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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Nov 1979

Vol. 317 No. 3

Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1979: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Before the adjournment I was dealing with the work of RTE and making the point that we could lawfully exclude the more trivial and antiquated imported material from peak viewing times. Peak viewing time is a debatable matter, but for most people it is Sunday evening. It is a pity that we should be subjected to very ancient and rather stupid films of yesteryear on the only opportunity we have of enjoying television.

RTE could do a little more about choosing films which would be less insulting to public taste. I have had a lot of representations in the last 12 months complaining about the amount of violence on television. We have more than our share of violence here at home, but for RTE to continually portray violence, successful bank robberies and general vandalism, is to say the least undesirable. Surely the better side of life could be shown on television. It may be more humdrum but, for parents particularly, it would be more successful. We had wonderful programmes such as "Landmark" which, for some amazing reason, has disappeared. We should have some more industrial type programmes showing, for example, a new industrial complex, people at work, programmes indicating how people have succeeded in agriculture, such as the McCartin brothers, or in small industries. If that were the case we would be pleased to allocate more funds to RTE.

I have already mentioned "The Riordans". This was a good programme and a very entertaining one but it missed the point——

The Deputy is getting into a debate on the programmes which would not be relevant to the Bill. I will allow the Deputy to make passing reference but we cannot debate programmes.

I fail to see why we should have clauses about local radio inserted into this kind of Bill, which should be a financial one. I am convinced that, as it has been brought in, I am entitled to discuss it. "Talk about" has been on the air for some time and is doing a terrific job. It has satisfied the needs of that area. Despite that there are many independent pirate radios providing an additional service and there is a case to be made for an independent community broadcasting authority. It would give people an alternative to RTE.

I would designate its functions as to examine and assess the nature and extent of the demand for alternative local radio. In some areas there may be no such demand. It would also determine how this demand could be met in a controlled and orderly fashion, lay down the criteria for the granting of licences, allocate broadcasting licences, supervise programme standards and control advertising, as we do at present in relation to cigarettes and drink. Some of our major companies can still advertise drink on UTV. Companies unable to do this, because of the fact that in some areas UTV is not transmitted, are grumbling. We must face up to that situation, I am not saying I am all in favour of banning the advertising of drink but it is unfair that a major operator in the drink business should be able to get around the law. Another of its functions would be to control the finance of the stations by entering into contracts on the basis of franchise fees which would of course be related to the financial returns achievable in the particular circumstances. The produce of these fees would be available to the Authority to finance public service broadcasting. That brings me to another point. I am of opinion that in the event of the new Bill coming out shortly and in the event of an independent broadcasting authority being set up, in that context, I should like to see RTE getting out of the advertising business altogether. I think the revenue is about £10 million and if, as Deputy Horgan pointed out, the commercial people are in it for the loot, if, as was said in the UK, commercial radio is merely a licence to print money, we need have no hesitation in extracting from commercial radio the fees that would normally go to RTE.

The new Authority I would have in mind could ensure that the best use be made of frequencies so as to avoid overlapping and maximise opportunities for local stations. On that point, we in Cork have a problem. Since RTE 2 came on the air our local frequency has been taken over by it which means that those of us who want to get RTE 1 on the car radio locally find it difficult to do so. I believe that all this is due to some hold-up within the Minister's Department. Apparently, the frequencies are there but due to problems not yet overcome we are deprived of a first-class service from RTE 1 which is surely a minimal requirement at this time.

I should also like to think that membership of the Authority would be representative of a broad spectrum of interests, economic, social, cultural, community, youth, agriculture and so on. To be successful it must have a high degree of local autonomy. In my own area, and I am sure in every area, there is a wealth of resources, commercial and community, private and public which could be mobilised and harnessed to provide a comprehensive local broadcasting service including some people who are already involved in broadcasting, unlicensed as it is at present. I believe there is on tap in each locality a large pool of professional communicators in provincial newspapers. It should be envisaged that the provincial news media would have an important role in the evolution and development of a local broadcasting service. It can be validly argued that the development of local broadcasting could play a major role in regional economic and social development.

This would raise a number of issues, such as the placing of stations. There would be massive demand for that type of operation in densely populated areas and you would probably have an equally valid demand in a less densely populated area. With that in mind the Authority should contemplate the twinning of stations. The most important thing we would have is that in this independent broadcasting service people would have an opportunity to give another point of view not necessarily shared by the Authority. Young people would get a chance to participate in local debates. This is vitally important. If there are local problems such as the dumping of effluent or something that concerns a particular area then local radio and local television when it comes would provide proper media. Such a matter might be of no concern to people in other areas but in the local communities these are the important things as I have found because they concern local people.

I am also in favour of RTE debating our real social problems such as housing and unemployment which are among the things we should be talking about. With the possibility of an alternative service, if people did not want to listen they could switch over. Certainly, I should like to have much more positive debate on solutions to our major problems because I am convinced that television and radio as media are not there merely for entertainment. They have an educational function and a duty to help society. Possibly in the case of education—I think a Deputy this morning pointed out the advantages of the UK classroom system—we could be doing much more in this sphere. For instance on Saturdays and in the evenings when children are available to watch television, not necessarily Telefís Scoile, we should have more educational programmes——

The Deputy is now debating programmes again. I said I would allow passing references but we cannot debate radio and television programmes on this Bill. We can do that on the Estimate.

