consideration. Even if it takes a number of years to carry out the re-structuring I have suggested, at least let there be a positive commitment to the training of young people, training them in areas of this city where they are in need of special incentives.

We should consider having some type of allowance for children to encourage them to stay at school. We should pay a supplementary welfare benefit to parents for children to encourage them to keep their children at school. Because of their backgrounds the minds of many of these children are not opened early, but when they reach the age of 15 or 16, if they are still at school, a new vista of education opens up to them and they grow hungry for education and they wish to get it to get on in life. We should consider this aspect very carefully. In Dublin today large numbers of deprived young people are turning to vandalism, not through their own fault but because of their circumstances and the environment in which they are living. Money spent on education is never wasted and if we have to, we should divert money from other areas into education. The money spent over the years on education in deprived areas as compared with the money spent in other areas is very small and that shows that we have our priorities wrong. The rich and articulate have the money and the political muscle and are prepared to use it in order to be educated.

I hope that in future we will not have to make these ad hoc 12-month orders to protect people who allow themselves to be exploited because they have not been educated and because of the environment in which they are living. I hope they will be educated to see the prospects before them and to grasp them so that they will not need protection. I agree that this type of thing should be relaxed during the summer holidays so that young people can earn pocket money or money to buy school books and dress themselves. This would help them to adopt an independent approach at an early stage, but this should only happen in the summer.

It is important to get to the source of the problem, the reasons why this type of legislation must be introduced. Many young people want to get out of school and that is a sad reflection on the type of education we offer. If education is imparted properly young people will respond, because in general they hunger and thirst for knowledge. However it is sad to see this desire for knowledge stifled because the curriculum of the Department of Education is not flexible enough. People in deprived areas need a different type of education. We must consider the type of training and education they will need to fit them for life. It is not desirable for young people to constantly see unemployment in the home and not experience the disciplines of a working life where older members of the family are regularly going to and from work. Being out of touch with this type of discipline has a disastrous effect on the lives of young people.

Many people have improved their living standards but the people we are trying to protect, the 14- and 15-year-old students, have not got an improvement. They are still the victims of society in a lot of ways. Primary education was first given in order to teach people the three Rs, but now that is not enough. We must tackle this problem intelligently and quickly by diverting money from other areas if necessary into deprived areas because in the other areas parents are capable of paying for education. If we do that the young people we are trying to protect here will not need to be protected because they will be equipped to deal with life and to protect themselves.

A lot more could be said about exploitation. It is important that in this type of legislation we put forward positive proposals to end discrimination and exploitation.

Mr. Quinn

We are all undoubtedly in favour of extending this order. There is no question of this order not being approved by the House. However, we have an opportunity here, as did Deputy O'Brien, to raise the question of the relationship of education in certain parts of the country to the problems related to young people leaving school and trying to get jobs before the legal age. What the Minister for Labour and the officials from the Department of Labour could usefully do before the end of the International Year of the Child is to take the essence of the contributions of the Fine Gael Deputies away and then come back and talk to us in real terms about a legislative programme that would take account of all categories in dealing with the last two to three years of primary education in certain areas of the community whether it is an urban area or an isolated rural district where there are similar problems of poverty and isolation.

In a community such as Deputy Fergus O'Brien represents in Dublin so vigorously, for historical reasons there are in-built and hardening structural problems of unemployment which have produced a profile of 56 per cent unemployed. This will have a disastrous effect on young people striving to grow up in that area, and an even more drastic effect on young people trying to get out of it. In many respects it is a more effective prison system than anything the Department of Justice could devise, because a young person trying to escape from that kind of an environment finds it even more difficult than someone trying to get out of Portlaoise or Mountjoy.

We agree to the Minister's request to extend this order for another 12 months, but in so doing we ask him please to recognise that the law as it stands and the relationship of the protection of young people with employment and the possibility for exploitation that exists cannot be looked at in isolation from the primary school curriculum as it operates in certain parts of the community, whether it be in a city or in rural Ireland. In order to give effect to this legislation the objectives, which most Members of this House would share, of integration of work experience, of being educated to work and of actually working as a young person for the limited hours we are talking about, must be tackled seriously by the Government.

