I agree with some of the sentiments expressed by Deputy Noonan. I welcome the Estimate as far as it goes, but then I must ask myself just how far it does go. The answer is that it goes absolutely nowhere.
It is not strictly the function of the Opposition to provide policies; that is the function of Government. You are not the only one, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, to make that point. Everybody seems to think that Fine Gael in Opposition should be running the country, but this is like asking a surgeon to operate on a patient who is in the next room. We do not have access to what is happening behind closed doors—and they are very much closed at present. We are not in a position fully to assess the situation and come up with remedies. But when the time comes, be it sooner or later, we will have the remedies.
Deputy Noonan spoke about high borrowings and high interest rates. I am a farmer and I am convinced that the real problem so well outlined by the Deputy in his speech is caused by the total mishandling of the economy by the Fianna Fáil Party. Money was squandered as a result of the infamous manifesto. We now have a situation where inflation is about 20 per cent, interest rates are also about 20 per cent and we have a zero growth rate.
Mention was made of the situation in other European countries. I have just returned from these countries where I had discussions about such matters. The wave of depression hitting the mainland of Europe has not had the same impact there as in this country because the responsible governments in these other countries had their economies in good shape; they had something on which to fall back, something for the rainy day. We have been caught with nothing in the cupboard for the rainy day. The bareness of the cupboard is emphasised here in that we are not facing the real problems of agriculture; we are only scratching the surface and hitting spots here and there.
Mention has been made of ACOT. One of their main functions will be to give, for the first time, to all politicians an opportunity to find out the grass root feelings of farmers through their local planning meetings. I mentioned this to the Minister of State when last I spoke in this House and said I would appreciate it very much if he would give the green light for regular monthly meetings of the district planning committees. It is at these meetings that Deputies and councillors will find out the real facts of the situation. Deputy Noonan will meet friends who will tell him that his party are not doing too badly and that the other crowd would probably do much worse. That is what we as politicians want to hear, but if one wants to find out what farmers are really saying one should attend these planning meetings.
We were told that we could discuss the middle band of farmers but the meeting ended up discussing the crisis in finance for agriculture. Most people felt that the middle band of farmers were the people who had battened down the hatches long ago and had not gone to their bank manager, the ACC or any other lending agency. They stayed static and, as things have turned out during the past couple of years, they have been the lucky ones. The field leaders, the front runners, took the advice when things were going well in the seventies and borrowed money. I have figures showing that repayments in 1977 for certain borrowings were £8,000 and those repayments are now running at £13,000. Could any man be expected to forecast that in a few short years his repayments to the lending agency would have doubled, that his income would be falling, that his costs would be up by 40 to 50 per cent and that he would be enjoying only about three-quarters of the prices enjoyed by his European counterparts because of the lack of effort on the part of the Minister and the Department concerned with ensuring that he gets the top price in the market place for his products?
We have the policies. It is a pity that this Chamber is constituted as it is with the parties on this side of the House having to hammer everything that is produced on that side of the House and then, when we get over to that side of the House, the same thing happening in reverse. We should work together for agriculture. Agriculture is far too important to be made into a political football. The livelihoods of thousands of farmers depend on it, and agriculture is going through a tunnel with no light at the end of it. The lives of many people, and indeed the economy, depend on a buoyant agriculture.
This Supplementary Estimate is only hitting a few spots here and there, dealing with land projects and allocating a little bit for the farm modernisation scheme. The previous speaker made various points but he did not take them to their logical conclusion. He talked about what the farmers had to face up to, that they have to meet heavy borrowings. Here is a golden opportunity for the Government to look at those people individually through their ACOT advisers, which is the ideal set-up, and to discuss matters with the farmers. They will find out the extent of the borrowings and the problems. They will even find that the odd herd of dairy cows is being sold in order to meet commitments and rear families. This is how serious things are at the moment.
Agriculture needs a massive injection of money to get these farmers out of trouble. The first priority is to get them out of trouble, and they are in big trouble. The only place that this crisis can be solved is here. It is a political problem; it is a problem for the Government and the Government can solve it. Of course, in relation to the total expenditure we are not talking about very substantial sums. We spend millions on infrastructure, on buying land and on encouraging new industries. That is as it should be. But here we have the most substantial industry of all, because whatever fashions change, in motor cars, transport and so on, people must always eat. Their eating habits are becoming more and more sophisticated and our industries based on agriculture are getting more and more sophisticated to meet these requirements. If there is to be light at the end of the tunnel it will have to be found quickly before it is too late. We should not tolerate the closure of the Fastnet co-operative, or of the food factories in Carlow, or of the cutting back of dairy produce. As responsible politicians we should be ensuring that those industries that have problems, such as the Sugar Company and the co-operative societies, are rescued, and rescued now. Any person who has borrowed knows that one does not get out of borrowing by going to bed and sleeping it off, but only by taking off one's coat, rolling up one's sleeves and getting to work. That is the only way we can do it. This Government will not get the economy out of trouble by letting it slide further and further down the hill. There is a very good article in the current issue of Magill entitled “In the Valley of the Shadow of Death”. It shows that we are fast coming to a stage where we will be borrowing to pay the interest on the debts already incurred.