In regard to the provision in the Bill whereby members of the Authority are seconded if they stand for Parliament, I think this could have some serious repercussions. I should like the Minister's views on it but, as I interpret it, it would mean that the job somebody held in RTE would be frozen or retained for him in the event of his not being successful, which is a hazard of politics. To use an extreme case, if a political correspondent were to stand for Dáil Éireann and not be successful it would be unfair to him to find on the evening of his defeat or the following morning that he would have to take over his particular role having already identified himself with a particular political party. The existing system within RTE, where that gentleman could be put into the shadows and offered some less conspicuous employment and gradually brought back into publicity again in due course, is a much more desirable one.

I would hope, then, that the Minister will bring in his new Bill on independent radio and television. It is unfortunate that these announcements have to be made in Leopardstown. Surely the Dáil is the place to discuss these matters and to make these announcements. Will the Taoiseach dissolve the Dáil down in the Mardyke? I hope that in future when new legislation is being brought in it will be done in this House in the ordinary way.

I hope that the new broadcasting authority will have the type of muscle and independence that is required of it. I agree that commercial radio will be of great benefit to the community and also to its sponsors as a source of advertising. In that event I recommend that RTE be freed of their responsibility with regard to commercial advertising. Also, in the event of independent broadcasting being a reality, I hope that RTE will settle down to the more serious programmes and to the job of education. I would like to see the involvement of the local press and indeed the national press in this new Authority. Above all, this new Authority would be of particular benefit to young people, who at the moment are clamouring for it and seem to think pirate radios and so on are the answer.

I hope that in the future RTE or the new Authority will look more to what is happening elsewhere and, so far as programmes that I have seen in the North are concerned, that they would concentrate more on issues of importance to the people in these areas.

I do not begrudge RTE the additional money. How and where they are going to spend it has already been questioned. I hope they will spend it wisely and well. I hope they will heed the few points I have made with regard to violence on television and with regard to viewing times for people who are at work and who rarely see television but who, on a Sunday evening, get an opportunity to do so. Frankly, if we had this type of acceptable viewing the fees probably would not be objected to.

In rural areas which only have RTE it has been a real boon. In city areas people always had the advantages of the cinema and television was not such a wonderful innovation. But in rural and remote areas it is a wonderful thing that films from all over the world can be seen on colour television.

I agree with the previous speaker who said that we should be doing a lot more to ensure that films of important events such as ploughing matches, racing, GAA games and so on are shown on the evening of such functions. At the moment if something happens in Moscow or Iran the film can be shown on the same evening, but if it happens in Ballycotton there seems to be some problem. Something should be done to overcome that technical difficulty.

These are my few remarks on the Bill. I wish the Minister well in his efforts to help the Authority and I hope that shortly we will have a new Bill for an independent broadcasting authority.

I regret that there are not more Deputies in the House, because this Bill is not the relatively insignificant measure which it purports to be and which the Minister quite wrongly implied it is.

It is a much more fundamental Bill and it has to do with fundamental freedoms. James Joyce once said that ideas in this country when they take flight have nets thrown at them to keep them from flight. I often wonder why when some new development or initiative takes off, the first reaction of the politicians and of many people and of the various vested interests is to control it. I am a believer in a free society, a society which refuses to be seduced into introducing, as in this case, a whole cobweb of regulations and hindrances to people in the business of expression and communication.

This Bill here undoubtedly has a number of obnoxious elements in it. I believe that either deliberately or by accident it has been designed with a view to achieving an essential diminution of freedom of the individual while trying to dress it up in the respectable and generally approved proposal that more finance be made available to RTE. I question the integrity of the stance which puts both of these in one Bill because they are two very separate issues. As far as I am concerned, finance for RTE which is hardly something of which there would be much condemnation or inquiry about in this House or elsewhere for one reason or another, can only by vaguest peripheral reference be seen to be relevant to the contents of section 3 or section 4 of the Bill, both of which in themselves are different. I am not much concerned about what the tradition may have been because there are some traditions that do not necessarily merit great respect, though in general terms obviously one has a regard for tradition. On the one hand, in section 2 of the Bill we talk of increasing the amount of money available to RTE.

I do not consider that to be a suitable matter for legislation at all. That is not suitable for legislation. A wise approach to that would be to allow the Government of the day the power in the context of their total budgetary programme, which is approved by the Dáil, unfortunately so often, long after it has been spent. That matter should not be dealt with by the main House of Parliament so occupying its valuable time. Who is going to suggest that RTE or any other national institution should be brought to their knees by the recalcitrance of Deputies in an Opposition party towards voting more money for them? That is a waste of time, and we need some sort of enabling legislation which will allow Ministers to carry on with the proviso that the general budgetary strategy of the Government is approved by this House to vote money as necessary to national institutions.

