Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 1980

Vol. 318 No. 4

Financial Resolution No. 7. - Excise—Hydrocarbons.

The Taoiseach

I move:

(1) That in this Resolution—"the Act of 1976" means the Finance Act, 1976 (No. 16 of 1976); "the Order of 1975" means the Imposition of Duties (No. 221) (Excise Duties) Order, 1975 (S.I. No. 307 of 1975); "the Order of 1978" means the Imposition of Duties (No. 234) (Excise Duties on Hydrocarbon Oils and Beer) Order, 1978 (S.I. No. 2 of 1978).

(2) That the duty of excise on mineral hydrocarbon light oil imposed by paragraph 11 (1) of the Order of 1975 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 28th day of February, 1980, at the rate of £13.54 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in paragraph 3 of the Order of 1978.

(3) That the duty of excise on hydrocarbon oil imposed by paragraph 12 (1) of the Order of 1975 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 28th day of February, 1980, at the rate of £7.89 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in paragraph 5 of the Order of 1978.

(4) That, notwithstanding clause (b) or (c) of paragraph 11 (5) of the Order of 1975, the duty of excise imposed by the said paragraph 11 (1) shall be charged, levied and paid at the rate of £1.53 per hectolitre, as on and from the 28th day of February, 1980, on mineral hydrocarbon light oil to which the said clause (b) or (c) applies, in lieu of the rate specified in section 40 (2) (a) of the Act of 1976, as amended by paragraph 4 of the Order of 1978.

(5) That, notwithstanding subparagraph (6) of paragraph 12 of the Order of 1975, the duty of excise imposed by the said paragraph 12 (1) shall be charged, levied and paid at the rate of £1.53 per hectolitre, as on and from the 28th day of February, 1980, on hydrocarbon oil to which the said subparagraph (6) applies, in lieu of the rate specified in section 40 (2) (b) of the Act of 1976 as amended by paragraph 4 of the Order of 1978.

(6) That paragraph 11 (7) of the Order of 1975, as amended by section 40 (3) of the Act of 1976 and by paragraph 4 of the Order of 1978, shall be amended, as on and from the 28th day of February, 1980, by the substitution for "£0.44" of "£1.53".

(7) That any authorisation issued before the 28th day of February, 1980, under the provisions of paragraph 11 (7) of the Order of 1975 in relation to the importation or the delivery from the premises of a refiner of hydrocarbon oil or from a bonded warehouse of articles chargeable with the duty imposed by paragraph 11 (1) of the Order of 1975, upon payment of a duty of excise at the rate of £0.44 per hectolitre payable under section 40 (4) of the Act of 1976, as amended by paragraph 4 of the Order of 1978, shall, so far as it affects articles imported or delivered on or after that date, be deemed to authorise the importation or delivery of such articles on payment of a duty of excise at the rate of £1.53 per hectolitre in lieu of payment of the duty of excise aforesaid.

(8) That the repayments of excise duty provided for in paragraphs 11 (10) and 12 (10) of the Order of 1975 shall, where the duty is chargeable and paid after the 27th day of February, 1980, be at the rate of duty paid less an amount of £1.53 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in section 40 (5) of the Act of 1976, as amended by paragraph 4 of the Order of 1978.

(9) That paragraph 12 (1) of the Order of 1975, as amended by section 40 (7) of the Act of 1976 and by paragraph 5 of the Order of 1978, shall be amended, as on and from the 28th day of February 1980, by the substitution for the proviso thereto of the following proviso:

"Provided, however, that the said excise duty shall be charged, levied and paid at the rate of £1.53 per hectolitre on mineral hydrocarbon heavy oil within the meaning of section 7 (6) of the Finance Act, 1933 (No. 15 of 1933), so sent out or imported on or after the 28th day of February, 1980, in lieu of the rate chargeable under this subparagraph".

(10) That the amount of any rebate allowed under paragraph 12 (3) of the Order of 1975 shall, in respect of any hydrocarbon oil imported or delivered on or after the 28th day of February, 1980, be the amount of excise duty chargeable less an amount calculated at the rate of £1.53 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in section 40 (8) of the Act of 1976 as amended by paragraph 4 of the Order of 1978.

(11) That the amount of any repayment allowed under paragraph 4 of the Imposition of Duties (No. 232) (Hydrocarbon Oils) Order, 1977 (S.I. No. 279 of 1977), shall, in respect of any hydrocarbon oil imported or delivered from the premises of a refiner of hydrocarbon oil or from a bonded warehouse on or after the 28th day of February, 1980, be the amount of excise duty paid less an amount calculated at the rate of £0.44 per hectolitre.

(12) That paragraphs 11 (1) and 12 (1) of the Order of 1975 and section 41 (1) of the Act of 1976 shall be amended by the substitution of "produced or manufactured in the State" for "made in the State", where the latter expression occurs in those paragraphs and that section, and in the said paragraphs and section "manufacturer" shall be construed as including producer.

(13) That, as on and from the 28th day of February, 1980, the rate of any repayment allowed under paragraph 12 (11) of the Order of 1975, as amended by paragraph 6 of the Order of 1978, in respect of hydrocarbon oil on which such repayment is allowable and on which the excise duty mentioned in paragraph 3 of this Resolution was paid at the rate of £7.89 per hectolitre shall be £6.10 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate allowable immediately before the 28th day of February, 1980.

(14) That the duty of excise on gaseous hydrocarbons in liquid form imposed by section 41 (1) of the Act of 1976 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 28th day of February, 1980, at the rate of £0.30 per gallon in lieu of the rate specified in subsection (b) of the said section 41 (1).

(15) That section 42 (2) of the Act of 1976, shall be amended, as on and from the 28th day of February, 1980, by the substitution for "£0.02" of "£0.07".

(16) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Mr. Kelly

A few months after the National Coalition took office in 1973, when the first world-wide oil crisis hit all western governments and subjected all the economies in the world to a strain of a kind which had never been known before because of the rise in the price of a single commodity, the only Government which were supposed to be able to make oil out of the air were the Government in power in this country. It was no excuse for us that the cost of oil had been trebled and then quadrupled. All the difficulties which we were obliged to face were of our own making.

When, in 1974, in consequence of these difficulties, in part to meet the fiscal difficulties and in part as a conservation measure the National Coalition Government imposed at one stroke in one day by one motion a duty of 15p a gallon on hydrocarbons, I can well remember the reaction from the side of the House to which the people have now relegated me. The sky was going to fall because three shillings a gallon was put on petrol, and a panic was created of a kind which I will not quickly forget. There were queues of cars at the petrol stations, burning up fuel as they inched forward to fill their tanks, with ten or 11 gallons if they were nearly empty and those which were half empty with six or seven gallons in order to save as much money as they would spend on a large whiskey. That panic was created and exploited to the utmost. I do not expect anything different from an Opposition like the Government over there. Deputy Richie Ryan was pilloried. Three years later he was still being pilloried for having taken more from the motorist than the Arabs had taken from him because of the imposition of a 15p a gallon duty at one fell swoop. This Government propose to impose, in the middle of a lot of other impositions, 20p a gallon on hydrocarbons.

One of the reasons why one can count on the fingers of a small number of men the total human population in this Chamber, between Deputies, officials, the press and members of the public, is that budget debates, whether on budget day or on the following day or thereafter, have turned into ritual dingdongs, predictable battles in which people with padded staves try to thump one another; and nobody expects from the Opposition anything except complaints. Not everything in this budget is bad and everybody knows that; it is designed very cautiously, as cleverly as they left themselves room for—and that is not much—to catch the favour of some sections of the community. I am not going to attack those parts of it, naturally.

I want to say this much about the duty on hydrocarbons. To put a duty of these dimensions on a product like oil and petrol at a time when the prime concern of a Government must be to contain inflation, and when the principal component of that—at least the only component which is within our reach—is the containment of wage rounds, is absolutely insane; because that increase is going to work its way through the whole economy. The hydra-headed authority over there opposite me—Esau is not there at the moment but Jacob is sitting in for him——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy might select better language.

Mr. Kelly

I have chosen two personages from the Bible. I cannot do better than that. If I am not going to be allowed to describe Deputy Haughey by a biblical term I will have to turn to other sources, and I am not short of them.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can call him by his own name.

Mr. Kelly

At any rate Esau has gone to his tea and Jacob is sitting in for him. The net result of their cogitations is that we are going to have 20p a gallon on petrol and oil; and every industry in the country, every manufacturing industry in the country, every distributing business and every private motorist in the country is going to feel the result.

Some people manage from hand to mouth and some people change their habits. I sometimes scrape along from gallon to gallon and sometimes I blow a whole tank full, but the average tank full of petrol is now up by £2 or £3. That is a very sizeable amount and that is only the ordinary motorist's petrol. But let us take the case of a manufacturing business, or any kind of a large industry which is dealing with heavy transport, and ask ourselves what is going to be the effect of increases of these dimensions on their oil bill. It is not going to worry them too long, because not many weeks will elapse before there is a quiet plop behind the door of the Department of Industry, Commerce and Tourism and an application for a price increase will fall on the floor there. The very same thing is going to happen with the distributing trades. We are going to see, as we have seen before, that increases in costs of this kind are the basis for increases in prices, so that what we are facing here in this 20p demand for an increase in hydrocarbon duty is not simply an increase in that. What is lining up behind it is a whole row, right across the board of the items which compose the consumer price index, of price increases.

