Deputy E. Collins is in possession and he has five minutes left.
Private Members' Business. - School Text Books: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved by Deputy Horgan on Tuesday, 13 November, 1979:
That Dáil Éireann criticises the Minister for Education for failing to institute a review of the financing, publishing and distribution problems associated with the provision of school textbooks, in view of the widespread public dissatisfaction with the present system.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:—
"welcomes the action of the Minister for Education in increasing the financial allocation for the Free Books Scheme and his initiative in expanding the publication of textbooks through Irish."
—(Minister for Education)
At this time I reiterate my support for the motion and say categorically that the Minister's increase in the per capita support for free schoolbooks for necessitous children is entirely inadequate in this day and age. Last night I outlined the substantial increase in the cost of school textbooks at both primary and secondary levels. It is obvious from what is being said in this House that moneys devoted to this scheme are absolutely inadequate. The direction of the scheme is wrong in that because of the moneys devoted to it it cannot possibly achieve what it is supposed to achieve. A concentrated effort should be made by the Government over a period of, say, five years. I realise that the moneys necessary for the scheme could not possibly be devoted to it in one year or two years, but over a five-year period there is a very good case to be made for the establishment within schools, especially second level schools, of a comprehensive library of books including a reference library in relation to the various subjects being taught in the schools. I am disappointed that this Government have not made a concerted effort to establish a comprehensive library system within the schools.
I stated also that I was worried about the number of printing companies supplying school texts. It is my opinion that we are slowly getting into a situation where one, two or possibly three printing companies will have a monopolistic position in the supply of schoolbooks, and while the quantity of school books on the market at the moment is relatively satisfactory, I am worried about the possibility of a ring being established between these printing companies and that excess profits will be earned by them because of their monopolistic position in the market. There is an obligation here on the Minister to monitor the situation in relation to the prices being charged for school textbooks. This obviously is important to families, especially large families.
Extra provision should be made in respect of the amount of moneys devoted to necessitous children from large families. Every effort must be made to ensure that the assessment of a child's need in relation to school books is done on a discreet basis by the principal of the school. I stated last night that in some schools this was not the case and in some schools—not many—the children felt that there was a stigma attached to being designated as in receipt of textbooks. That is to be avoided at all costs, and I am sure that the present Minister no more than any other Minister would like to see that type of system evolved in our society.
I support the motion without reserve. The moneys allocated to the scheme are entirely inadequate. A revision must be made on a comprehensive basis of the type of scheme in operation, and some concerted effort must be made to establish in schools a comprehensive and useful library at both first and second levels.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on the amendment to this motion, and at this stage I would like to read the motion once again. The motion is:
That Dáil Éireann criticises the Minister for Education for failing to institute a review of the financing, publishing and distribution problems associated with the provision of school textbooks, in view of the widespread public dissatisfaction with the present system.
The amendment is:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:—
"welcomes the action of the Minister for Education in increasing the financial allocation for the Free Books Scheme and his initiative in expanding the publication of textbooks through Irish."
The motion was moved by Deputy Horgan, who asked for a review of the problems associated with the provision of school textbooks. Deputy Horgan failed to give any idea of the type of review which he has in mind. I do not think he mentioned any of the terms of reference of such a review body or who should conduct the review. A thought that crossed my mind was that neither of the Deputies who has spoken to date on behalf of his party mentioned the NPC survey which was announced in November 1976. They are an appropriate body to carry out reviews into prices and related matters. This survey dealt not alone with the price of school books but with associated problems such as publication and distribution. It explored alternative approaches which might help to reduce the cost and to improve distribution methods. Last night the Minister for Education stated that it is suggested that buying patterns be spread more evenly over the year and advised teachers and students to purchase the books earlier. There is no reason why this could not be organised and done.
The idea of longer printing runs and standardisation of texts was put forward, but there were many objections to it. Standardisation of texts could be educationally damaging. It would make it difficult to experiment with new curricula and could be counter-productive in those terms.
Deputy Collins has been worried about a monopoly situation arising. In fact, the reverse is the complete case at the moment. There is no danger of a monopoly situation in the printing and supply of textbooks. I quote from the report of the NPC:
At present there are many competitive publishers to choose from. This, in itself, acts to moderate price increases and to enable one to make some choice between price and quality.
Furthermore, Deputy Horgan, after talking about long September queues, went down to the doorsteps in Cork. While I accept entirely his word that he did not initiate discussions on the doorsteps from the public down there but rather when he said that he was Labour Party spokesman views came forward, I wonder what has happened to those views. Did Deputy Horgan suggest to the people that they should take up the offer and the suggestions made by the NPC and have the comments passed on to the commission so that their useful comments might not be lost? Was this advice offered to the people who complained? Has Deputy Collins or Deputy Horgan to date made any submissions to the NPC on the matter.
All that has happened so far is a matter of finance and school texts, and I would like to deal with that. After going through Cork in his speech last night, Deputy Horgan reached the grants-in-aid towards the cost of school books. He commenced with the 1977 figure and referred to the 1978 figure and then questioned priorities.