Section 3, however, is very different. This morning the Minister quoted section 16 (1) of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960 as follows:

The Authority shall establish and maintain a national television and sound broadcasting service and shall have all such powers as are necessary for or incidental to that purpose.

He went on to develop this and implied somehow that that paragraph was intended to give power and in Government thinking, clearly exclusive power, a monopoly, to RTE to produce a local broadcasting system in this country. To put it bluntly, that is a complete misstatement of fact. I would consider that downright deceitful if I did not know the Minister too well to have such an opinion. He said, and I quote:

...doubts were raised recently as to whether the section as it stands gives RTE such power. It would be prudent to remove any doubt on the matter and this is the purpose of the amendment. The provision is purely enabling and does not place any duty on the Authority to provide local broadcasting services. It merely clarifies RTE's position in regard to the maintenance of existing local services and the establishment of any local services that may be approved by the Minister in the future.

If the English language means anything, how can the Minister justify a paragraph in the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960 which says that the Authority shall establish and maintain a national television and sound broadcasting service, and then pretend that section 3 of this Bill is a justification arising out of that Broadcasting Authority Act for the handing over to RTE exclusively of "the establishment of any local services that may be approved by the Minister in the future"? It merely indicates the lack of understanding by this Government of what communications policy is all about. They cannot even distinguish between national broadcasting policy and local broadcasting policy. It indicates a lack of sensitivity on the part of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the Minister of State and the whole Government to this area which has been relatively controversial in recent times in view of the raising to prominence of the pirate stations by people with entrepreneurial flair, a sense of adventure and a desire to communicate at local level. What happened? They were branded as law-breakers, their doors were kicked in and they were attacked and vilified in this House. I am not defending everybody who becomes involved in a breach of the law, but the clear decision by the Government to pursue this group of people in preference, so to speak, to other people who are engaged in breaking the law towards whom this Government are often extremely soft——

The Deputy should not make charges against members of the Government.

I am here to make charges.

The Deputy is not. Making allegations against members of the Government or anybody else of breaking the law is not in order.

I did not suggest that. You, Sir, did not hear me correctly.

I heard the Deputy very well. That sort of statement should not be made.

I repeat, and the record will show, that I did not accuse any member of the Government or any other Member of breaking the law. I said that there is a difference in emphasis in the way that this Government pursue categories of people who breach the law.

Section 3 of this Bill is nothing more than a continuation of the now traditionally accepted philosophy of the Fianna Fáil Party in relation to broadcasting which is to see it as an extension of Government. To my knowledge this philosophy was first enunciated by a previous Taoiseach, the late Deputy Lemass. That is the first distinction we have to make. Is broadcasting an arm of Government or is it a medium of exchange and of communication of ideas by a free people as untrammelled by bureaucratic legislation and ministerial dictate as is humanly possible with only such ministerial intervention as is necessary to protect public order and to regulate the air-ways? On the contrary, the thinking behind this type of philosophy is clearly to garner the power of communication in the hands of a government. I am not suggesting that this Government are lacking in charity or wisdom in this regard, but when we put on the Statute Book any type of legislation we must not assume that we shall forever have benign government and people who are motivated by the highest ideals, even assuming for the moment, to put the most charitable interpretation on it, that that is the spirit in which this Bill has been drafted.

This Bill at its heart is repressive legislation, the thin end of the wedge. When we come to debate our response to local broadcasting we will be told that local broadcasting is being taken care of adequately and that any suggestion that it is not is a reflection on the integrity, calibre and competency of RTE. For example, the Minister says that section 16 (1) of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1961 confers power on RTE to establish purely local radio services, although he knows that there is no truth in that. If that is the case, why is it written in here? The table to section 3 states:

The Authority shall establish and maintain a national television and sound broadcasting service and may establish and maintain local broadcasting services and shall have all such powers as are necessary and incidental to these purposes.

The Minister distinguishes in this table between national and local broadcasting services, but in his sales talk which accompanied this Bill not only does he not make a distinction but he implies that there is no distinction. He says that section 16 (1) which allows the authority to maintain a national television and sound broadcasting service is an instrument whereby they may establish a local broadcasting service. That is a contradiction, if not worse, and it is a disservice to this House. We must not be guiled or gulled into thinking that this legislation is somehow part of a package, that the other pieces will come in due course and that the possibility of giving licences to duly accredited applicants which the Taoiseach has promised are all going to come, and therefore this is one nice, tidy, round package. Each item of legislation must not be seen in the context of promised legislation or in the context of an environment created by such promises, because such promises are losing their value and their coinage daily. It must be seen on its merit, in isolation. Other pieces of legislation may never come or if they do come they may be repealed. This legislation says that for the first time ever, clearly enshrined in the hands of a State monopoly, local broadcasting is to be entrusted without any guarantee that anybody else will have access to it. Not merely is that a bad recipe for local broadcasting or for community broadcasting——

(Dublin South-Central): The Deputy is wrong there.

The Minister of State will tell me when he replies. That is the implication that I draw from this and I believe I am right. Not alone is it a bad recipe for local broadcasting, it is a very dangerous political precedent. We have enough monopolies in this country and it is fewer of them we need. The mergers and monopolies legislation promised by this Government might help in that regard.