In addition to that there is the question of the employees. I am not making a poor mouth for private motorists who do a discretionary amount of motoring. A lot of people are in that category and if the Government's intent is really part of a serious energy package—and Esau when he was here earlier this afternoon said nothing about that; it was not part of his brief—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows that in accordance with Standing Order No. 54 a Minister must be referred to as a Minister and a Deputy as a Deputy.

Mr. Kelly

I sat through four and a half years of these people's impertinence; the people had the nerve and the insolence to throw out a Fianna Fáil Government and elect other Irishmen in their place; and during those years I heard words being used in this House about who the real Taoiseach was which cast doubt on the status of Deputy Liam Cosgrave, my leader. I do not recall the Chair getting hot under the collar about that. I am not going to get hot under the collar if an image occurs to me in connection with the performance of these people over there.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should use the proper terms.

Mr. Kelly

I would rather avoid them than do that.

Mr. Killilea

Deputy Kelly is all blunder and bluff. He should get himself back on the rails.

Mr. Kelly

I am not sure if it was Deputy Moore or Deputy Killilea who threw in that interjection.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kelly

A party who went around talking about the real Taoiseach, as though it were Deputy Lynch in the years when he had been thrown out by the people and not by his own party, are the last party who can complain about soubriquets being applied to them; and I will not respect conventions which they contemptuously threw aside when they were out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will obey the Chair's ruling.

Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Lenihan)

Hear who is talking. It is all blunder and bluff. The Deputy has gone gaga.

Mr. Kelly

That Minister over there is the thirteenth stroke of the clock in the Irish political system. He is the one who invites doubt not only about his own authenticity, but about the authenticity of all the other 12 as well. He is a national institution, and I would feel a pang if he lost his seat. He belongs up there at the Hyde Park Corner of the Dáil where the odd bods come in. That is where Deputy Lenihan belongs. A leader of a Government——

An Ceann Comhairle

Would Deputy Kelly refer to him as the Minister for Foreign Affairs?

Mr. Kelly

I have no spleen against Deputy Lenihan: I like him. I cannot resist liking him.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kelly

But a man who thinks that in Deputy Lenihan is seen, for the outside world, the acceptable face of Ireland, is up a gum tree.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kelly will refer to Ministers as Ministers. Otherwise I will have to ask him to leave the House.

Mr. Kelly

Deputy Lenihan is the Minister for Foreign Affairs and I am not quite sure how he came into the debate on hydrocarbon oils. I did not bring him in; he brought himself in by his interruptions. I will continue to deal with him in my own way as long as he continues to interrupt.

Employees of Irish industry, employees of all kinds, in the service industries or in the manufacturing industries, who find themselves faced with an extra bill of this kind are not going to say to themselves "I am going to offer this up for Charlie". Far from it. They are not going to offer it up for anybody. They are going to present the substance of their loss in the next wage demand round, which will be on the Government's desk within weeks. That is when it is going to be seen. The Government I was proud to work for got the accolade from Deputy O'Donoghue, who has been disgracefully used as a scapegoat by the present regime in Fianna Fáil, as having been responsible for the healthy state of the economy in 1977 and 1978, for having successfully negotiated a reasonable wage settlement in 1976 and 1977. That is central to the economy.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot deal generally. Would the Deputy please get back to Resolution No. 7?

Mr. Kelly

With respect, the Chair is trying to confine this debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is only doing what Standing Orders have laid down. Each resolution must stand on its own terms and be discussed accordingly.

Mr. Kelly

It will not be contested that the achievement of a reasonable wage settlement, not just this year but every year, is central to any kind of ordered economic progress. I am hearing that preached by my own side; I am hearing that preached by the other side; and I have not the least doubt that if Sinn Féin, Gardiner Place, were in power in the morning, it would not be too many months before they would be preaching it too. The reasons are very simple and rest on the most primitive and obvious of economic realities. There is one way of making sure that we do not get a reasonable wage round and that is by over-burdening people, by doing something provocative and unbearable and, in particular, by doing it unjustly, by letting off one section who are able to go off and develop winter tans and grinding down the other section. That is a sure way of making certain that we do not get a reasonable wage settlement. I do not say that there is any inequity or any unfair spreading of the load in this hydrocarbon duty. It is going to weigh heavily on all sections. It will weigh particularly heavily on the PAYE earner living in the country. A car is not a luxury to such a person, and filling the tank with petrol is a serious matter. This will figure in the wage demands that will come before the Government shortly.

What we are seeing in the 20 per cent rise in petrol prices is an element fed into the inflationary machine; and this will mean a range of price increase applications by firms whose costs have been put up substantially. Also, it will mean an additional element in the consumer price index and it will be reflected in the wage demands this year. If the Government can restore the order which the National Coalition achieved in this sphere they will have carried out a major job. If the Taoiseach succeeds in getting back even half-way to the order achieved by the National Coalition he will have done something that will make me revise my low opinion of him. The Government are going the wrong way about it it but it is totally in line with the character of that party and I shall have more to say about that during the next day or two in a general debate on the matter.

An increase of this kind might have been all right given certain conditions. Looking at our trade and our oil import figures I can see the sense in saying we must cut them down, that if we cannot do it one way we must do it another way. If a rationing system is considered too cumbersome, costly or unreliable or is likely to give rise to too many abuses, I can see a certain kind of a sense in raising the price in order to achieve a reduction. I would not be against such a policy; but it would have to be part of an overall energy policy and, as yet, there is absolutely no sign of this. This is not an energy policy, and I sincerely hope it will not be represented in the budget debate as being an energy policy. This is the Government's way of covering the tatters in the financial clothes that are almost falling off the Government. It is a fiscal rag drawn over them. It has absolutely no relation to an integrated energy policy and it should not be represented as that.

It might be defensible if there were a proper road system in this country. A gallon of petrol will take a person here a shorter distance than in any other country in the EEC. Occasionally I have to travel out of Dublin and I have been astonished at the state of the roads in the past few months. They are broken and pitted. They would be insulting to the Bulgarians; our roads are far beneath their standards. Three weeks ago I drove to Ratoath and I wondered if I would have to be dug out of the road before I got there. That is only 12 miles from Dublin. Yet, these are the roads on which driving is to be made more expensive.

Mr. Flynn

The Deputy should take his holiday in the west of Ireland.

Mr. Kelly

I do that also. I hear bad reports from the Deputy's part of the country.

Mr. Flynn

That is because of the cutback in funds for roads during the term of office of the National Coalition.

Mr. Kelly

The Deputy should get somebody to send a car for him to go back to the west and look after the roads. The national importance of the private motorist who is held up going to a funeral, as I was, is very slight—in fact, it is of no national importance. However, for years industry has been saying that the state of our roads adds substantially to their costs and this is one of their priorities when they make applications for Government assistance.

If our roads allowed traffic to travel at a reasonable European level of speed perhaps one might not feel an increase like this, but the Confederation of Irish Industry say that goods moving on our roads travel at an average speed of 25 mph. They have worked out—and I take their figures for it—that it would cut their costs substantially if they could move goods at an average speed of 40 mph or a little more, as would be the norm in a continental country or in most parts of Britain.

I do not blame the geniuses over there. They cannot jump over their own shadow. They have the cross of their own political nature to bear, and they cannot do wonders overnight or, come to that, over 16 years. I do not blame them for not producing overnight a road system that would put us on a level with Belgium, Holland or Denmark. However, where the system is so bad and where it has fallen into a state of disrepair that I have never seen before, I say to them that it is the wrong time to put a duty on petrol which will increase the mileage cost of transport and which will hit instantly industry and the distributing business. It might be defensible if we had a proper public transport system. I do not know what the bus service is like in Deputy Flynn's constituency, but I can tell him that if it is comparable with what it is in my area he has double reason to get back there fast and do something about it.

Mr. Flynn

I will be like the Deputy's shadow for the next few years.

Mr. Kelly

I want to say something about the tourist industry that was wrecked during 1979, courtesy of Fianna Fáil. The fun of hounding Deputy O'Malley has gone for me. I have lost the will to hound him, for reasons that have nothing to do with the hydrocarbon duty. However, although I do not feel so badly disposed towards him, I have to say that he personally is to blame for the wrecking of, or the serious damage caused to the tourist industry in 1979——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is nothing in the resolution relating to what the Deputy is saying.

Mr. Kelly

If the Chair likes I will go home. I will sit down this instant. I am perfectly entitled to talk about the tourist industry and about the impact this duty will have on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is only entitled to talk about the terms of the resolution. The Chair is not imposing any new restrictions. There has been more discussion on these resolutions than ever there was in any budget.

Mr. Kelly

I respect the Chair but I will not take lectures from anyone in this House about holding up business.

Mr. Lenihan

The Chair is entitled to lecture.

Mr. Kelly

I sweated four and a half years as Government Whip and never was a Dáil so obstructed. There were never such long hours sat and there never were such days uselessly squandered on business by that party over there.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is only concerned with the present.

