Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Dec 1980

Vol. 325 No. 1

Supplementary Estimates, 1980. - Vote 41:Labour.

Minister for Labour (Mr. G. Fitzgerald)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31 day of December, 1980, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Labour, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

The items in this Supplementary Estimate are an additional £150,000 for resettlement allowances and an additional £1.75 million for An Comhairle Oiliúna, comprising £750,000 for general expenses and £1 million for capital expenditure. There is also an additional £300,000 for the work experience programme. Since it will be possible to meet these additional provisions from savings elsewhere in the Vote and extra receipts under appropriations-in-aid the Supplementary Estimate is for a nominal £10.

The original estimate of £220,000 in the subhead for resettlement allowances has proved insufficient. The resettlement scheme provides for financial assistance to eligible workers who have to change residence to take up jobs offered through the National Manpower Service.

In June 1979 a recruitment campaign was mounted in the United Kingdom for the express purpose of attracting here workers with specified "key" skills which had been identified as being in particularly short supply and which have the potential to create additional employment. As an inducement to these workers to take up employment here the levels of resettlement assistance payable were increased. In addition a new grant of up to £2,000 was made available to any of these "key" workers who bought a residence here.

So far 150 such workers have settled here, of whom 65 have to date received assistance under the scheme, 60 of them in this year up to 28 November.

In addition to the workers with the specified "key" skills there has been a large increase this year in the numbers of other eligible claimants, mainly Irish persons returning from Britain, to take up jobs for which suitable local applicants were not available.

It is expected that expenditure this year under the Resettlement Assistance Scheme will amount to £370,000. It is, therefore, necessary to ask the House to make available an additional sum of £150,000 to meet commitments. I might mention that a substantial part of this expenditure will qualify for European Social Fund assistance, which will go into Appropriations in Aid, though the actual moneys will probably not come to hand in this financial year. The original estimates for AnCO this year were £16.8 million for non-capital and £5 million for capital which were 25 per cent up on the 1979 provisions.

In the Second National Understanding for Economic and Social Development the Government are committed to increase the State contribution to the financing of training so as to ensure an adequate supply of workers with appropriate skills and to provide for training and retraining of unemployed persons. This supplementary financing provision for AnCO is a first step in fulfilling this commitment.

A high priority of the Government is to cater for apprentices whose apprenticeships have been temporarily interrupted in the present difficult economic situation. AnCO have been directly involved in assisting such apprentices through taking them into their training centres and offering suitable courses pending their re-employment. The direct intervention of AnCO in this area will continue and every effort will be made to ensure that apprentices are not disadvantaged because of difficulties which their employers may be experiencing. AnCO are also expanding their programmes to cater more extensively for the particular needs of those who have recently been declared redundant and the long-term unemployed.

The additional capital allocation of £1 million will enable AnCO to make further progress on their training centre building programme under which it is planned to increase the number of training places available from the existing level of slightly in excess of 4,000 to a total of 7,000 over the next few years. The selection of new training centre locations has been heavily influenced by the identified needs for vocational training facilities, the employment outlets, both existing and planned, and the skill needs of local industry.

As Deputies know, the AnCO programmes for which these moneys are voted qualify for European Social Fund assistance. Indeed, roughly half of AnCO's non-capital budget is financed from the fund and there is also a substantial contribution to capital expenditure.

To supplement the £1.8 million originally allocated towards the Work Experience Programme a further £300,000 is sought this year.

As Deputies are aware, the Work Experience Programme, which was introduced in September 1978, enables young persons — particularly those in the 18 to 20 age group — to gain a practical knowledge of working life which is valuable to them in seeking employment. Under the programme the young persons are placed with employers both in the private and public sectors for up to 26 weeks and an allowance of £20 per week is payable. A yardstick of the success of the scheme is that over 80 per cent of participants have succeeded in getting regular jobs before or at the end of their 26 weeks periods.

The number of young persons who have participated in the scheme this year up to 31 October is 6,477 and it is expected that, with the increased allocation, the number will be around 7,000 for the whole of 1980. This programme is particularly popular with young people and employers and has been very successful. We believe it is important to continue it by making extra funds available.