Therefore I consider this section to be a dangerous device, perhaps not intentionally but capable of being used as such. Furthermore, it may be unconstitutional. The Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926 which is quoted regularly by the Minister as being the basis on which licensing is not now possible to independent interests, has a very shaky constitutional foundation. There cannot be either in terms of natural justice or of common sense any justification for giving to one group the exclusive right to broadcast. Such a policy is particularly repugnant when that group are stewarded by a handpicked board of a government, regardless of which government may be concerned. That is a dangerous situation. It is anti-democratic. If the issue were to go to the European court it might very well be found to be unconstitutional because it seeks to arrogate to one authority the right to communicate, using technical means, and this surely is the right of all people.

Section 4 contains similar risks. Why should an officer of a State or semi-State body be restrained in regard to his freedom? I can understand the possible thinking behind this—that a member of RTE who might be nominated for the Dáil might be expected to be given undue favour or preference in respect of the kind of exposure that might be given to him. I should like to think that the men and women in RTE would not seek to use such a device and that neither should they be open to such an implicit accusation. Again, that is an infringement of human rights and civil liberties which is unnecessary if the experience we have to date is anything to go by. Fortunately we have had experiences here of very eminent members of RTE having been put forward as candidates in elections and in most cases being successful. Why should we seek so glibly to limit the freedom of any group of people? There are precedents for this but they are similarly obnoxious. We had an example of it in Cork in the recent by-elections when a person had to give up his job in Posts and Telegraphs in order to put himself forward as a candidate. We should be striving towards the broadening of freedoms and not towards the limiting of freedoms. We should be endeavouring to encourage maximum freedom of expression, of people's right to communicate or to seek public office. We should not aim at immediately crowding in on such people, people who wish to see a new dimension to their lives but that is what we do if we have petty regulations and an over-burdened bureaucracy, often of a very dubious nature. I do not see any reason for such a situation and to be frank I do not believe that it is meant sincerely.

The tradition and the thinking of this Government, as enunciated by one of their most prominent leaders is to see broadcasting as an arm of Government. If that is the case, a worrying and basic question must be asked, that is, is the role of broadcasting in the State an ordered extension of the communication of government or is it something far more expansive which embraces all people and in which all people are entitled to share, which is the view I chose to take? Therefore, this Bill, deliberately or otherwise, will have the effect only—apart from the initial financial sanction with which we all concur but which should not be a part of this Bill at all—of tightening up individual freedoms.

Undoubtedly, the Minister will say that section 3 does not give to RTE the exclusive right to broadcast but I contend that the giving to the authority of the right to establish and maintain local broadcasting services and the conferring on them of all such powers as are necessary or incidental to these purposes is a proposal so wide as to imply clearly that the Government, by way of ministerial decision, can decide to adjudicate that purposes incidental to the maintenance of local broadcasting could include not giving licences. Therefore, we are seeking to enshrine and are encouraging the enshrinement of the exclusive monopoly of broadcasting in the hands of one group. Regardless of who that group might be, they should not have that exclusive right.

It is extraordinary that we have never heard any demand from RTE for such rights. I am aware of their concern about the development of broadcasting, including local broadcasting, but any professional body of communicators would be so concerned. However, RTE have never asked for and, to my knowledge, do not seek now the exclusive right to broadcast because they realise the invidious position in which that places them. We are told by the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy that free enterprise and competition is good in certain sectors. Apparently, it is not good in this area. Competition, contrasts and the right to varying shades of view are all good in society and should not be circumscribed or limited unless such a situation is warranted by the most extreme circumstances and then only for the most temporary and transistory period.

In a review of the year published in the RTE authority report last year on the question of radio development the authority said they had long been of the view that a single radio channel was inadequate for a full range of programmes and of programme choice for listeners. They said that on a number of occasions attention had been drawn to the need for a second national radio channel and that moreover the need for local radio stations offering a community-based radio service to the public was clear also. They said, too, that while every effort had been made within the constraints of the single channel to offer as comprehensive a programme service as was possible by providing some programme choice through the VHF band and by increasing the number of programmes originating outside Dublin, these measures were by definition of limited effect.

The point is that RTE do not seek an exclusive monopoly on broadcasting. We are fortunate in having so many professional staff in RTE and in particular that there is an independent spark activating many of them but these people realise that if they are isolated, if they have not the possibility of moving from one area of the communications industry to another, that if their communications outlet is limited to a State-governed authority, their freedoms are restricted as is the development of their professional ability, with a consequent disservice to everybody. Therefore, I appeal to the Minister to reconsider these sections. There is no public demand for such legislation and I do not know why these sections were inserted at the end of this rather tatty and brief Bill which ostensibly, is enabling us to give more money to RTE. The Minister's concise preamble to the Bill is interesting. In a very brief statement, two pages are devoted to the granting of a sum of money to RTE and then, slipped in at the end in two paragraphs are the references to the obnoxious elements in sections 3 and 4. Not one Government backbencher has come in to offer to contribute to the debate, but I intend to right that situation now and to ensure at least that some of them will be here to listen because the House must not be treated in this way.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present: House counted and 20 Members being present,

I am pleased——

The Deputy has his quorum.