Mr. Kelly

In those days you were only concerned with co-operating in that obstruction. You were not in the Chair then, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is concerned only with order now and the Chair will have order. If the Deputy wishes to attack the Chair in the manner in which he is doing——

Mr. Kelly

I am not attacking the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

——the Chair will have to take the necessary action to ensure that decorum is in some way——

Mr. Kelly

I am not attacking the Chair's present conduct at all. I am trying to recall to the Chair's memory the situation which the National Coalition Government faced in regard to the reckless squandering of Dáil time.

Mr. N. Andrews

Forget about the Coalition.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kelly

I do not want to hold the House up, and I am not going to speak much longer, but I am perfectly entitled to talk about the impact which this measure will have on the tourist business. I am not going too far out of the way in recalling what happened to the tourist business in 1979 in consequence of the mishandling of the petrol business by Deputy O'Malley and the Department over which he then presided. Personally, I do not entirely blame Deputy O'Malley because he was badly advised—indeed he was not advised at all. He did not have enough people who were oilmen or knew anything about the business. He thought he would strike a posture; and the Government and Deputy Haughey thought they could join in the praise and share the applause for striking the posture of "standing up to the multi-nationals". They are a long way from that now, with petrol going to be almost twice the cost that it was in April of last year, and the multi-nationals only laughing up their sleeves at them. Deputy Killilea is very quiet up there, laughing behind his paper handkerchief. What has he to say about that now? The multi-nationals were going to be whipped by little Dessie, but he did not succeed in whipping them. He would not pay the going rate, and so they did not sell him the petrol. The result was that bookings were lost by the thousand. Hotels closed down because of the ruin of the tourist season. We have now got the system under this resolution in which the tourist season for 1980 will go under again.

I have not looked very much at television this evening or listened to radio. I suppose I spent about half an hour at it, and I have not yet heard the tourist industry speak their minds about this. They may have done so, but I will be very surprised if they welcome an extra 20p a gallon on petrol. It is a very undifferentiated 20p. Strangely enough, there are countries in Europe—Italy for one—in the EEC, subject to the same rules as we are, that are able to make special rates for tourists. Why do we not do that? Why is that never thought of? I will tell you the reason. It is because the English do not do it. That is the real reason, and the Soldiers of Destiny over there who think they have not produced a budget until they have thrown in a paragraph of kitchen Irish about camáns are too much in the Paddy mould to strike out and do something for themselves. Because the English do not have special concessions on tourism it is more than good enough for us not to have them.

Mr. Flynn

There would be no shortage at all if you can get the best people——

Mr. Kelly

The tourist, even the ones we talk about in the Garden of Remembrance, "our own kith and kin", the "sundered brethren" whose future Deputy Haughey is going to dispose of along with Mrs. Thatcher without aye, yea or nay from them——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will refer to the Taoiseach as the Taoiseach, and he will please get back to the terms of the resolution.

Mr. Kelly

I have my own views about who is the real Taoiseach and I am entitled to hold them just as the people on the other side of the House were four years ago.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will refer to the Taoiseach as the Taoiseach.

Mr. N. Andrews

You have the same views in Opposition as you had in Government.

Mr. Kelly

The Garden of Remembrance speeches about the "sundered brethren" and about "the four green fields"——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is nothing in this resolution about that.

Mr. Kelly

Oh, yes, there is, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy is going to insist on speaking irrelevantly I must ask him to leave the House.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Kelly

"Hear, hear," that is all they are able to say.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. The Deputy is well aware that there is a General Resolution which will afford him the necessary opportunity.

Mr. Kelly

This resolution imposes 20p a gallon on hydrocarbons. I remember this House being held up for a whole day about not 17 resolutions but one resolution which imposed 15p and we would have been called fascists— Deputy Haughey called Deputy Cooney a fascist——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Kelly to refer to the Taoiseach as the Taoiseach. If he insists on not doing so I will have to take the necessary steps.

Mr. Kelly

Deputy Cooney was considered to be a fascist by elements on the far side of the House. I would like to imagine what would have been said about us if we had in any way closured, or if the Ceann Comhairle elected by the National Coalition majority had closured a debate on the imposition of 15p a gallon on hydrocarbons and oils. It would not have happened, and we did not do it.

I am not going to take this discussion farther afield. I am saying simply that 20p on the gallon is going to do very severe damage to our tourist industry. I am saying, as a corollary to that, that it doubles and strengthens the case to have a special disposition for tourists in regard to petrol concessions; and it quadruples the case when we consider our "sundered brethren" in the North of Ireland who are always trying to get down and get to know us, as though closer acquaintance with us would make them more anxious to accept unity under our flag. We try to lure them down here. Have we ever stopped to ask ourselves if we could give them petrol minus the duty element? Could that be done or would we have to go over to the English and ask them how to do such a thing or is it possible to do it at all?

That is the kind of Government we have. That is the "style" that has been built up by the papers in the publicity exercise in regard to the "style" that we are to expect now. If this budget is a sample of that style I do not want much more of it and I doubt if the people would either.

Some of these increases were inevitable, not perhaps in the dimensions in which they came. Some parts of them would have been reasonable and I do not complain as bitterly about them, but I do complain about this one. It is not part of an energy policy. I lose track of the Government Departments; they are whizzing around like atoms in a molecule. They change their titles so fast that I am never sure of them or of the office-holders.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kelly

I do not know sometimes whether they are Ministers or not.

Mr. W. O'Brien

The ventriloquist is popping in over there.

Mr. Kelly

The Department of Energy expected applause for having imposed heating standards in public buildings which were designed to keep——

An Ceann Comhairle

This has nothing to do with the resolution.

Mr. Kelly

It has, with respect.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is treating the Chair with the utmost contempt.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Chair is in a bad humour this evening.

Mr. Kelly

With respect, I am entitled to anticipate the argument that this is an energy-saving measure. Of course, it will have a disincentive effect on the consumption of oil and petrol. A measure like that makes sense only in the context of an integrated energy policy, and this Government have not produced that. Not only have they not produced it, but they have expected applause for measures which purportedly were intended to save energy, such as the reduction of heating in public buildings to a lower level than formerly. Every Member of this House knows that you do not have to go any further than Leinster House to know that that is being evaded and neglected contemptuously. Everybody knows that day in and day out we are sweltering in temperatures which are uncomfortable, they are so hot.

Mr. Flynn

Everyone knows that if you want a big blower——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Flynn should not interrupt.

Mr. Flynn

I apologise.

Mr. Kelly

A man whose skin has been hardened in the Deputy's constituency might not feel it like that, but it is like that over here. There was a time when all disorderly interruptions came from Deputy Killilea. He was the one they sent in when they wanted to do a bit of barracking, but his gob has been stopped, so we do not get it from him any longer.

Mr. O'Keeffe

He has been civilised by office.

Mr. Kelly

In a large nutshell these are the objections which I have to this resolution and why I will vote against it.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Will the Taoiseach tell me the intake now on a gallon of petrol and on a gallon of heating oil under Resolution No. 7?

The Taoiseach

For premium grade the post-budget price would be 150.3p and that is made up of 61.6p duty, 75.1p for the trade and 13.6p VAT. The 61.6p is 40.9 per cent, the trade is 50 per cent and VAT is 9.1 per cent. The excise duty added to the VAT is 75.2p and it is exactly 50 per cent.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

What is the heating oil?

The Taoiseach

A gallon of diesel, post-budget is 74p 7p duty and 67p for the trade. The cost of the oil itself is 67p, duty will be 7p, that is going from 2p to 7p.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

That is 7p VAT?

The Taoiseach

No, it is duty. There is no VAT on central heating oil. The duty is 2p at the moment and it will go up by 5p to 7p. The actual cost is 67p and the total is 74p.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Nobody could have anticipated an increase of the magnitude of 20p in the price of petrol under this resolution. During the week some of the Dublin papers reported leading bookmakers giving a 20-1 book on petrol going up by 10p or more and this reflects public opinion. Nobody anticipated an increase of 20p coming immediately after an increase of 10p which was imposed in the last few weeks.

The vast majority of families now use a motor car quite regularly and this proposed new price will undoubtedly restrict motoring or put it beyond the reach of the low income families. The motoring public is an important segment of the population, as was recognised by Fianna Fáil when they made a special appeal to the motoring public during the last election by saying that they would not take tax from a motorist, so as to encourage people to change Government. Could anybody who voted for Fianna Fáil in the June 1977 election anticipate this huge increase in this budget keeping in mind the reduction in the car tax? That carrot was dangled before the public in May and June of 1977 and unfortunately a large number of the general public were gullible enough to swallow the carrot and vote for Fianna Fáil. People using their cars daily could not resist a £50, £60 or £70 tax deduction. To fill a car with ten gallons of petrol a man must pay £7.52 directly to the State. I am sure the Taoiseach will be the first to admit that this is a severe imposition. The private motorist will undoubtedly complain vehemently at the exorbitant rate of duty imposed by this resolution.

In relation to business, it is necessary to use motor cars, lorries and to hire transport and the increased cost of petrol will undoubtedly be passed on to the consumer here. Neither the businessmen nor the companies will bear the brunt of this increase but the consumer will have to. As mentioned earlier by Deputy Kelly, this is bound to give rise to wage increase demands. The £ was shrinking but it will shrink even faster now because of this budget and it will undoubtedly affect incomes and will give rise to difficulties in the industrial field.