With the permission of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I wish to go back a bit further, travel back the road to 1975 and come up to date. I want to refer to the Appropriation Accounts for 1975, 1976, 1977 and 1978. I do not blame the Deputies opposite for not having gone into those years because it is amazing when one looks up the Appropriation Accounts what material comes to light. I would like to refer first to Vote 29, Primary Education on page 78 of the Appropriation Accounts for 1975. The grant under subhead C7, Aid towards the cost of school books, amounted to £318,000 but the expenditure in that year was only £251,800. This means that there was an under expenditure of £66,200 in that year. There is an interesting footnote—this was during the period of the Coalition Government— which reads:
The Estimate included provision for an increase in the rate of grant which was not subsequently sanctioned.
When we have a motion dealing with free school books before the House and when we hear the spokeman for the two Opposition parties talking about finance it is no harm to repeat that footnote:
The Estimate included provision for an increase in the rate of grant which was not subsequently sanctioned.
Perhaps the Deputy who summarises the debate might like to develop that point. I will wait with interest to hear what is said.
I now want to refer to Vote 30, Primary Education for 1976 and subhead C6. The grant in aid towards the cost of school books was £500,000 in that year, the expenditure was £224,989 leaving a massive underspending of £275,011. One has only to think of the political mileage that was gained out of that £500,000 but I wonder did the public look behind it and consider that out of that sum of money only £224,989 was spent and there was an underspending of £275,011. The footnote for that year reads:
An increase in the rate of grant for which provision was made in the Estimate was not paid.
Deputy Horgan was not a member of the previous Government, but perhaps if somebody comes in from that august body in the next hour he might explain to the Deputy why this was not paid.
I hope that when the Deputies come to sum up this debate those two footnotes will be explained. I have done a little research into 1975 and 1976 and I will come to 1977, which is Deputy Horgan's starting point. I am looking for an explanation why that money was not spent in 1976. These are policy matters. A lot of mileage was got out of the £500,000 in 1976. A sum of £500,000 was put aside towards the cost of the school books scheme. I ask the educational correspondents to look up their files and the headlines they used then and to tell me if they were misled and if the general public were misled. I wonder about the sincerity of some people who come in here and shed crocodile tears about the under-privileged and the less fortunate in our society when one considers those figures and the footnotes to them. Why was the increase in the grant in 1976 not paid? The previous year it was not sanctioned.
I will now come to 1977 and I will deal with Vote 30, Primary Education, under subhead C6. The amount of money in that year was £250,000. On 30 November, 1977 a Supplementary Estimate of £8,000 was introduced and this was passed on 8 December 1977. This Supplementary Estimate was for £8,000 which gave a total in the grant-in-aid for that year of £258,000. The expenditure in that year was £256,000. This was up considerably on the 1976 figure. There was only a sum of £2,000 underspent. There is no footnote there because everybody knows it is very difficult to consider the number of applications that come in but one notes the timing for the introduction of the Supplementary Estimates. It was in the momentous year of 1977 which brought about a change.
In 1978, Vote 31, subhead C6 the grant in aid was £260,000, the expenditure £238,000 and the amount less than granted was £21,807. That is an interesting figure when one compares it with 1975 and 1976, but having regard to the footnote which reads that applications for grants were less than expected, some explanation is called for. I would suggest that this situation relates to the beginning of the upturn in the economic climate after the period of Coalition recession had ended, with the massive unemployment that that recession entailed, when there were huge numbers of children dependent on parents who were not working and when the need for the free book scheme was greater than was the case in 1978.
Deputy Horgan and, I think, Deputy Collins also may have used certain financial arguments to back up their case and to endeavour to persuade the Minister for Education to adopt a certain position. However, perhaps the next speaker from the Opposition will refer to the financial facts that I have put before the House.
The National Prices Commission have held an inquiry into the price of school books. Unlike Deputy Collins I am convinced that the competition between the publishers helps to moderate price increases. Bulk buying by schools could help, too, to moderate increases. In addition if the purchasing were to be spread over a full school year the anxiety and the hardship on parents at September time—and I admit that there is considerable hardship and strain on some parents in that regard—would be lessened. Many schools adopt their own distribution system of secondhand books, but we must remember that education is not static. It is an evolving process. The variety and quality of text books have improved tremendously. I wonder whether we give due recognition to the expertise of the authors and designers concerned. Some people ask why text books are not standardised and used for a long time. On the surface that concept would seem to be fine, but we must consider it in terms of an evolving situation. One must consider the professionalism of the individual teacher in the selection of text books, text books that stimulate and activate the children concerned and which would encourage them to be more creative.
Has any Member of the House knowledge of any child being denied free books?
I have.
Has the Deputy brought the cases concerned to the attention of the school principals?
Yes, but they said they did not have the money and that the Government would not give them any money.
That is amazing when one considers that according to the Appropriation Accounts for 1978 there was an underspending in this regard to the extent of £21,807. I know that Deputy Tully will realise there is a gap situation there. Deputies were quick to point out that they were aware of this underspending, but were they aware also of the footnote which indicates that the applications for grants were less than expected?
God bless Fianna Fáil.
That footnote indicates a totally different pattern from the pattern for the four years to 1976. It is good that the free book scheme is administered on the ground. There is hardly anybody who is better equipped than a school principal in regard to knowing the problems associated with the children in his area. I would take this opportunity of complimenting the various school principals on the manner in which they handled this scheme. I would not accept, as Deputy Collins implied, that the whole scheme is too open, that there is a stigma attached to it. It is handled very delicately and discreetly. Is there any other way in which the scheme could be organised? Can there be people better equipped to administer the scheme than those who are on the field of play, as it were?