It is the business of the Government to have a quorum.

Deputy Briscoe should not go away.

The Government Deputies may be called back again so they should not go too far away.

Deputies should not interrupt the business of the House. I have called on Deputy Keating to continue.

This is the first time I have called for a quorum. I did so because I detected a decided lack of interest by Deputy Briscoe, Deputy Murphy and other Deputies on this very important Bill which, I submit to interested observers, is nothing less than a major incursion on civil liberties and on the freedom of the individual.

There is freedom of speech and there is also freedom of the right to listen to what is being said——

Will Deputy Briscoe please allow the Deputy in possession to continue?

Deputy Briscoe should not flounce out of the House.

(Interruptions.)

The Chair would be very pleased if Deputy Briscoe left the House and if Deputy Kelly stayed silent. We could then get on with business.

Many of the Deputies opposite have expressed support and sympathy for the concept of independent local broadcasting. This Bill seeks to enshrine a monopoly of broadcasting in the hands of a State body under the aegis of an authority nominated by the Minister.

(Dublin South-Central): That is not true.

Of course, the Minister will point to the fact that the word "exclusive" is not in this. I want to draw the attention of the House to the distinction he draws in the table to national and local broadcasting, which distinction he sought to play down in his statement this morning. There is the right of people to communicate and we should not introduce restriction on that freedom. We should not seek to inhibit the right to communicate except in the most extraordinary circumstances and for the most transitory and ephemeral periods of time. That is what this Bill does.

We were promised by the Government a document on local broadcasting but we did not get it. I suspect this is what will be delivered as that promise when we ask about it in the future. We will be told that RTE are in the business of local broadcasting and reference will be made to confidence in the ability of RTE. Anyone who puts down a parliamentary question will be accused of not having any confidence in RTE. That position is unfortunate and is a disservice to the House and to the country. Perhaps I would not be so concerned if there was a good record with regard to promises. I know it is not in order to refer to other areas but, for example, promises with regard to ground rents were not kept. It worries me that promises with regard to local broadcasting will be dealt with by reference to section 3——

The Deputy is on record as supporting illegal broadcasting.

I have asked Deputies not to interrupt.

He is not supporting illegal armies.

I am very pleased to have fired the imagination and interest of a number of Fianna Fáil backbenchers. Throughout the day they have not said one word on this legislation.

We did not get the chance. The Deputy has been talking for a long time.

There were no Deputies on those benches.

Deputy Keating should make his own speech and not worry about speeches by other Members.

I am not going to take heckling without heckling back.

The Deputy will not be interrupted if he speaks through the Chair. It is the job of the Chair to control the House, not the Deputy's job.

I ask for the Chair's protection from these scurrilous and unwarranted attacks. In support of my contention that RTE do not seek a monopoly, which I suspect is enshrined in this Bill, I should like to quote from a statement made by the Assistant Director General of RTE——

(Dublin South-Central): A monopoly is not enshrined in the Bill.

Another Fianna Fáil promise has been broken. I was told I would not be interrupted but three seconds afterwards the Minister interrupts me.

(Dublin South-Central): I was only putting the Deputy right.

The Minister will get his chance to reply.

(Interruptions.)

Order. Only one Deputy at a time is entitled to speak.

Deputy Keating should deal with the facts.

In an article in Business and Finance, dated 7 September 1978, Robert Gahan, Assistant Director General of RTE, stated he was of the opinion that the pirate radio stations were hurting newspapers, and particularly the evening newspapers, more than they were hurting RTE at present. He said “There is no effect on RTE from the pirates at present”. I have said already, and I want to repeat it now, I do not believe that in a situation where it is considered licensing is necessary to comply with the law that people should be allowed to carry on unlicensed broadcasting. I would not support that attitude and have never done so.

The Deputy appeared on programmes——

If the Deputy wants the names of members of his own party who did so also I will be happy to give them to him. I suggest he stays quiet about the matter. The Government have overreacted in regard to this matter. Although the words "monopoly" and "exclusive right" are not in the Bill they may be reasonably interpreted from the reference to the giving of power to the RTE Authority to take to themselves "all such powers as are necessary for or incidental to those purposes", those purposes being the establishment and maintenance of national television and sound broadcasting services and the establishment and maintenance of local broadcasting services. If we are to introduce here a measure that seeks to give to RTE "all such powers as are necessary for or incidental to those purposes", how can the Minister suggest that one such power might not be the effective refusal to grant licences to others?

(Dublin South-Central): Only with the consent of the Minister.

I can assure the Minister that I am in no way consoled by that. It is not reasonable or right for us to put on the Statute Book any legislation which in the hands of a less benign Government might be used for repressive purposes. We should not have to depend on the goodwill of an individual Minister or Ministers. We should have legislation with a sound constitutional basis which accords with national justice and commonsense.

If it is unconstitutional it is unconstitutional.