We cannot pass over this increase without referring to tourism. We are paying Bord Fáilte large sums of money to get people to visit us and they are sending agents all over the world. I do not know whether or not we are getting value for money from the board's activities, but it is not helpful that a gallon of petrol will cost more than £1.50.

I was not very conversant with duties on heating oil. In fact I thought there was little or no duty on it because so many households avail of oil to heat their homes. It is not fair to add to their burden. As the Taoiseach said, the cost is 74p a gallon as it is and that is a sizeable figure. It is women who look after household expenditure and it is not fair to ask them to pay an additional 5p on each gallon of home heating oil.

I am very disappointed and I am sure my disappointment is shared by every member of my party as well as by our supporters throughout the country and the public generally. I have not the slightest doubt that many people who supported Fianna Fáil in the last general election have a different opinion of the Government as a result of this imposition. The timing is most inopportune in view of the many increases in petrol prices during past weeks and months. It is out of place for the Taoiseach and the Government to ask the motorist for a further 20p on a gallon of petrol and to ask business people to dive into their pockets for a similar amount which, as everyone knows, will be passed on to the consuming public. I entirely disagree with this resolution.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Government have nothing if not a particularly hard neck in imposing this tax on petrol. One of the principal planks in the election manifesto of 1977 was the undertaking to reduce the cost of motoring by removing road tax on all cars up to 16 horse power. Immediately this now historic document was unveiled people said that there would be a tax on petrol which would be more expensive than road tax. Fianna Fáil responded by sending out the respected man who was then Taoiseach and put him on record as giving a solemn undertaking that petrol would not be taxed. We know that the removal of tax on cars cost the Government between £30 million and £40 million and we now have today's performance which replaces that tax with a tax which will collect about £113 million from the motorist. How can the Taoiseach sit there and stand over that performance? He can laugh but he availed of the votes gained by that piece of trickery and availed of his ministry as a stepping stone to his present office.

The Taoiseach

I am smiling at the picture of myself sitting here and standing for something.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Taoiseach will be caught out if that is the way he wishes to treat the reneging of a solemn promise given at the last election and treat the House and the country in that light way. They gave away something like £30 million and now they are taking back £100 million. That is not the end of it because car tax is on its way back. In the first budget after the manifesto they introduced a registration fee of £5 per car—they did not call it a tax. That is now being increased to £10 per car. This is a shameful performance and one of which the Taoiseach should be thoroughly ashamed. I am sure the former Taoiseach feels humiliated. I can think of no other word for it.

We had a lecture today from the Minister for Finance in introducing the budget. He told us that a lot of our troubles are due to the cost of oil which, he would lead us to believe, came as a surprise, although of course he knew about the price increases which had occurred in 1974. If they had been keeping in touch with what was happening in the world when they were drafting the manifesto they should have known the situation. They took a gamble and it did not come off.

In the course of his speech the Minister for Finance said:

When the world economy is faced with a marked downturn, we as an exporting country dependent on foreign markets to absorb half of our production are pulled in the same direction.

He went on to talk about new factories established last year and how successful the IDA have been in attracting industrialists. He stated:

These new and established industries should ensure that industrial exports will increase, even in the face of tough international competition, provided we can keep costs in check.

Later in his speech the Minister announced the imposition of a tax of 20p per gallon on petrol, which will drive up costs, and imposed a charge of 5p per gallon on other crude oils which are not used on their own. Both these increases are calculated to drive up our costs and make us less competitive in the face of tough international competition.

One would think that different people wrote different parts of this speech and that the Minister had not co-ordinated it. That is a crazy outlook. The Minister has boasted that he has given income tax payers some relief.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a speech on the General Resolution. I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy's line of thought but he must keep to the terms of the resolution before the House. Strict adherence to the resolution has always been observed, irrespective of what any Deputy may say.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): We will hear a lot in days to come about the boast of the Minister for Finance that he gave concessions amounting to more than £100 million to taxpayers. I accept he has done that but he has taken back as much in other taxes. He has increased the tax on cars and the amount of the excise duty. Surely it is unreasonable to take so much tax from one section of the community.

The Taoiseach has told us that part of our trouble relates to our balance of payments situation but the effect of these taxes on motorists will be to increase our balance of payments deficit, make us less competitive in world markets and make it more difficult for our manufacturers to sell goods abroad. The increases are bound to lead to a demand for more wages and that demand cannot be resisted. I have a better right than most Deputies to be annoyed at the extent of the increase in the cost of petrol because in my constituency, Cavan-Monaghan, we do not have a mile of railway line. We have been stripped of our railways and our people who depend entirely on their own transport must now try to cope with this brutal increase. Is that reasonable? To the increase in the price of petrol one must add the huge increase in the cost of repairs and there is a greater need to repair cars because of the deplorable condition of our roads. There can be no doubt but that people will demand compensation for the extra burdens the increase in the price of petrol will place on them.

I should like to know if the increase of 5p per gallon for certain oil will have to be paid by the ESB. If the ESB must pay that increase there is no doubt that they will pass it on to the consumers because, according to the statute under which they operate, they must pay their way. The result is that consumers who have already had to bear a 20 per cent increase in ESB charges this year must face another increase. This is a crazy race, it is like a dog chasing his tail. It is not the way to improve the country's financial position. The Taoiseach has given the impression that he is the man to get the country's finances right but there is no doubt that the taxes increased today will start another crazy cycle.

I am particularly interested in tourism, one of our more profitable industries. As has been pointed out we are inaugurating new car ferry services between this country and the UK and France but we are taxing our visitors to the hilt as soon as they reach our shores. We are discouraging them by brutal increases in the cost of petrol and other commodities. The increase in the price of petrol cannot be regarded as a gambler's throw because we are in a situation where we cannot win. At least Deputy O'Donoghue gambled that there would be world growth and no increase in the price of oil. He could have won his gamble if we did not have to face an increase in the price of oil but we are now in a situation in which we cannot win, we are bound to lose. We are damaging our industrial sector and our tourist industry. This increase is one of the craziest that has yet been introduced.

Mr. J. Ryan

In the course of his first address to the nation following his appointment the Taoiseach emphasised the need for national concern. He told us to work together for the future of our people and that there was a need for a united effort. He also told us that we were facing hard times and that if Ireland was to survive we would all have to work as a team. I welcomed that speech because I felt we were facing a difficult year. It was my belief that to survive we had to work together. The Taoiseach also emphasised the need for industrial peace.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is starting on very general terms. I want him to confine his remarks to the terms of the resolution.

Mr. J. Ryan

The Taoiseach's most emphatic plea was for a reasonable approach to the impending national understanding. I want to protest on behalf of the thousands of workers who commute daily to their places of employment who will suffer a severe blow as a result of the substantial increase in the price of petrol. Where is the Taoiseach's national concern in that huge increase? What example is he, or the Government, setting for the rest of our people? The increase will mean that workers in my area will have to pay an extra £3 per week to get to work. One must bear that figure in mind—it amounts to £150 per year—when one considers the amount of £220 under the new tax system given to a husband and wife. In that context the net increase will be £70 per year, a little more than £1 per week.

What will be the impact of this increase on the CPI which, also, is a matter of concern to the workers? At the end of 1979 inflation was of the order of 17 per cent and I expect that before long it will be of the order of 20 per cent. The effects of the oil price increases imposed by the Arabs have not yet permeated through the economy. In such circumstances how can the Taoiseach expect a reasonable national understanding to be reached? Today we have witnessed a piratical act against the workers.

I recall that during the Coalition's term in office when there was imposed an increase of 15p per gallon in the price of petrol, many members of the then Opposition referred to the Government of the day as Irish Arabs. Having regard to statements made by certain Ministers last week and to the price increases outlined in the budget today, one may well ask what type of Arabs are on the Government side now? One must associate this savage increase in the price of petrol with a road network that I have described elsewhere as a network of duckponds. The local authorities are in the very difficult situation of facing a year of serious financial stringency.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the resolution. The Chair is not restricting this debate for any ulterior motive but because there will be a General Resolution before the House when the Deputy will have unlimited time to discuss in detail all matters pertaining to the budget. When financial resolutions are brought before the House it is not the practice to have long drawn-out debates. Discussion must be strictly in accordance with the terms of the resolution.

Mr. J. Ryan

I would only make the point that if the motorist is being asked to day to pay an extra 20p on the gallon of petrol, surely he is entitled to a better road network than that which exists. I am concerned mainly for those people who must commute daily from their homes to their places of work and for whom cars are a necessity.

Mr. White

If I were a journalist I expect that the slogan I would use in my newspaper in the morning would be "back to the horse and trap". The Taoiseach has been generous in regard to the distribution of toothbrushes but we are not likely to have any offers from him of the horses that we will need to transport us after this savage increase in the price of petrol. This increase of 20p on the gallon of petrol must be considered in conjunction with the increase of 10p a gallon in the price of this commodity imposed during the past couple of weeks and which brings the total increase to 30p, representing £1.52 per gallon. Twelve months ago the price of petrol was half that amount.