There is not any child whose development is being hindered by reason of the lack of availability of school books. But we must continue to make available a greater selection of text books for slow learners and handicapped children. Special attention must be paid to the difficulties and the needs of sightless children, for example. Perhaps we could do more in the area of availing of the modern technology designed to help the less fortunate among our children. I am confident that the Minister will move forward in this direction.
Parents, too, must become more involved in the text book situation. I have listened to recent debates in which parents have objected to a certain type of text book being available. They seem to think that changes in text books would help in some way to change society. I do not think that schools and primary schools in particular should be used as a means of changing society. Text books must mirror the value concepts of our society. People expect changes sometimes from places which are not the proper sources of such change.
I welcome the action of the Minister for Education in increasing the allocation for the free book scheme. I hope that I have proved to the House that the financial allocation in this regard so far as this Minister is concerned is more honest and honourable than was the case in the years before Fianna Fáil were returned to office. The figures that I have quoted from the Appropriation Accounts speak for themselves.
I welcome also the initiative of the Minister in regard to the expansion of the publication of text books in Irish. Ar an ábhar sin is mian liom dul ar ais chuig ceist a chuir mé ar an Aire Oideachais, Mr. Richard Burke, nach bhfuil anseo faoi láthair linn, ar an 18 Feabhra 1976. Is í an cheist a chuir mé ar an Aire ná:
an eol go bhfuil easpa leabhair léitheoireachta, nach téacsleabhair scoile iad, ann i gcás daoine óga; agus an dtabharfaidh sé ráiteas ina taobh.
Is é an rud a spreag an cheist sin uaim ná cuairt a thug mé ar Foilseacháin an Rialtais san Arcade. Ní fhaca mé go raibh téacsleabhair oiriúnach do pháistí go fluirseach ann. Bhios ag iarraidh bronntanais a cheannach do pháistí, ach ní raibh siad ann romham. Tá fhios agam, tar éis tamaill ghearr i ndiaidh na ceiste seo a chur síos, go raibh téacsleabhar go fluirseach ann. B'fhéidir gur spreagadh duine éigin chun an rud a chur in ord.
Is é an freagra a thug an tAire dom ná go raibh sé sásta go raibh lion nach beag de ábhair leitheoireachta i mBéarla agus i nGaeilge curtha ar fáil dos na bun scoileanna cheana féin trí mhéan scéimeanna éagsúla deontais agus socruithe eile. Luaigh sé scéimeanna na leabharlanna bunscoile atá á reachtáil i gcomhar leis na húdarais áitiúla; comhoibriú le Club Leabhar na Sóisear; scéimeanna deontais d'foilsitheoirí agus do phríomhoidí chun leabhair bhreise léitheoireachta, leabhair leabharlainne agus athinsint Ghaeilge ar fhoilseacháin oiriúnacha Béarla a chur ar fáil; agus foilseacháin de chuid an Ghúim a bheadh oiriúnach do pháistí bunscoile. Mar fhocal scoir luaigh sé scéimeanna deontais chun irisí oideachasúla agus leaganacha Gaeilge de scéalta idirnáisiúnta a chur ar fáil.
Is iontach na sceimeanna iad agus tá me sásta go bhfuil Aire Oideachais ár linne ag gabháil leis na scéimeanna sin, go bhfuil leabhair oiriúnacha ann do pháistí. Molaim do thuismitheoirí agus do mhuintir na hEireann uile, os rud é go bhfuil an Nollaig chugainn anois, cuairt a thabhairt ar Fhoilseacháin an Rialtais. Feicfidh siad ann sár leabhair. Tá siad deas, ildathach, an-éagar orthu, agus molaim do dhaoine iad a cheannach.
At the time when parents will think of the annuals which come from abroad—and I am not knocking them—let them also think that there is available through the Government Publications Office a fantastic assortment of tremendous books in Irish. I hope the people of Ireland will rise to a "buy Irish" campaign in this regard. They will make excellent reading and wonderful presents. It is my privilege cuidiú with the amendment of the Minister for Education.
I thought that the idea here in this House was that when a motion like this is put down to be discussed in a cool calm way, the result would be that the Minister would realise that everything is not well with the question of education, particularly the provision of school text books, and would carry out a review of the financing, publishing and distribution of such books. I was rather surprised to find that instead of accepting that this was something which could be discussed here and the views of all parties and Members of the House obtained, he decided to say that everything was all right with education and that there was no necessity to do any of the things that were suggested. The last speaker even wanted to know who would carry out the review. It was rather naive of a Member of this House to ask a question like that. The Minister would almost certainly make a recommendation as to who would carry out the review. I assume it would be carried out either by his officials or by a committee of the House. Rather than do that an idea was thrown out by the Minister and, this evening, by Deputy Murphy that everything in the field of education in regard to school books was as it should be and in fact that things were better than they were in the time of the last Government.
I do not know what joy it will bring to parents who are finding it difficult to buy books for their own children to be told that for some unexplained reason considerable sums of money which were made available in the years 1973 to 1976 were not expended. While I do not want to go back over ancient history, it is only right to say that from 1968 until 1973 there was no change whatever in the grant. In 1973 there was an upward alteration; in 1974 there was an upward alteration. In view of those facts it sounds rather hollow when the Minister and his Deputies try to give the impression that when they arrived on the scene nothing was being done.