I should like to see children who work part-time in, say, Deputy O'Brien's constituency, being able to come into the schools the following week to discuss their experiences and subsequently to learn something from discussions with the teachers through a properly designed curriculum—such matters as the role of trade unions, the way PAYE operates, why the social welfare system is structured the way it is and the whole question of relationships within industry. Deputy Andrews, in opposition, had the social welfare brief for a time and he is aware of the problems.

I do not wish to prolong the debate but I emphasise that in granting our approval to this extension we are serving formal notice on the Government to move positively to close the gaps that now exist between the law as it stands, the intentions of the House and the reality on the ground.

Mrs. Lemass

We all know the phrase "The devil finds work for idle hands to do". This motion will at least help young people to find something constructive to do during school holidays. I know many parents who are pleased if their young children have some constructive work to do during the summer, and I am glad the order is here to allow this to continue. Young people must have an identity, a feeling that they are capable of doing something for themselves, that they are capable of earning even small wages.

When children come to 14 or 15 years of age it is a great encouragement to them to be able to earn some pocket money. I am happy to say that there are very few employers who exploit young people of that age, though there may be some. Many employers go out of their way during the summer to make employment for young people, even if only for a couple of hours per week. It develops a sense of responsibility in young people to realise that they can put their time to good use and return home tired in the evening instead of hanging around the house all day watching television. Of course I would confine this to holiday time because, particularly at examination periods, young people undergo severe physical and emotional stresses during school terms. Therefore it would be bad for them if they were pushed out to work by parents after school. The law that ensures this will not happen is very important.

I suggest that communities would set up bureaux in their respective areas to try to find work for young people who could go to such centres and say the type of work they would like to do, centres which would have lists of people interested in employing young people during the summer. There are people who devote their time to developing projects during the summer to keep young people busy and happy. Apart from being essential, these projects are becoming more and more popular in local communities. Young people are organised in groups and brought on walks in parks and woodlands where they learn all about the trees and the flowers. The important thing is that children will be occupied during leisure time. They are the most vulnerable part of our society and it is up to us to ensure they are given the care and protection they need, particularly in this year of the child.

Mr. Moore

Like Deputy Lemass, I am pleased that the Minister is extending this legislation for another year. Employment for young people has always been a great problem, particularly in recent years, and we must appreciate the efforts that have been made to tackle it. Any reader of Charles Dickens knows how young people suffered in the past. Although this legislation is not perfect, it provides a safeguard for young people. It provides a method whereby their education, apart from formal education, can be advanced. It is important that we take steps to see that young people will not be exploited, that we encourage employment for young people which will give them an opportunity of continuing and expanding their education. In developed countries like ours we have these safeguards but in this International Year of the Child our thoughts must go out to the millions of children in the Third World who have no such safeguards, or even sufficient food. I mention that to show that we must take a definite course when dealing with legislation like this.

In this city the corporation have many fine places where societies, clubs and organisations can help to provide employment for young people. In AnCO young trainee apprentices are being employed on useful works. In one instance a parochial housing society have been given a house to be turned into flats. AnCO are arranging for the decoration and so forth that has to be done in this regard and the people employed on that are mainly young people.

Sometimes in public houses I see young people employed to take drink from the bar to the tables. I do not visit these places frequently, but I consider that we should examine this very carefully. Is that suitable employment for young people? Many of them have to take up such jobs because of the economic circumstances of their families, but that is not the right criterion for judging the suitability of employment. Some years ago I spoke on this matter in this House and both the Minister of the day and our spokesman were perturbed about it. We must be very strict in our application of this legislation and we must be very vigilant to ensure that young people are old enough to be employed and that the conditions and the work are suitable to them. I suggest that bringing drinks around in public houses is not suitable employment for young people.

In rural areas, especially at harvest time, there is great scope for activity for young people in such occupations as picking strawberries, potatoes or other fruits and vegetables in the open air. That is good for their health and also they are remunerated. However, I would like to see more organised labour for young people. Teachers have enough to do nowadays without becoming involved altogether in extra-mural activities, but I appeal to parochial societies to help the teachers. They might well be able to organise young people in work on social matters within the parish. I do not suggest that we should infringe on the labour market in any way but certain things could be done in, say, a parish which would make the whole area so much better to live in. There is State money for such projects and the local authorities would donate money also for this type of activity.