We hear from the Government side about efforts to bring the two parts of Ireland together but the Taoiseach must know the substantial differences between the price of cars and of petrol as between both parts of the island. For instance, the difference in the price of a car as between the two parts of the island is in the region of £1,500. Now, there will be a difference of 33p per gallon in the price of petrol as between the two areas. This difference represents 25 per cent of the total cost of a gallon of petrol. Anybody who finds it necessary to travel substantial distances will realise the kind of petrol bill that he will be faced with from now on. I have estimated that for somebody travelling 1,000 miles per week the petrol bill alone will be in the region of £60 per week. As a representative from the AA said this evening during a radio programme, there has never before been such a savage increase so far as the motorist is concerned. This increase has come as a bombshell.

Not only has there been this increase in the price of petrol but there is a doubling of the car registration fee or, in other words, in the tax on cars. Only two-and-a-half years ago the people now in Government were promising the motorist cheaper motoring. It is estimated that one in every five people in the country has a car. In those places referred to by Deputy Fitzpatrick and in such places also as Donegal, north Sligo and north Leitrim, people depend for travel either on a horse and cart or on a car but these people are being discriminated against. I wonder whether the Taoiseach realises the hardship that will be imposed on those people. There is no rail service in these areas so that the people who live there will be the ones to be hit hardest by these increases. For practically every household in rural Ireland a car is a necessity. A couple of weeks ago we were told that the road grants were to be cut by half. Here again there is a tactic of another kind to hit the motor trade.

The Minister for Finance told us today that the increase of 5p in the gallon of diesel will not apply to CIE but would the Minister not agree that in this regard a concession should be made to hauliers in the west and the north-west of the country? What about those private bus owners who operate in areas where there is no public transport? Surely these people, too, will be deserving of a concession of the order of that being granted to CIE.

I have estimated that for a haulier driving a lorry from Donegal to Dublin and back, the increase in the cost of petrol will mean an extra £15 for the journey. What is the point in talking about inflation in the light of this massive increase? Those people who will be hit hardest by the increases are those who happen to live in the underprivileged parts of the country. There cannot be any justification for such a situation and that is why I suggest that people operating small business in such places should be given the same concessions as are being given to CIE. I am not against CIE being granted these concessions but where they do not operate the same subsidy should be made available to private bus owners and hauliers.

Finally, I wish to say a few words about the tourist industry. I wonder what Bord Fáilte will have to say about this increase in the price of petrol, an increase that will hit very hard at the tourist trade. I wonder what the hotels federation will have to say when they realise how unattractive it will be from now on for a tourist to bring a car to this country. Anybody coming from Britain, for example, must realise that he will be paying a difference of 33p in the price of every gallon of petrol he buys while here.

I estimated that anybody from Britain who travels 2,000 miles to look at the Irish scenery will have to pay an extra £25. Somebody said that last year the tourist trade was on its knees because of the petrol shortage but what encouragement are we giving to tourists to come here and fill our hotels which are half empty in the summer? These people cannot afford this extra money. This Government have not considered the tourist trade, the hoteliers, the guesthouses or the extra money the motorists will have to pay. I have no doubt that Charlie will not be their darling for too long after this savage increase comes into effect.

Mr. O'Toole

In his statement referring to indirect taxation the Minister said he was pursuing the general social orientation in his proposals of concentrating his indirect taxation on discretionary expenditure as far as possible. This is a very laudable aspiration. Then he went on to make an excuse for singling out petrol and called it an expenditure which could be regarded as less discretionary.

There are many provisions in today's statement which are unacceptable, unreasonable, irresponsible, irrational, illogical, and I could go on, but the most unacceptable, irrational and illogical of all is this provision. The reason it is all these things above any other provision is that it is dishonest. That kind of charge deserved some kind of explanation and the explanation is very simple. Fianna Fáil, two-and-a-half years ago as an election gimmick, decided to abolish car tax. In doing so the loss of revenue to the Exchequer at that time was calculated to be something in the region of £28 million for a full year. That means that in two-an-a-half years, at 1977 costs, revenue lost to the Exchequer would have amounted to something in the region of £70 million. In one fell swoop that same party who abolished car tax for very blatant political reasons have taken back one-and-a-half times that loss with the stroke of a pen by adding 20p per gallon to petrol.

The reason I make the charge that this is dishonest is that they failed to say they are taxing cars again through taxing petrol. That is what they are doing but they do not have the decency to say so. This particular tax, by any stretch of the imagination, is very large. From the figures given by the Taoiseach earlier tonight a quick calculation tells me that the duty increase in petrol comes to about 75 per cent of what was there before. The duty increase in "other oils"—the term used in the Minister's statement—which includes all other oils, comes to a massive 250 per cent, from 2p to 5p per gallon.

Are we living in a banana republic when we can stand up and propose this kind of imposition on a public which is already reeling from increases over the past few weeks in this same commodity? We are proposing an increase of 250 per cent in one commodity and 75 per cent in another. Because of its magnitude, the 20p on petrol is the one being talked about more than the other imposition on other oils, but 5p on a gallon of oil is, by any stretch of the imagination, a huge increase but relative to what we are facing on petrol it looks small. Let me tell the Taoiseach, the Government and Fianna Fáil Deputies that that 5p on other oils could have, and possibly will have unfortunately, disastrous effects on our economic future.

I do not wish to be repetitive but tourism is one area on which this resolution will have an adverse effect, from the point of view of increased hotel costs. I am speaking now specifically of the 5p per gallon on other oils, heating oil particularly, in the case of tourism. In one hotel in this town tonight I was told it would mean for them an extra £225 per month. To stay in business that must be passed on to the customer.

I come from an area where we have to travel very long distances. In his statement the Minister advised us on the advantages of car pooling and the use of public transport. That is fine in the ideal situation where people are not dispersed over a wide area and where there is public transport to avail of. It is completely unrealistic to make these stupid suggestions about car pooling and public transport in Mayo. The same applies to the west coast and rural areas in general. We do not have the kind of service that is suitable to workers who must commute.

I live within five miles of a large new industry. Many of those employees travel 25 and 30 miles to and from work. To such an employee we are talking about £2 or £3 extra per week for petrol. These people must travel over very bad roads, roads of a worsening condition, and their maintenance charges will increase over a short period. In a very short time the person faced with that reality—and it is a reality—when advising his or her union of the type of claim to be entered under a national understanding, if there is ever such a thing again, will have to take this into account. It is a direct extra cost on that person's purse. And that is only one of the costs.

The 20p per gallon will affect tourism and the commuter. The most amusing aspect is that we are told by the Minister that bus fares will not be increased because CIE will be recouped. Big deal—recouped by whom and with whose money? It will be recouped by the people's money because that money must be replaced by the people from whom it is being taken in a crazy roundabout way.

Statements are being made to mislead what I would have regarded some time ago as an unsuspecting public. They are not unsuspecting any longer and they will be even more suspicious after this. Last year it took nine months for the terms of the budget to sink in, but the effects of this resolution will be drastic and therefore immediate. They will be felt across the board by employer and employee alike.

The 5p extra per gallon will be felt by the ESB. They must carry this extra cost and by law they must pass it to the consumer. Industry must carry it and for survival sake they must pass it on to the consumer, in other words, their workers. The result is that we will have inflated wage demands in the near future.

Some months ago I recall the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Tourism, speaking on a motion concerning the price of petrol, saying that the European Energy Commission had met in Paris and a suggestion had come from them that the only way to conserve energy, oil in particular, was to price it out of the market: if you price it high enough the people will not and cannot purchase it. I wonder if the Minister for Finance has been reading that report and if he is accepting that advice as being proper. Such advice is fine for the person who uses his car for private entertainment, driving from A to B: it is grand to price him out of the market because he is wasting a very important asset which cannot be replaced.

But I should like to know what percentage of all car users can be put into that category. I suggest it is very small. There has been a witch hunt to get after wasters, to hound them out, not to let them waste energy. In order to get at that small percentage of the consuming public, however, here we are penalising people who have no discretion in the matter, the man who must go to work, the man who must haul goods, the manager who must get to his factory or the hotel man who must use his car to try to encourage guests to use his hotel. They are the people we are really hurting, and in so doing we are damaging the economy and doing a disservice to the country.

I have been told that the increases outlined in Resolution No. 7 will add between 2½ per cent and 3 per cent to the consumer price index. I do not know how realistic that is, but I hope for the sake of the country that it is less. If this means a 2½ per cent increase in the price of one commodity, brought about by the action of the Government, it is nothing short of disgraceful.

We have listened to, and accepted as being reasonable to some degree, the suggestion that part of our problems in the recent past has been caused by factors over which this or any Government could not have control. We accept that still, despite the fact that when the present Government were over here they were very slow to accept the same theory. As reasonable people we accept that the increased cost of imported oil has a definite bearing on the state of our economy, but here we have this self-destructive attitude just to raise £113 million as quickly as possible, and there can be no evasion, no avoidance: you just pay your money and take your pick.

The Government have neither the guts nor the honesty to call this what it is: an imposition of car tax by other means. That is what I find most objectionable about this resolution: it reimposes car tax in a much more severe way because by the stroke of a pen it restores the car tax revenue one-and-a-half times over. Added to that, the car registration fee has been doubled.

The effects which will flow from this kind of imposition are beyond my imagination. I can foresee some of the problems that will arise. Deputy Kelly referred to the CII, who have done such a great job in the past 12 months to increase exports and hold their foreign markets. This imposition will have a blunting effect on their competitiveness abroad.