Indeed Deputy Murphy reminds me of something rather amusing which occurreo over the last few weeks. It was amusing looking at it from a certain angle but it is perhaps not so amusing to those affected by it. When the punt was falling down, the Government told us that this was good for the economy because we were more competitive particularly with Great Britain and therefore the drop in the value of the punt as against the £ sterling was a good thing. When the punt again reached parity with sterling there was nearly a ceilí in Fianna Fáil headquarters celebrating the fact. The same thing happened in regard to school books, according to Deputy Murphy, who said that the amount of money which was allocated in 1975 and 1976 was not entirely spent and that this meant there was something wrong but in the years 1977 and 1978 when the same thing happened he said it was a proof that the country was recovering from the recession because the people were able to pay for their own children's school books.
It is of interest to repeat something which the Minister just skidded over, and that was, when he came into office in 1977 £258,000 was provided for free school books and £256,000 was spent. That was fair enough. But in 1978 all that the Minister could wangle out of his predecessor was a mere £260,000, only £2,000 more than the previous year. In view of the inflation which occurred up to then and which has since been occurring it is ridiculous for anyone to suggest that the amount of money which has been made available for free school books is anything like meeting the demand.
The question was posed to all of us, and I answered it by way of interruption during Deputy Murphy's speech, if we knew of teachers who had not given school books to children. I and other Deputies know of teachers who were unable to provide school books for children free of charge or at a reduced price. According to what they told me, the reason was that the Government would not give them the money. The whole system is wrong. Apart from the fact that there is not enough money, the usual method adopted is to find out if the family have a medical card. I do not know if those who thought out this system are aware of the fact that families have medical cards for many reasons but they do not want the world to know about it. They are entitled to keep their dignity if they feel it necessary not to disclose the fact that they have medical cards. However, if their children want free school books or books at a reduced rate, they must disclose that fact. I am speaking as somebody who has no teaching experience or experience of the administrative side of education. I am talking as somebody who meets many people who are unable to pay for their children's books and who want to know what can be done for them.
It is not unusual for the youngest member of a family in the month of September to ask for £9 or £10 for books. The price goes up according to the age of the children and in many cases there are five or six school-going children who must have books. Until a week ago farm workers and their families were existing on slightly more than £50 per week—they now have somewhat less than £60—and this is not an uncommon wage in rural Ireland. How can such families be expected to find amounts of up to £50 or £60 to pay for school books? The situation is all the more ridiculous when it transpires that the books used in the previous year are of no use. I heard Deputy Murphy trying to explain the thinking behind the changing of the books. He said it broadens the mind, gives the children more interesting reading matter and so on. That is of little use to children who cannot afford books at all, who are left for half the term without any books other than those on loan from other children. This situation exists and I do not want anybody to say otherwise. This is modern primary education in the Ireland of 1979. The sooner we stop making a political football of education and of trying to score political points the better. People sent to this House are responsible to ensure that those whom they represent get the best value possible.
We know that people in third-level education suffer because of lack of funds. Secondary education is also badly financed, although not to the same extent. Only a relatively small proportion of people reach third level education and the proportion at second level is not as high as it should be, but every child in the State should be able to go to school and receive primary education. If the necessary facilities were provided for children they could absorb much more from their primary education. I realise that I cannot deal with matters such as the type of schools and the classes those children attend. We have now something that I did not think I would see in my lifetime—there are many children leaving school who are semi-literate. That is wrong. It is a shame on all of us and we should do something about it.
I am sure somebody will say that I was a member of the previous Government and will ask why I did not do something about the matter. First, it was not my function to deal with education and, secondly, at that time we were doing many things that needed urgently to be done. However, when I was in Opposition before and when I was in government I felt as strongly as I feel now that primary education is not getting a fair deal. There is no point in the Minister or backbenchers in the Government party saying that they are doing better than was the case some years ago. That is not good enough. Now is the time to do something for those children.
A few days ago I had a visit from a lady who had three children and whose husband was on social welfare benefit for quite a long time. The children came to her with bills of £9, £12 and £15 for school books and she had not the money to pay for them. She explained the position to the teacher, a decent person who was very anxious to help. However, the most he could provide from the State fund was £3.50. What is to happen in such a case? Are the children to be left without books or has the teacher to buy the books and pay for them out of his own pocket? This is happening. Many teachers do not do this but many others pay for school books and they are unable to get the money. This is wrong. It is the responsibility of the Government and the Minister in charge of education to ensure that this does not continue. If a specific case is made in this House for money for books that provision would be supported by every right thinking Deputy. Despite the criticism of the Minister, Deputy Horgan made an excellent contribution in opening this debate. He was quite right when he referred to secondary school children standing around in the rain every year outside bookshops looking for books. They should not have to do this.
There is no reason in the world why the Department of Education should not be able to organise the provision of those books in the classrooms because every school knows the number of children likely to attend. If the provision is made that the books will be supplied, will be sold, or whatever arrangement has to be made within the confines of the school, then those books will be bought and there will be no loss involved. But to have people taking time off for the purpose of standing around queueing for books which may or may not be available is ridiculous. I do not think it happens now anywhere else except in this country. It was happening elsewhere but provision was made for the swapping of books between pupils and schools in order to prevent it.