Agriculture is one area into which money can be poured because we know we will get it back. By putting money into agriculture we will be able to put the country back on its feet. Static production will not save us. The only answer is to expand and to expand quickly. We must help the farmers who are in trouble; they have already expanded. We must encourage those who have not done so to do so immediately. We must expand our co-operatives, our food processing industries. We must ensure that there are adequate processing facilities for every meat plant and that, as far as possible, every pound of food that leaves this country is processed and prepared for the market. Big operators in the UK and all over Europe are picking around from one food product to another indicating that they need one thing and that they do not need the other. It is time that the Government and the Minister went on to the market place with one Irish brand, whether it be called "Kerrygold" or anything else, and ensured that everything leaving here leaves in a processed condition under one brand name. The Government should go on to the market place and say that, if these operators want our quality Irish beef, they must take our dairy products and our horticulture products. This is what the Jews do — and they are getting away with it. I see no reason why a community such as ours, which is so totally dependent on agriculture, cannot do the same.
We should stop all this town and country bickering. If only the people in Grafton Street and O'Connell Street would realise that the whole economy is dependent on the success of agriculture, it would stop all this bickering between the PAYE people and the farmers that is doing so much damage. We are all interdependent. We depend on the workers and the workers depend on agriculture. The whole economy depends on agriculture, on what it can produce and on what we can sell abroad. I am convinced that we are still dealing in a buoyant market place as far as food is concerned. If we were exporting combines costing £30,000, or expensive motor cars, we would have a problem. But we are exporting something that has to be bought and the people who are buying it are still able to pay for it.
This is why I am so disappointed with this paltry Estimate, which does not really face up to the situation. There is no point in going along to the banks and telling them they will have to give cheaper money. The building societies would not even reduce interest rates to please the Government. The Government have to take the blame for inflation and for the 18 and 19 per cent interest rates, because our colleagues in Belgium and Holland were able to borrow at 5 per cent and 6 per cent. I saw that for myself. This is a national problem. We have caused the problem by the stupid performance of the Government and no other thing put us where we are today. We should try to get out of it again and the only way we can do that is by getting agriculture back on its feet and restoring confidence in it.
The first real way to restore confidence is not by making wonderful statements about a growth of 2 per cent or 3 per cent. We know all about growth. The way to deal with the problem is by going to individual farmers who have problems, farmers who have borrowed £20,000 or £30,000 and are having difficulties, and seeing what we can do about it. The Government should offer them interest-free money. This freezing of the capital repayments is only a very temporary advantage. It will all have to be paid back at savage interest rates. The interest rates will have to be subsidised if these people are to survive. Their land is not even saleable at the moment. They get only about one-fifth or one-sixth of what they paid for it. The Minister of State, who understands the problem, should tackle his Minister and the Government and tell them that, if we are to face the problem of Irish agriculture we must tackle the heavy borrowings and heavy commitments those people have and ensure that they are helped. We should then face the farmers with a programme for ensuring a buoyant agricultural industry for 1981. The Minister should convince them that, with good marketing and with good performance in the market place in the EEC, we will get a good market for everything we produce. If we doubled our dairy produce, our sugar production, horticultural production, cheese production, meat and everything we produce, it would not even cause a pimple in the food mountains of Europe because we are only taking about 1 per cent or 2 per cent of the total production.
The money provided in the Supplementary Estimate for the farm modernisation scheme will be a help, especially if it means that the money due to those farmers is paid out promptly. I have written to the Minister of State frequently, who replies and does his best. However, delays are still occurring. We must bear in mind that those small farmers have borrowed money and have told their bankers that they are entitled to money but are not getting it. That is not good business.
With regard to the contribution to ACOT, I believe we are still treating it as a voluntary organisation which in some mysterious way has to exist on nothing. Cutbacks are taking place all the time. Only half the number of staff necessary for our local offices are employed. I am not talking about agricultural advisers as much as the technicians and such people who can do a lot of soil sampling, and girls in the offices to answer the telephone. This is very essential for the efficient operation of the ACOT offices.
The district planning meetings have been cut down to about three or four in the year. The most significant thing about ACOT is the district planning meeting. I have learned more at those meetings than at any other meetings I have attended, because the most important people attend those meetings, including the women's representatives. The Minister of State should ensure that the green light is given to hold regular meetings. In my area we held a meeting recently without permission because we felt it was very important to go ahead with our meeting. The chairman rang up the people concerned, who attended at their own expense, and we had an excellent meeting. The district planning meetings are very important. If those meetings are held regularly the ordinary farmers will keep the Government aware of the problems relating to agriculture.
The previous speaker referred to the problem of intervention. I favour intervention and I hope that it is introduced for every element of Irish agricultural production. I have particularly in mind horticultural products. The biggest problem the Irish food processing industry has to face is fluctuations in the market place. If somebody knows that one has a surplus of a certain product, one is screwed in relation to price. Our horticultural industry can go places, but if that is to take place we cannot allow any food industry to close down. The food processing industry has contributed a lot to the economy of small towns all over the country where employment has always been very important. Those small processing industries must be saved. I believe that salvation for those small industries lies in ensuring that we have an intervention price and that the EEC carry those products until a market is available for them.
There is a lot of talk about buying Irish. I have never heard more lip service being paid to anything as I have about that. One has only to go into a supermarket, even those which are co-operatively owned, and one will see Findus foods, English biscuits, chips, crisps and everything from all over the world; but one will hardly see an Irish product. The French have found a way to keep out Japanese cars, so we must find a way to ensure that our market is fully supplied with Irish products at the right price. Perhaps the supermarkets get better cuts from overseas people. There is certainly no justification for supermarket owners stocking their shelves with English food products, and products from other countries, which are only giving employment to somebody with a telex machine and a secretary, while our own produce is sitting in food factories and they are closing down. The full impact of such closures and the full impact on agricultural co-operatives of a three-day week has not really hit home. This will only occur when the funds start to run dry and the payments start to run out. The money given in the Supplementary Estimate is only a temporary measure to take us over a temporary problem.