We have an open economy without control over imports from our EEC colleagues, but by this self-destructive imposition of tax at this time, when the industries we have been trying to protect are so vulnerable, we are putting the knife into the back of these industries.

There are people in this country sufficiently naive to believe that we have an energy-conscious Government. If pricing a commodity out of the market is the road to ensuring that one just does not use something, and in so doing one cuts down on its use, this is the way to do it. I accept that as being logical. What I do not accept is that it is the right thing to do because we need that commodity and unless we can get it at a reasonable price we must fold up and throw in the towel. I object strenuously to the imposition of this tax for the reasons I have given: that it will have very adverse effects on our economy and because it is dishonest.

Mr. Hegarty

I should like to add my voice to that of my colleagues on this resolution. As spokesman on Tourism, I feel it my duty to speak out against this imposition.

As was pointed out by Deputy White we in this country, from the point of view of tourism, are now in a situation in which our petrol costs will be 30p more than those of Northern Ireland or Great Britain. We are really dependent on our natural charm to attract tourists. Tourists were attracted here because on a cost basis it was thought that we were cheaper than anywhere else. That is no longer the case. Tourists will have to pay through the nose to come here. Were some of this revenue to be spent on a massive capital expenditure programme on our roads it might not be so bad but nowhere do I see any indication that any of this revenue will be spent on improving the deplorable condition of our roads. Indeed, I have said already this evening that by the time the tourist season begins our roads will probably be impassible.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is no way in which the Deputy can debate roads on this resolution.

Mr. L'Estrange

Well, our roads are nearly gone, Sir.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That may be so, but they will not go any further on this resolution, which deals with excise duty on hydrocarbons and nothing else.

Mr. Hegarty

The word "discretion" has been used quite a lot. We are talking now about a discretionary point. Certainly where most motorists and petroleum is concerned there is no discretion. The ordinary worker in my area, the PAYE payer, who has to travel some 20 or 30 miles to and from his place of work has no discretion. There is no point in suggesting that he pool with his neighbour because invariably they will be in different jobs working different shifts. This suggestion might appear to be ideal but does not work in practice. Therefore, straightaway there is initiated another massive inflationary round with huge demands for wage and salary increases.

Let us take the example of ordinary farming costs. It may not be fully realised by the Taoiseach that the rise in farm costs will be very substantial. Of their very nature farm tractors are heavy consumers of oil. Therefore the farmer's oil bill constitutes a substantial proportion of his costs. Indeed, this is an additional imposition of 5p on top of the 10p imposed only the other day. The Minister said somewhere in his speech that it was time something was done about taxing fuels. Since this Government came into power we have had a tax imposed on fuel every day of the week. This latest increase is particularly invidious at a time when farm prices appear to be stationary if not below what they were. Viewing the whole spectrum of agriculture, on which industry is based, it means the imposition of massive increases.

Very little reference was made to road diesel, but again in the case of farm costs road diesel will constitute a very significant part when one thinks of the haulage of sugar beet distances of between 60 and 80 miles. One must question what road hauliers will charge for the haulage of sugar beet in the coming year, what they will charge for the haulage of grain. Indeed, one might well ask what it will cost to co-operative societies to haul all their milk with this latest 20p imposition. Here again we are speaking about vehicles which of their very nature consume a lot of diesel. In this respect the Government have done a big disservice to the agricultural sector and its repercussions will be very serious for the country as a whole. It can be seen that many co-operative societies are already in trouble. One of the big problems we must face is competition in the European market place. Therefore I contend that, with one stroke of the pen today, the Government have done more damage to Irish exports abroad than if they were a competitor from a third country undercutting us on that market. Straightaway they have put Irish agriculture in jeopardy.

I would hope that this massive increase would be reconsidered and that relief would be afforded the most vulnerable areas. I am very fearful that 20p a gallon on road diesel will have a detrimental effect on our economy, especially the farming sector. In turn, this will mean dearer food for the consumer. Unless the farmers go bankrupt, they will have to charge more; their charges will have to be passed on. Commodities such as butter, meat, sugar beet and so on will be more expensive because all of these increased costs must be passed on. But with regard to exports, dairy products, processed foods and so on, one is talking already about very tight competition when we will be pricing ourselves out of the market place. Were the Ayatollah doing it, then we would have some sympathy for the Government, but when the Government themselves are doing it then they are telling our people: "You are no longer in the market place" because that is what this imposition means.

Mr. Kavanagh

Listening to this debate I feel something must be said by a Deputy representing a county like mine, near the city of Dublin, whose population has increased since the last census by approximately one-third. That increase has resulted from new housing which has developed in the north and west Wicklow. Many people from Dublin have been attracted into that county, possibly because of the environmental improvement which attracts people who have traditionally lived in an over-populated area such as the city centre. Many people bought houses there because they understood, particularly after the change of Government, that car tax was being removed and that the Government were providing cheap motoring. I am protesting on behalf of workers who made that decision in good faith and believed that this Government had their interests at heart in reducing the cost of motoring in their first budget and through their manifesto which brought them into Government.

Wicklow has benefited from its new residents. However, because of this budget and the reimposition of motor tax by way of the 20p increase on the price of petrol those people are badly let down. They supported the Government in 1977. This budget has been regarded as a discretionary one. However, the taxation impositions are not discretionary for the many commuters who travel from Wicklow to their jobs in Dublin.

We have a rail system that runs down the east coast but there are a limited number of trains. It is more useful to people in Bray because they are inside the metropolitan area. When one travels on the roads one sees buses with the seats outside to indicate that they have broken down. People know that they cannot depend on public transport at present to ensure that they arrive at their place of employment on time.

I am making the point on behalf of the people who made a commitment to live in Wicklow. They have been badly let down and cannot claw back any money. They must buy fuel whatever the cost. This item demonstrates how far the Government have got away from the committment to attack inflation. Surely the items we have voted on have added more than 2 per cent to the cost of living index. It has been suggested that this will add an additional 2 per cent to that index. One would have expected the Government to be tackling inflation. So far out of the seven items we have debated, this has added on a huge amount to the inflationary spiral that will be reflected in applications to the Prices Commission for increases. Many workers use their cars to go to work and those who do not, use public transport. These costs will also go up. This budget is a dangerous one and this item has fuelled the inflationary spiral as no other imposition has for many years.

Mr. W. O'Brien

We all agree that motoring has been expensive for the past number of years. Prior to this increase the person travelling to work has had difficulties. I have experience of people travelling from Newcastle West to Shannon Airport in second-hand cars over bad roads. The roads in my county could not be worse. It is dangerous at present to drive a car on some Limerick roads. That is not the worst point. What happens is that a car gets damaged and constituents approach me and ask how they go about making a claim against a county council for repairs to the car. There is no way they can get compensation once the council have half started a job but have not finished it. At present if one leaves a car into a garage no matter how small the job one is talking in terms of £40 or £50. That is too much for a man with a family. I know people who have come together and travel in the same car. I had an unpleasant experience where the car they were using was damaged and they were unable to pay the garage for repairs to it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The cost of repairs to cars does not arise.

Mr. W. O'Brien

It comes under expenses——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to obey the Chair. There is no way the cost of repairs to cars can be discussed on this resolution. It only deals with excise duty on hydrocarbons and nothing else.

Mr. W. O'Brien

I was trying to point out how costly motoring is at present. The price of petrol now puts motoring beyond the pocket of the working man. I know of cases where people left their employment because it was unprofitable for them to take their cars to work. They were unable to get new cars. We all understand how difficult it is to keep a secondhand car. There is no way we can avoid further expense.

I am disappointed with that aspect of the budget. I have no sympathy with the man who takes out his car at the weekend to see the scenery. He is able to afford to do that. I am interested in the man who is trying to get to work. I remember listening to a Fianna Fáil man who said that unless there was a change of Government in 1979, at that stage petrol would be £1 a gallon. How right he was. It costs £1.52 today. That is a hefty jump. We have hit workers a very bad blow. The farming community will also suffer. It is a bad day for all workers in spite of the fact that an effort was made today to give the impression that everyone got something. The people I have referred to are unnecessarily penalised because not alone have they to pay for dearer petrol but as a result of Government policy they have only bad roads to drive on. I should like to ask the Minister to reconsider and accept that he has made one of the worst decisions in his history by increasing petrol by 20p.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair feels obliged at this stage to remind the House that there is agreement to finish the resolutions by midnight.

Dr. Byrne

Did I not offer to speak?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will call Deputy Byrne after Deputy D'Arcy. We take front-benchers first. I do not know if we should or not but that is the way we do it.

Mr. D'Arcy

I will not detain the House but it is only right that those of us coming from a rural community should have our say on this measure. People genuinely expected that the change in the set-up of Fianna Fáil might bring about some welcome improvements. However, let me say, as a rural Deputy, that this measure is a vicious attack on our rural population. We heard the Minister today saying that a certain discretion could be exercised as a result of these measures by people using oil and petrol. What discretion have the people in the remote areas of Wexford, as far as utilisation of cars is concerned? What discretion have people who want to go to the local church, or to Mass? How shortsighted can people be? They just look outside the gates of Dáil Éireann at the streets of Dublin or they look at the streets of Limerick, or Tipperary and expect people to use public transport. The only public transport in Wexford is from Wexford to Enniscorthy, to New Ross and to Dublin. This is of little value to the people living in The Hook or in other remote areas of Wexford.