If the Department of Education are really sincere about ensuring that primary school children get the proper education to which they are entitled they should ensure that the books are retained for a period of two to three years at the very least. This will ensure that the children themselves and their parents will take greater care of the books being used when they are bought new. I know reference was made by the Minister to the fact that it would not work because leaves would fall out of books. Of course they do; leaves will fall out of new books, as we all know also; people may pull out leaves accidentally or otherwise. But if a child who gets a new book is aware that when he or she is finished with it their younger sister or brother will be using it next year and perhaps another sister or brother the following year I am quite sure additional care will be taken of it and it will be retained in proper condition. Books are very expensive at present. But what happens? Particularly coming towards the end of the school term children just do not bother about taking care of them.
There is another matter which has been only very slightly touched on and one which is of very great concern, that is, the cost of other items, particularly copies, pencils, pens and all that goes with them. I do not know whether the Minister has recently had a check made on the amount of this sort of material and the cost to the pupil. I know it is not uncommon at present for some schools to have an all-purpose copybook, one used for everything. The result is that over a period it is very difficult to know what exactly is going on. The Minister, if he is really serious about it—even if he wants to do it by deciding that his officials are the people who should carry out this inquiry—will have an investigation carried out and that not merely in a few schools around this city. I know conditions in some of them are bad. I know also that what happens in country areas could be multiplied many times in the larger schools here in the city. But in country areas where there are in many cases no modern schools, no heating, indeed very little bus transport to take the children to school, the people tend to become the forgotten people of education. It is the responsibility of the Minister and his Department to see that they are brought up-to-date and that the pupils are treated in the same way as those attending one of the more modern schools.
Where I live there is a very modern school where every effort is made to have everything done correctly. Not so far away from me there was an oldish school, quite a good school and in the next part of the parish to it there was a school which appeared to be quite good but, because the school-attending numbers were dropping there a few years ago, the Department of Education decided to close it, to transfer the children into the bigger parish school with a guarantee that there would be transport provided for them. For some reason or another a dispute arose between the person who was running the children in there and the Department of Education. The result has been that for several months, there has been no transport and there is no education. Here are 47 children with no way of getting any education at all.
That is just another facet of the neglect I claim is being applied to primary education in Ireland. We must do something more than we are doing about it. The reply which the Minister for Education gave to the proposal here yesterday evening shows that he was more interested in scoring points, more interested in proving that he was, like Caeser's wife, above suspicion in regard to the treatment of education in the country than he was in saying to the House: "Look, everything is not perfect. I can help. It is my job to do it and I will do it." It is very easy for people to get wrapped up in the particular job they are doing and to feel that any criticism of that job is indeed a criticism of the person himself.
I should like to make it very clear here that I am not criticising the Minister nor indeed the Minister of State present here this evening. But I am criticising the system, indeed, a system which was condemned as far back as the time of Pádraig Pearse. It has improved, but not anything like the way it should. Here we are, after so many years of self-government, arguing in this House as to whether or not we should be able to provide the necessary money to ensure that all children in our primary schools have school books. It is very wrong that this should be so, that the occasion should arise when we are forced into that position. As Deputy Horgan pointed out last evening, the question of the provision of school books for everybody was considered here a few years ago. It was estimated then that it would cost £4 million to provide all primary school children with free books. We say now it cannot be done. In a budget which is so high that £4 million is a mere grain of sand we cannot find, not alone the £4 million but a fraction of it, in order to ensure that the teachers can provide those children with books.
The question of who is or should be responsible for the issue of the school books is something else which comes up for comment. I often hear teachers who very much resent the fact that the onus is placed on them to decide who is sufficiently poor to be supplied with some assistance and who is not. I might point out to them that particularly in country areas they are in a unique position because they know, better than anybody else, who would be entitled to them. However, they seem to think there should be some other system. I could not suggest what system would work better than the existing one. There may be one, but I should like to hear of it. I know it may be extremely embarrassing, particularly to the younger teachers now becoming principal teachers in schools—something which would have been unheard of a few years ago but now we are very glad to see quite a number of very young men and women becoming principal teachers in our schools—who feel it is asking a bit much of them to decide on who should and should not get books. They also resent very much when they have a class and they know that a considerable number—more than the 25 per cent referred to in the Minister's opening speech—require at least some assistance towards the cost of school books and then discover that they just have not got the money to give them. Very often there are unreasonable people who seem to think that the teachers who are getting money should give free books even to people who would be doubtfully entitled to them. This makes the teachers' job very much more difficult.
I mentioned the circumstances of the teacher who is asked to decide on the distribution of books to parents who have three or four children. I know several families with eight or nine children still going to school and it is not hard to imagine the awful task facing the parents of those children when notes are presented to them seeking an amount of money for certain books. In most cases it is beyond the ability of those parents to provide that money.
We must remember that the future of the country depends on how our children are educated. In the case of school books we are being very niggardly and not making much of an attempt to improve the position. The small percentage increase announced this year was ridiculous in view of the fact that the cost of books has increased so enormously. The Minister, commenting on Deputy Horgan's statement, maintained that the cost of living had nothing to do with the price of school books. That was a peculiar statement from a person who must know that the cost of living affecting an average worker's wage has a lot to do with what he can afford to spend on school books.