I suggest that as much publicity as possible be given to the statement made by the Minister in introducing the motion. People are not always aware of what they are entitled to or what is available for them. Uppermost in our minds must be the protection of young people but we must protect them by educating them so that they will become good citizens and build up their characters. Also we must encourage employment for young people during the holidays rather than in the school period. We send them to school so that they will be educated and therefore we must ensure that education comes first. Education can be very broad. There is formal education at the school desks and there can be education outside that also through the provisions I have mentioned. In this legislation we have an instrument which can be of enormous benefit to young people. The legislation imposes extensive duties on employers in regard to young people, and this is as it should be. We must make sure that young people will not be exploited by unscrupulous employers. Human nature being what it is, we will always have a small number of unscrupulous employers, therefore the whole weight of the State's legislative powers and powers of control must be exercised here.

At present especially, youth are being exploited by all kinds of commercial interests, not necessarily in employment. Teenagers have become the greatest spenders in our society. Very often they are given a false set of values and being led to believe that life will be easy and that it is not necessary to work for it. We should stress to young people that the work ethic is really worth while. Young people are generous and they respond satisfactorily to leadership. When we enact legislation for the protection of youth we can, without becoming complacent say that we have an instrument here to fashion a good social work ethic. The State, through parents and guardians, can fashion something really worth while for the youth of this nation. We can educate our young people, we can protect them from exploitation. Employers should be encouraged to provide employment suitable for young people. Employers, generally speaking, are good citizens and they back this legislation.

I appeal to the Minister to publicise the contents of this order. Because we allow the employment of young people in certain spheres we may become complacent and after a while this legislation may be honoured more in the breach than in the observance, and then youth will be exploited. If we bring home to parents, guardians, teachers and employers that this is what the State means by protecting young people, we will have a better society. In many undemocratic countries youth is being exploited by the state while in democratic countries youth is exploited to some extent by unscrupulous employers. This State has done its best to give protection against exploitation and this measure should be publicised as much as possible.

Mr. Bruton

I give notice that I wish to raise on the Adjournment the subject of the adequacy of the safety precautions from an Irish point of view at the nuclear power station at Wilfa in Anglesea, North Wales, and the frequency of official inspections of the station by Irish personnel.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will ask the Ceann Comhairle to communicate with the Deputy.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and at the Department of Justice (Mr. D. Andrews)

I am grateful to Deputies who contributed to the debate on this important motion which I moved on behalf of the Minister for Labour. In his extremely worthy contribution Deputy O'Brien suggested that we should adapt our educational system to the sociological needs of particular communities and I will bring this point to the attention of the Minister. It is a matter that should be examined by those charged with the operation of the educational system, under the guidance of the Government. The Deputy represents parts of the inner city and would have first-hand knowledge of the problems of his area. It is clear that there are very serious problems in the city centre area. I am a Dubliner and proud of the fact and, being in a position of trust there are times when I feel that I let down the inner jewel of the city. I know the area very well and have had family associations with parts of it over the years. I will bring Deputy O'Brien's observations to the attention of the Ministers for Labour and Education.

The purpose of the order is to protect young children against possible exploitation. Deputy Moore and others said that in the main employers take a very fair view of the employment of young people, but there are others who adopt a very unjust attitude and exploit young people to their own commercial benefit. Their only concern is profit. Such people are the exception, but these things happen. It is well to put these people on notice that they will quickly find themselves before the courts if they continue to practise that form of exploitation. The order will be implemented in a thorough fashion.

Deputy O'Brien also mentioned a children's charter and this is another idea which could be examined. This suggestion is not original and has been made at various times in the past. The reduction in the school-leaving age has not in all cases achieved the desired result. Deputy O'Brien suggests that we are paying lip service to the problems of young people who find themselves bored not only by the curriculum they must pursue but also by the environment in which they live. Consequently the raising of the school leaving age is of no advantage to them. The educational system should be adapted to meet the problems in particular areas, whether in the centre of cities or in rural districts. It could be a very costly operation but human beings should make money work for them rather than let money dominate them

The restructuring of the primary and group certificates was also suggested by Deputy O'Brien, together with the introduction of a new level. I do not wish to appear critical of educators. Many thousands of young people in primary schools are being educated by people who are second to none, and I say that from first-hand experience. Let us not be critical of educators but rather take a constructive look at the system. Deputy Quinn supported Deputy O'Brien in his general view of the draft order and did not see any reason why it should not be supported. The Deputy suggested something about serving notice on the Government, but I did not quite follow what it was.