The Taoiseach

I presume the Deputy is not telling that to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. D'Arcy

I am not telling the Leas-Cheann Comhairle because he understands. Unfortunately, the Taoiseach does not understand.

The Taoiseach

I do know.

Mr. D'Arcy

The Taoiseach is in the happy position of living in Dublin and so is not capable of understanding.

The Taoiseach

Unfortunately, I know that road all too well.

Mr. D'Arcy

Your Minister used the word "discretion". I should like to ask——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Through the Chair, please Deputy.

Mr. D'Arcy

I was interrupted by the Taoiseach and want to remind him that he is in the happy position of living in a lovely constituency in Dublin city——

The Taoiseach

The best spot.

Mr. D'Arcy

——where everybody can use public transport. I live in a remote area of Wexford where nobody can use public transport. The Minister talked about discretion. We have no discretion at all in these matters. We must have cars in our yards to bring us to the church, to town and to the Dáil. The Taoiseach can hop up on his bus and come here. Those are the facts. The 20p on petrol will have a tremendous effect on the overall situation of the people in a rural constituency, but the most damaging effect on the cost of transport, whether it be transport to the beet factory, to the fair, to the mart, or anywhere else will be the 5p on diesel oil. We, at the moment, as the Taoiseach very well knows, have a very costly transport system and one of the main reasons for that is the condition of our roads. I am not going to get into a debate about roads, but if this money were being spent on roads I would forgive the Taoiseach but this is general taxation. The 5p on the price of diesel oil will have a very damaging effect on the delivery of agricultural produce to the factories, the marts and elsewhere.

I promised to be short and I shall be short. This measure is extremely disappointing and will have serious consequences, whether the Taoiseach likes it or not, or whether he is trying to make himself believe that it will not. It will also bring tremendous demands from our wage earners because they must get to their work in their cars. They cannot hop on public transport in Wexford, which is one rural constituency and there are dozens of rural constituencies. People had reached the stage, due to the economic progress of the country, where they had got a car. To put 20p a gallon on petrol, the price at present being £1.31 per gallon and make it £1.51 is the last straw. As the Taoiseach knows it is the last straw that breaks the camel's back.

Dr. Byrne

I am very grateful to be called upon at this late hour to speak on the subject of Resolution No. 7. I have great reservations about this taxation which will have unfortunate effects throughout our society, in that it will increase the cost of living immediately, effectively, and in each and every household. Its effect in the city area may not be that immediate as that in rural areas where many people at the moment pool transport in order to travel to work. However, it is particularly about urban areas that I speak. This taxation will increase the cost of taxi fares for people using this mode of conveyance. It will increase immediately the cost of private travel by almost one-sixth, as regards fuel consumption. It is a massive increase which is going to affect travel by private cars, motor bikes, and many associated forms of transport and delivery. It will increase ambulance costs. The taxation on oil will increase the cost of heating hospitals, schools, Government buildings and administrative offices throughout the country. This overall increase in administrative cost will not be justified by what will be collected on this tax.

There are two aspects. One could cut down on the consumption of oil and oil products. However, we know from our days in the Government of the Coalition that this amounted to a very small percentage of oil consumption. Petroleum amounted to approximately 7 per cent of the total consumption. Is the cost of milk deliveries going to go up, or the cost of basic foods, such as bread, to the underprivileged families in the city? Already we have the spectre where families have to pay a delivery charge for milk, which never happened here before. Will this charge be increased indirectly because of the increased taxation on petrol?

Twenty pence is what we used to call four shillings. I doubt very much that the Minister for Finance, or the Taoiseach, ever thought that they would see the day in this House where the price of petrol per gallon would be increased by four old shillings. Those Deputies who came into the House approximately 11 years ago could buy an awful lot for four shillings then. Not only could they buy over a gallon of petrol but they would have enough change, perhaps, to buy a couple of beers in the bar. That is not the case now.

This increase will lead to a situation of diminishing returns. People will become fed up with the cost of petrol and of running a private car, with overall expenses, such as insurance. Taxation is not very much on a car but there are the costs of repairs and so on. As well as running a car on petrol, you have to buy oil, gearbox oil, oil for the brakes and the cost of these oils is going up. The cost of running a car will go up a lot more than the 20p which the Minister is imposing on petrol.

Will the oil for fishing boats go up by 5p per gallon? The fishermen say that they cannot afford the cost of oil at present. Will it cost more to land fish around the coast? Will it cost more for the farmer to bring in his harvest, which would result in an increase in the cost of producing wheat for bread and the further cost of the price of petrol to have the bread delivered? Will the cost of living rise by a massive amount over and above the 20 per cent predicted here by some Deputies earlier on? I venture to say that it will. Fuel is necessary to effect delivery of essential goods throughout urban areas and the cost of the basic commodities will increase, perhaps drastically, over the next year by between 20 and 30 per cent. I refer to a few figures which I have here. If one wants a medical doctor to call to one's house, the cost, under this budget, is increased by almost 20 per cent, for just one simple commodity, petrol. Whatever about its effect in the city, this will certainly affect medical services in the country where there is a fee per item for travel and where many doctors can travel distances well over 15 miles to their patients. This is one immediate effect which will go through the health boards and which will once again increase the cost of living. We have seen there is to be a 10 per cent reduction in the overall health estimate. Where will the money come from? Is there to be a big diminution of efficiency in the service throughout the country? Reluctantly, I think there will be.

I think a vital point has been missed in contributions earlier and it is that while there may have been some consideration given to the PAYE workers, I say it is not much of a change in the PAYE system. Many people have protested—I do not know what they protested for—but here in this petrol taxation it is seen that people still have to pay tax whether they pay PAYE, or are self-employed or anything else. If the £113 million is taken off the PAYE contribution it is here replaced because 90 per cent or perhaps more of this £113 million might well be contributed by PAYE workers. So, there is no great relief for PAYE workers. There is only a relief for the PAYE worker who does not drive a car and who does not smoke or drink.

The Taoiseach

That sounds like a description of your good self.

Dr. Byrne

I do not want to talk about myself here but I am glad that the Taoiseach did refer so accurately to the qualities exhibited at the present time. Any further interruptions along those lines will be very gratefully received. I think the increase in the cost of living will be much higher than the 20 per cent predicted and more or less agreed to generally here.

One sad thing that has happened since the Minister's budget speech is that some very kind gentleman came into the House and deposited approximately 150 invitations to the Motor Show which is to be opened next week by the Minister for the Environment. I do not know where this man was during the Minister's speech and I do not know whether we will get into the show next week, whether our invitations will stand. I have heard that many people have invested in cars over the years and I believe now that cars valued at £5,000 are all being treated at a blanket £2,000 price; they cannot be sold because of recurring increases, both Government imposed and Government sanctioned. It will not be too long before we see the magic figures of 200p per gallon for petrol under the auspices of our present Minister. All I can say is that it will be a long time, with the cost of oil here, before we see the Government well oiled again.

Mr. Enright

Sheik Yamani and some of his colleagues have an international reputation for shaking up the whole western world which they well deserve but in fairness to the Minister for Finance he has really out-done them all. The different price increases for petrol and oil which have so much affected the whole western world have arrived at different times but no increase has been of the magnitude of that proposed by the Minister today. In May, petrol was increased by 11p per gallon; in August by 12p and on the 15th of this month by between 7p and 10p and, to crown it, the Minister imposes 20p taxation on the gallon of petrol today. This is the greatest increase ever in this country in motor taxation. It will affect every person in every walk of life. Every section of the community will be affected, industry, agriculture, tourism, right across the board.

I read with interest that part of the Minister's speech where he referred to a rebate for diesel oil used in buses on services scheduled in accordance with the relevant legislation which he said would be increased appropriately so that bus fares would not be affected. I do not know whether it will be the Minister or the Taoiseach who will be replying in a few moments but I would like to know what the position will be in regard to school transport. I want to know clearly how school transport will be affected, whether or not buses will be affected. I refer particularly to the private contractors, the people who are tendering to CIE for school contracts. If school contractors are to be hit with an increase of this nature it will be impossible for them, the members of PAMBO, to meet these increased costs. It could be an exorbitant increase for such people. To me, the Minister's speech does not clarify the position. I should like it to be clarified because I am sure there are hundreds of private bus owners who are anxiously awaiting that information. It is of the utmost importance to have this matter properly cleared up.

The Minister also spoke of a rebate to producers with glasshouses of a minimum area of a quarter-acre and mushroom growers with not less than 3,000 square feet of cultivation area and said they would be rebated 3p of the 5p increase. I am sure the Minister is aware that the pig industry is going through a particularly difficult period. An enormous number of pigs are being smuggled into the country. Has the Minister in mind any concessions such as a rebate for people in the pig industry who are going through a difficult time now? If we are not careful of our pig industry we will face a serious situation when people will be forced out of this industry. People in this industry are suffering great losses. The effect of this increase will be devestating for them. I hope the Minister will think seriously about this industry.