I ask the Minister of State to appeal to the Minister for Education to reconsider his blank refusal to set up an investigation into this problem. The Minister felt such an investigation was not necessary, but if it is not then nothing is necessary. I know some school children who are picked up at 7.15 a.m. for school and do not return home until about 6 p.m. and while that situation exists surely the least the State can do for them is to ensure that if their parents are too poor to supply them with money to purchase school books those books are given to them. Many of those children must travel a long dark country road to school. If the State does not assist the parents of those children in the purchasing of school books, in the years ahead those children will carry a grudge. If the State does not assist them many children will leave school, as happens at present, without being able to read or write. Those children will blame the State. It will not be possible to dodge that statement, because we are responsible if we do not make the necessary effort to ensure that those children get all the assistance required.
Mention was made during the debate of the slightly retarded children or those who are slow learners. What hope is there for any of those children if a teacher, instead of being able to give them extra assistance, must spend his or her time trying to allocate the school books in a class? That such children may not be a big problem at present but it may get greater as time goes on. The Minister mentioned that things were not as bad now as they were 40 years ago, but that is a poor argument. Bad as schools were 40 years ago, at least all the children attending school had school books. In 1979 we have reached the stage where the Government claim that they do not think it is necessary to have an inquiry into a better system of distributing whatever books are available to the children who need them.
Tá sé ráite in áit éigin i nGaeilge, "Má tá rud i do leabhair nach bhfuil i do mheabhair, caill do leabhair agus tá tú i do mhaithleabhar". Níl mise ag iarraidh beag a dhéanamh de thábhacht leabhar i gcúrsaí oideachais nó cursaí scoileanna. Tuigim, mar thuismitheoir, mar mhúinteoir, gur ceann de na háiteanna is tábhachtaí i gcúrsaí oideachais é agus, mar sin, go mba cheart go mbeadh sé ar fáil do chuile dhalta scoile.
Nobody will attempt to make little of the importance of school books in the lives of our children or as an aid to education. In so far as we speak of education as being ideally afforded to all our students we must of necessity accept that text books should be available to all without any undue hardship or embarrassment. The debate on this motion has been an educated one and I do not wish to upset the tranquillity of it. I agree with Deputy Tully as to what the correct spirit of the debate should be, that we should pool our thoughts and emerge better people than we were when we came to listen. The Minister can speak for himself, but in his absence I want to defend him against what Deputy Tully accused him of saying about everything being perfection. The Minister would be as ready as I am to agree that in respect of any human institution nobody, except a fool, would claim that everything was perfection. I am sure the Minister did not make any such claim.
Whatever imperfections there are they are not the creation of the Department of Education and they cannot be solved in their entirety by the Department. I am at a loss to understand the approach of the Opposition, who seem to suggest that the Department should take on to itself what I regard as an authoritarian role and indicate to all what should happen. I do not think those who contributed to the debate would suggest that the Department should supplant the managerial system we have. They would not suggest that the Department should impose its will on the teachers who are the educationalists and indicate to them precisely what books they should buy, or that Deputy Horgan, or, indeed, Deputy Tully, would require of the Department of Education to indicate to trade unions what they should require printers to work for so that books could be made available at a cheaper price to people disposed to buy them. They have referred to an area that provides the gap between what exists and what is perfection, and might be correct, but have given no clear indication of how the existing problems, as they see them, might be remedied. There, I would see the spirit of the debate, as indicated by Deputy Tully, falling short of what he himself would require. I appreciate that a speaker from the Opposition has still to make his contribution. I would ask if perhaps he would indicate—and I confine myself to the areas to which I refer—whether the Department of State should take over entirely the question of the selection and provision of books and that neither teachers, nor boards of management, nor anybody else, would have a say in it, and whether the Department should say to the teachers "Even though you feel, and know, that a certain book would be of great advantage to your students, you must not buy that, without consulting with the Department and getting their permission", and that they could wilfully deny a student the right to benefit from that particular book.
I have the honour of administering the scheme which looks after what is described as a necessitous student, and can say, in respect of the last two years, that where it was indicated to me that there was a child who really could not buy books, we made moneys available for all those cases. I am at a loss to understand why—because I know that he is a vigilant Deputy—if he came across such a very deserving case, he did not ask the Department and we might have been in a position to help him. Exhortations as to the perfect state are always easy to make—I made them in opposition; I continue to make them in my daily life—but to be sincere about this, we must be more precise in indicating the specific area where improvements can be made. Improvements are being made. I do not want to give any litany of figures but can say, in respect of the current financial year, the rate of grants for necessitous pupils in national schools has been increased by 50 per cent. I am not going back to what would be described as Coalition times, but as against last year. There has been an increase of 30 per cent over the 1978 allocation for second level education. That is not, in my opinion, perfection but, having regard to the availability of resources, it is a step in the right direction; it is progress towards what we all would want. This problem is not confined to what is described as the necessitous child. In houses without the benefit of medical cards, or not in receipt of social welfare benefits—the middle income person—in respect of the purchase of books, the cost of books represents a considerable demand on the resources of the household. I have applied myself to examining this problem—and did this as headmaster in my school, making submissions to the Department as to how I thought the system might be improved, even fractionally, and would hope that when Deputy Belton is making his final contribution and summing up this debate——
Deputy Horgan.