The Deputy is entitled to put his own interpretation on what is in the Bill so long as he is relevant. Every other Deputy will have the right to reply, including the Minister.

Article 40 of the Constitution guarantees inter alia liberty to citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions subject to public order and morality. In keeping with that right there should be greater freedom of the air waves, not less. Granting effective local broadcasting services to RTE or to any body is a diminution of that right. The Minister may talk about proposals which he will introduce to widen and broaden local broadcasting, but nothing like that is on the Statute Book.

His colleague, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, has already ruled out quite categorically the suggestion that it is legal to broadcast without a licence. I contend, as does my colleague Deputy Kelly, that there may be a constitutional reason for suggesting that there is no basis in the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926, for such an attitude. Assuming that is correct, the facts are that the only reference by this Government to local broadcasting, apart from after dinner speeches which run glibly off the tongues of some, the only policy statement, the only decision, is contained in section 3 of the Bill. The effect of that is to seek to enshrine for all time the power to maintain local broadcasting in the hands of RTE. That is regrettable. It is a disservice.

We have to analyse whether it is right in political terms or whether it is a question of individual freedom. Let us ask ourselves how it can be done and how suited RTE are to the job of instituting and maintaining local broadcasting. In case there is any misrepresentation, I want to put it on record that nobody wants to undermine RTE. We all seek to support them in every way possible. We want to grant whatever moneys are deemed to be necessary for the proper running and management of RTE. Many of us are fulsome in our praise of them. They did a splendid job recently on the occasion of the Papal visit when they showed themselves capable of not just competing with but surpassing some of the finest broadcasting networks in the world. Their integrity is not in question. Their competence is not in question at national level.

However, local broadcasting is something else. It is not a question of the national network getting themselves organised along the lines suggested in this document which is a report on "Radio Telefís Éireann, Ireland's National Radio and Television Service", published earlier this year. In a paragraph headed "Community Radio" it is stated:

This facility is provided either by a mobile studio and transmitter unit parked in a village square or city side street, or from one of the regional studios. Broadcasting at low power on VHF or medium wave, the studio has an effective range of 3-5 miles. On average, some five hours of programming per day are presented during a week's visit to each center. Members of the local community plan, research and present all programmes.

That is a very good initiative and one we would all commend and respect. Unfortunately, it is no substitute for any kind of community or local radio policy. It goes on:

RTE confines its involvement to provision of the mobile studio and technical staff. A senior producer is assigned to manage the studio and advise the participants. He does not make programming decisions. In choosing centers to be visited, RTE aims to serve both rural and urban communities. The visit of the mobile studio is normally timed to coincide with a festival or other major local event, not in order to cover the festival but because the presence of an active committee facilitates planning.

The demands which I suspect such a welcome although meagre service place on RTE are significant. If a decision was made which was considered to be wise and proper, to ban the advertisement of something injurious to public health, RTE might feel constrained to curtail services for reasons arising out of lack of revenue or the Government's reluctance to increase licence fees or raise revenue in some other way. Even the meagre community oriented services operating at present and doing a good job would be the first on the list to get the axe.

Is there a difference between the ability of RTE to handle a national network and local community based broadcasting? There is. They are totally different. The fact that there is general public subscription to the concept of community based broadcasting means that we will have local management structures and local resources under significant local control or influence. Local broadcasting in the hands of RTE would not permit of that sort of approach. The responsibilities, whether statutory or not, are vastly and fundamentally different. I contend that RTE are not the vehicle through which local broadcasting policy should be carried out. I believe in their heart of hearts RTE would agree with that view.

Local broadcasting is a fundamentally different concept from some sort of quasi extension of what RTE are engaged in at present. What is local broadcasting? I should like to quote from a brief document submitted by the Bray association for local community radio. It is an outline of the Bray local broadcasting radio project and a brief summary of the role of local radio in that community. They say:

The basic difference between community local radio and nationwide broadcasting is that with local radio complete two-wave communication is possible and more relevant. Local radio is an active process where the local community concerned is at one and the same time the author, the subject and the receiver of the transmitted message.

As local radio is germane to this Bill, it is reasonable to mention this point. The difference between local broadcasting and other broadcasting services is that one is based in the community, reflects community values, is structured with a view to community priorities and is managed by the community.

I want to quote from another document the source of which I have not got to hand:

Local radio should bring a community together, its value in combating loneliness, isolation and fragmentation is all out of proportion to its modest cost. Local radio with its unique service can greatly help people who find it difficult to leave their homes, mothers with young children, blind and handicapped people, older citizens. These groups need no longer feel alienated and isolated from what is going on in their locality. The benefit to the community of local radio is immense and the costs are low. It seems a shame not to make use of the potential of radio.

If we are to involve communities with their individual sensitivities, with their concern for the local social problems, local personalities and local issues, RTE, a nationally based and nationally oriented service, may not be the vehicle through which that can be orchestrated. Their whole momentum, their whole way of thinking, their whole outlook and philosophy, their responsibility and unanswerability to the Minister, are in a different focus and on a different plane.