What is the position with regard to the poultry industry. This hydrocarbon price increase will have a serious effect on people engaged in that industry. Tourism will also be affected by this increase, particularly people who bring their own cars into the country. An increase of 20p on a gallon of petrol will be a deterrent to people considering that type of holiday. I do not believe the Minister or any member of the Cabinet realise the devastating effect this increase will have for people in the tourist industry. Motor car sales have been seriously affected by a lot of matters besides petrol increases in which the Minister was not involved, but this increase added to the existing difficulties will be felt for a long time in this industry. As Deputy Byrne said, it is hard to know what kind of reception people at the motor show will receive next week.

Mr. Pattison

In relation to this resolution is it not a fact that as a result of the budget today the price of the ordinary push bicycle will be increased?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The push bicycle surely does not arise on this resolution.

Mr. Pattison

It is very relevant to it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The push bicycle does not use petrol or any type of oil that I know of.

Dr. Byrne

It uses three-in-one oil.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Some people around here use a lot of oil.

The Taoiseach

I shall be very brief because I fear we are running out of time and, as you pointed out, we have a number of resolutions still to deal with between now and midnight. The main Opposition point in regard to this resolution has been the increase of 20p on the gallon of petrol. One would be a great deal more impressed by the howls of rage, indignation and the cries of despair emenating from those benches if one did not recall that those are the two parties, Fine Gael and Labour in Coalition, who put up the price of petrol by 15p.

Mr. L'Estrange

That was before the manifesto in which the Taoiseach's party promised to bring down the cost of motoring.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There should by no interruptions.

The Taoiseach

I have sat here since 7.30 and I have not interrupted anybody except jocosely.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There should be no interruptions. The Taoiseach should be allowed to finish.

The Taoiseach

Those two parties in their unholy alliance in Coalition put 15p on the gallon of petrol in December 1974. As a result of that increase the proportion of duty in the price of a gallon of petrol at that time was 58 per cent. When this increase goes on, the duty content of a gallon of petrol will be only 50 per cent. I do not really think that whoever can make the case against the increase in the petrol duty on this occasion, it should be either the Fine Gael or Labour Parties who should take that role upon themselves.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

Can I be protected?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Kelly has only just come back into the House and he starts interrupting immediately. The Deputy is worse than Deputy L'Estrange.

The Taoiseach

An increase of 15p in December 1974 would be equivalent to 27p now, whereas the increase which is being put on is 20p. Nobody likes an increase in duty of this sort. Of course it will cause a certain amount of inconvenience for a number of people and it will make motoring more expensive, but we are not taking the proceeds of this duty and squandering it. I ask the Opposition Deputies to consider to what purpose the proceeds of this revenue are being put. We are using them either to increase very generously the Social Welfare benefits or to give very real concessions to PAYE taxpayers. It is not just a one-sided coin because the revenue which is being raised by this duty is being put to very desirable social purposes. The Deputies should keep that in mind.

I know as much about the social and economic scene as any other Deputy in the House. I move around and I am reasonably certain that for the vast amount of motoring done in the country, domestic, pleasure or business motoring, any motorist who wishes to do so can economise sufficiently in the normal week between social motoring, pleasure motoring and business motoring, to save what is involved in this additional duty. I recognise that there are probably some motorists who use their motor cars to get to work and who may not be able to economise to the full extent of this additional impost. We should not forget that the average motorist who uses his car to get to work also uses it for social and pleasure purposes. Even in that aspect of his motoring he should be able with better management and perhaps a little restriction on his movements to save in any week the extra cost involved.

I ask Deputies to look at this in another way. There is a great deal to be said in the national interest for raising tax in this way. There is no doubt that as a community for some considerable time now because of the way the price of oil is going in the oil markets, we have been wasteful in the way in which we have used petrol in particular. Any Deputy who is honest about this would admit that there is in our motoring habits a great deal of unnecessary and even wasteful consumption of petrol. If we are to look at it purely from the economic point of view any Government would be justified, from the point of view of the balance of payments in particular, in putting on some sort of tax in order to get people to cut down on their consumption of petrol. Any Deputy who is honest about this will recognise that that would be totally justifiable in the overall national interest having regard to the unprecedented increase in our balance of payments deficit largely as a result of increased consumption of oil.

Mr. Kelly

It was largely as a result of the Government's own attitude in 1977, as we predicted from the first day the Government changed.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will Deputy Kelly and the Minister for Fisheries allow the Taoiseach to conclude?

The Taoiseach

The Opposition parties do not do themselves any credit or gain for themselves any political kudos by behaving like a lot of bears in a garden.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kelly just fell short of going back and fighting the civil war in his contribution. I do not think the ordinary man in the street is interested in that sort of contribution on an important occasion like this. This imposition of 20p on the gallon of petrol is proportionately less than that put on by the Coalition Government in December 1974. It will cause some inconvenience, perhaps even a little hardship here and there, but by and large the ordinary motorist can adjust his motoring habits to economise to the extent of saving this amount in his weekly motoring.

Mr. Enright

I would like one point to be elucidated. I would like the Taoiseach to give an explanation of the position in relation to the school bus service.

The Taoiseach

In the normal course of events this rebate would be confined to CIE strictly. So far as Deputy Enright's point is concerned it does not matter all that much in relation to the general public because school children do not pay on these buses anyway. If the costs of the bus operation go up that is usually a matter between them and CIE.

Mr. Kelly

There is no "if" about it.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We have talked about an hour-and-half on this. We are not going to start this all over again.

Mr. Enright

This is a matter of some importance. The position is——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not in Committee. The debate on the resolution is finished. We can have a brief question but that is all.

Mr. Enright

The position is that the private bus owners tender for the contract with CIE. In relation to the contract and tenders that are already effected, what will the position be? I believe they will have to get an increase if they are to meet these increased costs.

The Taoiseach

That would be a matter for negotiation between them and CIE. The principal point is that the school children will not be affected. They still travel free, thanks to Fianna Fáil policy.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister for Finance stated today that he expected to gain about £113 million on this item of taxation. Could the Taoiseach tell us how that figure is made up?

The Taoiseach

Petrol, £49 million; road diesel, £14.9 million; other oils, £46.6 million; motor vehicle LPG, that is, the gas, £.5 million and other LPG, £2 million.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The reason I asked that question is that I want to know what allowance is made for the economy arising out of this?

The Taoiseach

In all their duties the Revenue Commissioners estimated the return bearing in mind any fall off in consumption as a result of the increased price.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): What allowance is made for fall off in consumption.

The Taoiseach

I have already indicated that these returns given by me are calculated by the Revenue Commissioners in the case of all these duties having regard to their experience about what fall off occurs as a result of duties.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): I asked the question because the Taoiseach stated that he thought this would bring about an economy in the use of petrol. I want to know what allowance is made for the fall off in arriving at that figure of £113 million.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Taoiseach has answered.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): There is no answer to it. They are bluffing.

The Taoiseach

The amount of duty coming into the Exchequer has been calculated by the Revenue Commissioners on the basis of their previous experience, particularly when the Coalition Government put on 15p. They know the sort of fall off in consumption that that leads to.

Mr. D'Arcy

What percentage?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Would it be 10 per cent?

The Taoiseach

The proposed change is about 2 per cent.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): That is a big joke.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am putting the question.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 53.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Kit.
• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Andrews, Niall.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Browne, Seán.
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Callanan, John.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Cogan, Barry.
• Colley, George.
• Conaghan, Hugh.
• Connolly, Gerard.
• Cowen, Bernard.
• Crinion, Brendan.
• Cronin, Jerry.
• Daly, Brendan.
• de Valera, Sile.
• Killeen, Tim.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Lalor, Patrick J.
• Lawlor, Liam.
• Lemass, Eileen.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Leyden, Terry.
• Loughnane, William.
• Lynch, Jack.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Moore, Seán.
• Morley, P.J.
• Murphy, Ciarán P.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Farrell, Joe.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Filgate, Eddie.
• Fitzgerald, Gene.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South-
• Central).
• Fitzsimons, James N.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Fox, Christopher J.
• French, Seán.
• Gallagher, Dennis.
• Gallagher, James.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Gibbons, Jim.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Herbert, Michael.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Keegan, Seán.
• Kenneally, William.
• Nolan, Tom.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O'Connor, Timothy C.
• O'Donoghue, Martin.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond.
• Power, Paddy.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Smith, Michael.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Woods, Michael J.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

• Barry, Myra.
• Barry, Peter.
• Barry, Richard.
• Begley, Michael.
• Belton, Luke.
• Bermingham, Joseph.
• Boland, John.
• Bruton, John.
• Burke, Liam.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Collins, Edward.
• Conlan, John F.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Cosgrave, Michael J.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• D'Arcy, Michael J.
• Deasy, Martin A.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Donnellan, John F.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• FitzGerald, Garrett.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Gilhawley, Eugene.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hegarty, Paddy.
• Horgan, John.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kelly, John.
• Kenny, Enda.
• L'Estrange, Gerry.
• McMahon, Larry.
• Mannion, John M.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Brien, William.
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• O'Toole, Paddy.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Ryan, John J.
• Spring, Dan.
• Taylor, Frank.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Tully, James.
• White, James.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Moore and B. Ahern; Níl, Deputies L'Estrange and B. Desmond.

Question declared carried.