Deputy Horgan, sorry—that he will indicate to me, with the precision of which he is capable, how I can co-operate with him, not in providing this state of perfection but in continuing to improve the position that has been pertaining, certainly since this Government took office.
I understand that Deputy Horgan has given three minutes of his 15 minuates to Deputy Belton.
I wish to thank Deputy Horgan for giving me this opportunity. I have only three minutes and do not intend to speak at any length, but there are one or two points I would like to dwell on, the method of distribution of school books in particular. As a parent, I have a wide knowledge, having sent three or four children through school, both primary and secondary level, and think the method is entirely outdated and outmoded. The children come home with a list of books, having been told to go to some bookshop. At that bookshop, they are lucky to obtain half of the books needed, and they go to another bookshop. In many cases, they find some books on the list are out of print and unobtainable. Why should any book which is out of print be included on their list? Care should be taken beforehand that this does not happen. The Minister for State, who is in the same constituency as myself, will have seen long queues at bookshops in Dublin all during the summer. I have known of parents who have waited and have had to leave before they could get to the top of the queue, because the husband or some of the family would be coming in, looking for lunch. They could spend several days in this manner. Why could we not return to a system which was in existence 40 years ago or more, where the school got the books? I think it was Deputy Tunney, who said earlier that they would have a fair knowledge of the books required, and all the children would have to do is hand in the list in the school and the money, and they would get the books.
With regard to the provision of free books in necessitous cases, Deputy Murphy said earlier on that he thought that nobody was ever left without, but I noticed from the circular that it should be appreciated that there is necessarily a limit to the overall amount of money available to the Department for the purpose of the scheme each year. There is a limit, and if more people apply than there is money for, naturally all will not succeed in getting the books. I was interested to hear Deputy Tunney say that if there was a strong case made to him he would by all means do his best. I was not aware that such discretion was given, because when the children were told that there were no more free books, that the money had been exhausted, they took it that that was it. They did not know that if they made a special appeal there was a possibility of their getting free books even though the money had been used up.
There are other things I could dwell on, but I will not delay the House, seeing that I am on borrowed time, and I thank Deputy Horgan for the time.
The Minister of State's post bag will be heavy in the coming months. This has been a good debate and it has smoked out a few woodworms. A number of speakers on the Government side, the Minister of State and Deputy Murphy in particular, made some play about what kind of system we would like and about what kind of review there ought to be. The purpose of setting up a review body is to discover what needs to be done and what changes need to be made. I have a secretary who helps me for nine hours of the week and on the basis of that kind of resource I am not in a position to tell the Minister all that is wrong with the school books distribution system. The Minister has a fair number of civil servants in his Department and some of them would be well employed in working in co-operation with the National Prices Commission in setting up the kind of review body we have talked about.
Deputy Murphy said that text books should mirror the value concepts of our society. That assumes that the value concepts he is talking about are shared equally throughout society. Some values are shared but many people differ about other values. There are strong differences between the value system of the Fianna Fáil party and of the Labour party. The value system of the Fianna Fáil party—give to the rich, take from the poor and encourage everyone else in the belief that what comes to them by right is theirs by virtue of a system of political patronage—I would hate to see that kind of value system written into any text book.
Deputy Murphy dwelt on the 1976 and 1978 figures and it was instructive and amusing to listen to him play with them. In the 1976 figure the Deputy made considerable capital of the fact that a larger sum was originally voted than eventually authorised and in a falsely naive way he inquired as to the reason for this. The Deputy did his best to exonerate me from any responsibility. However in 1976 I was a member of the Labour party, a member of the Labour group in the Seanad. Enough sins have been hung around my shoulders in my capacity as a member of the Labour party that I do not mind another being added. Everybody knows that in 1976 people went around looking for places where they could save money and this was one of the places. I do not have first hand knowledge of this, but it is important in view of the need for honesty in political debate that we should admit that this kind of thing happens from time to time. The trouble about cuts is that they produce blood, and the trouble about blood is that one cannot put it on file—unless one is a latter day St. Januarius. I shudder to think of the amount of blood flowing in the Cabinet room at the moment that will not find its way to a file left for inspection by the next non-Fianna Fáil administration. The Deputy's approach to 1978 was hilarious, when he argued that the reason for the underspending in 1978 was because the economy was doing so well and that people were better off. If we were to follow that line of argument to its logical conclusion there would be no need for any free school books scheme because everybody would be able to pay for anything they wanted. The Deputy and the Government cannot have it both ways. They cannot maintain that the economy is booming and at the same time sharply increase, as they did over 1978, the rate at which the free book scheme is administered. The reason that the scheme has been increased is because it was under-financed, and it is still under-financed even after the increase.