It would be far more healthy to have separate responsibility. That is why I oppose section 3 of the Bill. It is regrettable that this Bill is not in the context of the kind of broadcasting policy which we assume the Government want to introduce and which they said they want to introduce, that is, a policy whereby—if I understand the Taoiseach correctly in his remarks on this about six months ago—the national broadcasting network will be in the hands of RTE willingly supported by the unanimous views of this House and it should be adequately funded and resourced to do the job. Accompanying this and parallel to it there would be an independent broadcasting network with licences granted by the Government to people who accord to certain criteria, which should obviously include a reference to the ability of such people to carry out their responsibilities properly, barring the likelihood of them defecting after causing public outrage and things like that.

A third stratum would be the area of local broadcasting, community broadcasting, which some of the stations broadcasting without a licence have been involved in. They have the ability to focus on a much smaller community. Even though I do not consider the stations broadcasting without a licence to be what I would consider to be the epitome of community radio they, nevertheless, make a reasonable stab at it. We are talking then about a situation in which a local radio has a certain amount of local management skill, in relation to local issues and deals with them in a way which is fundamentally different from what I believe RTE can ever do under this Bill. I do not believe RTE can cope with that and there are others who agree with me.

There was an article by Edward W. Ploman in a recent broadcasting review, in which he stated:

There are three main reasons why we need a communications policy, first, we no longer have any choice in the matter, second, we can no longer afford not to have one, and third, we continuously make decisions which amount to unintentional policies.

This Bill is a decision in isolation. It bears the hallmark of a thinking which says that local broadcasting should best be left in the hands of the "professionals" or maybe the "politicians" if tradition and what is on the record is to be accepted. That is dangerous, unhelpful and will do the broadcasting services and the full network of such services a disservice. It will not enhance the prospect of good broadcasting. It may distract energies, resources and initiatives from the standards and calibre of the present RTE services. It deprives people at local level of a certain amount of local autonomy in democracy, which I consider they are constitutionally entitled to as they are in the business of communications. It also deprives them of the right to make the input, which they have to give, because of their individual skills and so forth.

Who is this Bill designed to serve? I am omitting section 1, which is the financial enabling part of it. We have a tradition in the House where we have options in relation to a Bill. We can either vote for or against it or we can abstain. We can, of course, try to amend it but I have no doubt that such amendments would get short shrift here. I believe it would be a waste of time to try to amend this Bill. If this was a sincerely meant Bill I would have thought, in view of what Mr. Ploman said, and what many other communicators have said, that references to local broadcasting and the allocation and assignment of powers in respect of local broadcasting for the future should best be left until we have a comprehensive document enabling us to view in a critical manner how broadcasting for the future should go.

We are told that there is other broadcasting legislation on the cards and that one Bill has already been published. If the debate on broadcasting is to take place shortly why was it found necessary to bring in this insidious Bill at this time? It is a mistake. I hope it is an error of judgment rather than a deliberate mistake. How can the Minister justify the extraction of one fundamental element of broadcasting policy, for example, the question of the power of control and autonomy relating to local broadcasting, and bring it to a decision now while contending that we will soon be discussing broadcasting policy and the opening up of the airways to people, not necessarily RTE? This seems to me to be a most unsatisfactory way of doing business. I would like to hear an explanation from the Minister. At the moment it leads one to the conclusion that there is some desperate reason for it.

The Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926, according to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, gives the exclusive right to RTE to broadcast. RTE is the only station licensed to broadcast under that Act. I do not know if there is a licensing capacity in the Act. Under what licence, statute or authority do RTE broadcast? What are the legal processes which allow RTE to broadcast? Are RTE also broadcasting without a licence? The Wireless Telegraphy Act is an enabling Act. What are the specific rubrics by which RTE occupies their broadcasting position at the central stage of Irish life? The position of exclusive monopolies, which is behind this Bill and the other Bill which is promised, is untenable and is repugnant to this party.

The Minister must agree that the Bill effectively limits freedom for RTE employees in section 4 and for people wishing to get involved in local broadcasting, in section 3. We have, to some extent, very adequate limitations on our freedom already, some of which have very dubious value. Thank God, they have not been excessively abused. I contend it is dangerous to have them there because there can be times of mass emotion and public reaction when politicians, with less wisdom than they might have on occasions, may seek to use such legislation for very temporary ends and when there could be massive inroads on the kind of freedoms we all seek to enjoy. I know that all legislation is a response to something. This Bill presumably is a response to some request from somebody some place. I see no demand whatever for sections 3 and 4. I do not know of any person who has asked for an exclusive monopoly of broadcasting for RTE. I do not know of any person who has sought to limit the freedoms of RTE members in relation to their access to this House.

I often wonder why it is that people who aspire to this particular profession are somehow tainted with the kind of brush which says that their freedoms should have more restrictions. What makes this job different? It is only a job, even though it may be argued whether it is an important one or an irrelevant one. Why should it be that every time a person raises his head and says he would like to exercise his constitutional right to run for the Dáil or Seanad we all say to him that he must lose his job, that he has to be seconded from his job, that we do not trust him because he is a political animal? If politicians were not so thick-skinned they would resent that. It implies that a person interested in politics, by definition, is a different person. That is not constitutionally sound and it is not acceptable. I ask the Minister to consider that also.