Deputy Lemass made a positive contribution and, as a mother, she supported the idea of employment for young people which gives them a small amount of pocket money. Some young people do not see it as pocket money. They see it as an addition to the household budget. While I think it is important for young people to work during the school holidays, I am not very keen on the idea of young people working during school term. Having regard to the problems faced by some families, the reality is that young people from 13 and 14 years of age have to do their bit to put bread on the table. There is no gainsaying that.

In the draft order the age at which young people can work during the school holidays is between 14 and 15 years of age. The amounts of money they can earn are not so small any more. A young man or a young woman working in a supermarket gets quite a lot of money into his or her pocket. Their parents have an obligation to teach them the value of money. Putting a lot of money suddenly into the hands of young people can be quite dangerous. Parents have an obligation to explain the value of money to their children and in certain circumstances to encourage them to save. That is an important part of a young person's development. Young people should not be discouraged from working. Work experience is part of their development. It should not be overdone and young people should not be overworked. That is what this draft order seeks to achieve. They should be properly paid and the conditions in which they work should be properly monitored.

That brings me to the suggestion made by Deputy Moore about safeguarding young people against exploitation. He does not agree that young people should be employed in public houses. I agree with Deputy Moore's general premise. Having regard to our history in relation to drink, young people should not be exposed to drink at an early age. As the law stands, only people over 18 years can go into pubs and order drinks as I understand it. I am subject to correction on that.

The licensed vintners have been very careful about the point raised by Deputy Moore. They do not employ young people who are under age. The licensed vintners' organisation is an extremely responsible organisation and they would not allow any member to employ an unreasonably young person.

Deputy Moore raised the question of publicising the contents of the order. I introduced it this morning on behalf of the Minister for Labour. I am sure the media will take note of it and publicise it. People can read it in their newspapers and take note of what was said by Deputies. It is as well to restate the fact that there is a legal obligation on employers to publish in their factories the contents of the order. From the information I have received this morning I know that, under the Principal Act, the inspectors will ensure that aspect of the matter is strictly enforced. Those are two areas of practical publicity.

I am grateful for the views expressed by the House. I assure Deputy O'Brien that his views will be brought to the attention of the Minister.

Question put and agreed.

Mr. Kelly

On a point of order, is that the last business ordered for today?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Yes, except Question Time.

Mr. Kelly

There are 16 questions on the Order Paper which should take about half an hour, so we have the guts of four hours still to spend with no business for them except those 16 question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

As the Deputy is fully aware, the Chair has no responsibility for ordering the business.

Mr. Kelly

I appreciate that, but I want to draw attention to the fact that, on the Order of Business this morning, Deputy Barry specifically asked the Government for time today to debate the unprecedented rise in the bank rates and the likely rise in mortgage interest rates, and their impact on the economy. He was treated by the Government as though this was a matter of absolutely no importance with which they could not concern themselves. Yet we are rising today almost four hours before our time with nothing left to do but 16 questions.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is raising matters with the Chair for which the Chair has absolutely no responsibility.

Mr. Kelly

I appreciate that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There was a great deal of co-operation and expedition this morning to which the Deputy contributed. The sitting is suspended.

Mr. Kelly

I do not want to fight with the Chair. I hope you are not implying——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The business is concluded.

Dr. Woods

On a point of order, I should like to point out that Deputy Kelly is aware that since some of his spokesmen are away further business could not be taken at this stage.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The sitting is suspended.

Mr. Kelly

The new Government Whip must realise that——

Mr. D. Andrews

There was a Whip's agreement this morning. The Deputy is seeking cheap publicity. He is being smart alecky.

Business suspended at 1.20 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

Mr. P. Barry

I requested the senior Minister this morning, Deputy Faulkner, to make Government time available today, as the business appeared to be short —it has concluded I understand since 1.15 p.m.—for a debate on the high interest rates. I asked you, Sir, at the same time that, if the Government could not see their way to do this, you would allow an adjournment debate. You have written to me since, for which I thank you, to say you cannot allow this debate. I have heard nothing from the Government as to whether they will allow it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no control over that. The Deputy will appreciate that it is not in order to raise this matter now.

Mr. P. Barry

I know that, but I thought the Government would extend me the courtesy particularly as there is time between now and 5 o'clock. They have not shown any courtesy as to whether we are having this debate or not. Could the senior Minister, Deputy Barrett, tell us whether——

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 21 Jun 1979