The Minister gave a very good impression, one which is commonly given by Fianna Fáil Ministers, especially those who are members of an administration which has overtaken a previous non-Fianna Fáil administraton, of the US cavalry arriving to save the beleagured settlers. When the dust clears we can see that it is not so much the US cavalry but a crowd of cowboys whose horses have run away with them. The Minister made some statements which put me to further examining the figures on which both he and I are basing our arguments, and I have come up with some conclusions which do the Minister even less credit than I was prepared to give him last night. The Minister referred to the Consumer Price Index and argued that the Consumer Price Index increase did not necessarily mirror an increase in the price of school books. In relation to poorer pupils and families, the movement of the CPI as a whole has a very direct relationship on the amount of disposable income that they have for things like school books. It has already been satisfactorily shown by the National Economic and Social Council that at least 44 per cent of the income of poorer families is spent on food, and the three staple foods which are consumed in vast quantities by the poorer sections have gone up enormously since June 1977. Butter went up by 23 per cent, milk by 56 per cent and bread by 47.6 per cent. This is where the rise in the CPI cuts into the disposable income and makes an already inadequate grant system positively ludicrous.
The Minister referred to a National Prices report which showed that during a certain period the price of school books relative to the average rise in consumer prices was going down in certain areas. It is extraordinary that that survey was carried out over two years ago and referred to a period between 1972-1973 and 1976-1977. The logic of the Minister's case is that relatively speaking school books were becoming cheaper during the Coalition period. I am surprised that the Minister did not ask one of his industrious civil servants to ring up the National Prices Commission to ask if anything had happened since the survey. I rang the National Prices Commission; they only have one company, the Educational Company, under their general oversight, and within the last year the prices for school books published by that company have been allowed to rise by 11 per cent. At the very least that figure is equivalent to the rise in inflation over the same period. The price of school books, relatively speaking, was going down during the Coalition period and going up during the Minister's period.
Other speakers pointed out that the free school books scheme goes back to 1968. If we look at the period between 1968 and 1979 we find that Fianna Fáil had been in office for seven of those 11 years and that if blame is to be distributed for the under-financing of this system, seven elevenths of it should be apportioned to Fianna Fáil.
Much play was made of the increases of 50 per cent in the rate for primary school books over last year, and 35 per cent for second level books. Every increase is welcome, but the real question is, what is the increase worth, not over last year, but since the last time that an increase was made in the rate and the amount of the grant. That gives a very different answer indeed.
In the national understanding the Government are committed to paying more for education, particularly primary education. If we are to take the sums that have been given to us by the speakers on the far side it is obvious that the amount of extra money this year that will be given to primary education, for example in the free school books scheme, will amount to not much more than one million pounds. That is money that would not have been given but for the commitment of the national understanding. That is less than half of one per cent of the total education budget. This does not represent an adequate response in terms of the undertaking given in the national understanding, and I would be surprised if the trade union movement thought so. It is time for us to stop bandying figures. We should admit that the truth is—and the only speaker on the far side who even hinted at it was Deputy Tunney—that they cannot afford any more. There was a time in the hungry thirties when the Fianna Fáil party might have found it in their hearts to afford more, but in the sleek and comfortable seventies they find it impossible.
Now we have to look realistically at the situation and ask whether the education that we must believe is every child's birthright also includes the right to an adequate supply of school books, and, if school books have to be given out to some on a free basis and not to others, then at the very least the right to a system that does not have within it the seeds of discrimination and shame for the unfortunate children who have to undergo it.
Amendment put.
Dáil divided; Tá, 57; Níl, 36.
Tá
|
Ahern, Kit.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Gerard.Briscoe, Ben. Colley, George.Conaghan, Hugh.Connolly, Gerard.Daly, Brendan.de Valera, Vivion.Doherty, Seán.Fahey, Jackie.Farrell, Joe.Faulkner, Pádraig.Filgate, Eddie.Fitzgerald, Gene.Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin South-Central).Fitzsimons, James N.Flynn, Pádraig.Fox, Christopher J.French, Seán.Gallagher, Dennis.Haughey, Charles J.Herbert, Michael.Hussey, Thomas.Kenneally, William.Killeen, Tim.Killilea, Mark.Lawlor, Liam. |
Browne, Seán.Callanan, John.Calleary, Seán.Cogan, Barry. Lemass, Eileen.Lenihan, Brian.Leonard, Tom.Leyden, Terry.Loughnane, William.McEllistrim, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moore, Seán.Morley, P.J.Murphy, Ciarán P.Nolan, Tom.Noonan, Michael.O'Connor, Timothy C.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Leary, John.O'Malley, Desmond.Power, Paddy.Reynolds, Albert.Smith, Michael.Tunney, Jim.Walsh, Joe.Walsh, Seán.Wilson, John P.Woods, Michael J.Wyse, Pearse. |
Níl
|
Barry, Peter.Barry, Richard.Begley, Michael.Belton, Luke.Bermingham, Joseph.Bruton, John.Burke, Liam.Collins, Edward.Conlan, John F.Corish, Brendan.Cosgrave, Michael J.D'Arcy, Michael J.Deasy, Martin A.Enright, Thomas W.FitzGerald, Garrett.Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan-Monaghan).Griffin, Brendan.Hegarty, Paddy. |
Horgan, John.Keating, Michael.Kenny, Enda.L'Estrange, Gerry.Lipper, Mick.McMahon, Larry.Mitchell, Jim.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Leary, Michael.O'Toole, Paddy.Quinn, Ruairi.Ryan, John J.Spring, Dan.Taylor, Frank.Timmins, Godfrey.Treacy, Seán.Tully, James.White, James. |
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Woods and Briscoe, Níl, Deputies Horgan and L'Estrange.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 15 November 1979.