In an article in the Political Quarterly of April/June, 1976 called “Freedom in Broadcasting” by a writer called Tony Firth, he said:

Since the end of the nineteenth century, then, the trend of regulation and legislation has been to define, more and more narrowly, that freedom which radio and television might finally enjoy. I say "finally", because I am not suggesting that these powers, where they were not concerned with the details of licensing and such matters as endowing the Post Office with some probably necessary monopolies, were other than to be held in reserve.

Even in relation to a brief resume of the history of broadcasting, particularly from the point of view of the freedoms in it, we see that the tendency has always been to circumscribe those freedoms. Politicians attach great significance to the impact of broadcasting. Sometimes they exaggerate it slightly. Why are we all getting upset about licensing in this area? Why do we need a licensing system? The newspapers do not need licences. I accept that technical adjustments may be necessary to allocate frequencies to individual stations but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the freedom to broadcast. We are talking about the basic freedom to communicate which is enjoyed by the media. Neither the Minister nor I would suggest that the newspapers should be licensed or should have their power circumscribed by section 1. Nobody would suggest that and God forbid that it should come to pass. Why is this desire so articulated in relation to radio and television? Is it because television has more impact than newspapers? If the concept of the need to license people to communicate in an organised way through the media is valid in relation to broadcasting, it seems that it should be valid throughout a range of publications, including the new citizens' band radio, to which, of course, our first response would be to eliminate it or to introduce a regulation condemning it. We would rush in immediately. We should not rush in because it is a good development. I am not worried what they are communicating on their radios if they are speaking privately to themselves. I would like to keep an eye on it to make sure that it was not doing a disservice to public order.

I am not suggesting that we should license newspapers. I am suggesting that the non-licensing of newspapers is prima facie evidence that there is no rationale for licensing in relation to radio and television broadcasting above and beyond the technical and mechanical matters of allocating airways. I do not believe that the Minister paid any thought to that concept. If he has, I should like to hear about it.

Another reason why section 3 is unacceptable is that the character and sensitivities of local radio need a substantial amount of local input; in fact, they should be primarily locally managed. In an article by John Saunders in relation to the role of local radio in community education, published in the European Broadcasting Union Review of May 1976, Mr. Saunders, being the education programme services organiser of BBC local radio, there is a quotation to the effect:

The special aim of the local station will be to build a vigorous and satisfying local life, with a wide and progressive outlook. It would do much to make people proud of their community and willing to take part in its affairs. It would be at war against rootlessness to which so many social shortcomings are largely attributed....

He develops this theme which has as its basic philosophy the need for strong local control of local broadcasting. He was specifically referring to education which has enormous local implications for good. If local broadcasting is to succeed, how can it be administered nationally? Is it not contradictory to pretend that the best local broadcasting can only be administered by a national effort? He goes on to say:

"Community education" in the way we had seen it means putting back more where now there is less. It means establishing the individual firmly in the community in which he lives and which he understands and trusts. Seen in this light, there is perhaps little that is broadcast on local radio that falls outside our definition. It is, for example, significant information to be told that a piece of music is being played by a local musician. We do not, however, have to rely on such abstruse detail since the evidence quite clearly shows that BBC local radio is a major force in "community education".

There is no way in which we can deal with nationally organised local radio. There is a further reference from a series broadcast by Radio Stoke in autumn 1975 which expressed the essence of community education on local radio. Called "Time to Care", the aims of the series were explained in the booklet to accompany the programmes:

One of the most encouraging and significant ways in which the community is beginning to care for itself is in the development of "good neighbour" schemes and "community care" groups. The series "Time to Care" has been designed to encourage and support the development of such groups and to share and publicize their experience....

The Minister should reconsider the wisdom of depriving local communities of the power to organise their own radio service and of the power to give it the insights and expertise which such a process would inevitably mean.

(Dublin South-Central): That is what the new Bill will be all about.

I am glad the Minister mentioned that. The Minister is longer here than I am but I know enough to know that I would be a fool, as would this House be very foolish, if I were to base my attitude to current legislation on a promise. The only thing that concerns us today is this Bill. Who knows what tomorrow holds? If the Minister is basing his attitude on future packages of reforms, I suggest that his approach to legislation is fundamentally wrong. The only Bill before us is this Bill. We cannot be beguiled into moderating our views in the expectation that tomorrow will bring something else. The promised legislation may not be introduced for a hundred reasons—because the Government might change their minds, because the order of priority of the Government might change, because the Government may fall, because a roof may fall. If the two Bills were alongside each other I still would not accept such an approach. If assurances are needed about the integrity of this step, it should be in the Bill. It is wrong to pretend that that approach is acceptable because it depends on promises which may not be delivered. Even if the promises were delivered, what is to prevent the repeal of one measure while leaving the other measure extant? If the Minister wants the support of this side of the House he must have inserted in his Bill the enabling process whereby freedom of the airways is guaranteed in the letter as it is in the Constitution.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.00 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 December 1979.
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