I should add that since this scheme also qualifies for European Social Fund assistance the net extra cost to the Exchequer comes to 45 per cent of the voted expenditure, the ESF assistance coming in under Appropriations in Aid, though probably not in this financial year.

As the Supplementary Estimate indicates, the bulk of the additional funds sought can be met from additional Appropriations in Aid under the heading of receipts from the European Social Fund. In fact, I can say that of the £2.2 million necessary to cover the items to which I have referred almost £1,850,000 comes from Appropriations in Aid, through that channel, leaving only slightly over £350,000 to be met from savings. My Department's Vote benefits from such aid — that is, aid from the Social Fund — in relation to part of the Employment Incentive Scheme, the Work Experience Programme and certain operations of the National Manpower Service, including the Resettlement Assistance Scheme. While the amounts received from the fund relate to actual expenditure on those services, the timing of receipt of moneys from Brussels has been difficult to predict. The figures now shown in the Supplementary Estimate covers amounts actually received to date in 1980

Mr. Mitchell

I welcome this Supplementary Estimate. I should like to avail of this opportunity to compliment AnCO whom I believe do not get nearly as much credit as they deserve, they being one of the most excellent of our State agencies and much admired elsewhere in the EEC. It is important to place that on record because, as the House is aware, none of us is slow to criticise. Of course that is not to say there is no room for improvement and expansion — there is — and it is for that reason this Supplementary Estimate is particularly welcome.

I should like to avail of this opportunity also to talk about employment, to which the Minister referred briefly in the course of his remarks. Unemployment is the most pressing problem facing this country at present. It is at present our most serious economic problem and, what is more, will continue to be the most serious economic problem confronting us for many years to come.

The challenge is very exciting but it is a challenge that we have the capacity to meet. However, a major national effort is required if we are to overcome the problem of unemployment. This issue is of such importance as to transcend by far any division there might be either between political parties or within political parties. For that reason we should be very slow to tolerate anything unreasonable in our society, anything that would inhibit the economic growth necessary to create the thousands of productive jobs which we need now and which we will continue to need each year for the remainder of the century.

It is not new for me to say in that context that our industrial relations situation is totally unreasonable, having regard to the jobs challenge. I am confident that both within this House and outside it there is a consensus regarding the necessity to bring about the enduring industrial peace which is essential if we are to have the optimum atmosphere for job creation. But the task involved in bringing about the right atmosphere is not easy. The problem is complex but it is one that we should not allow to continue to be put on the long finger.

An Ceann Comhairle

I should like the Deputy to confine himself to the items referred to in the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Mitchell

Of course, Sir, I will obey your ruling. However in a debate on a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Labour, I would consider it appropriate to deal, even in passing, with matters that are very relevant to the items being voted on.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that if I were to allow him to cover the whole labour spectrum we would be very much out of order. Therefore, I will ask him to refer only to what is contained in the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Mitchell

It is very important that in the context of employment creation, which, as I have been saying, is the central economic challenge facing us, the necessary skilled work force is available. I am glad to note that the Minister is seeking more money under the heading of the resettlement allowance. That is a good sign. It indicates that there has been some success in attracting back to Ireland the type of key skilled personnel we need to provide for industrial expansion. This success may be due in some measure to the effects of the recession in the UK and elsewhere. Recent indicators show that at this moment we are not experiencing any great shortage of these skilled personnel though there was such a shortage some months ago. However, it is reasonable to expect that a shortage will manifest itself once again when the recession begins to peter out. Therefore, the resettlement allowance programme should not be deterred in any way by the temporary problems presented by the recession. It is only right that we should continue to attract back key skilled personnel.

In connection with this scheme there arises the question of the availability of local authority housing for those skilled people who may wish to return to work in Ireland. This may not be a matter directly for the Minister for Labour but it is very much relevant to the scheme. I am aware that the Minister has taken this question up with the Minister for the Environment but I should like to hear whether arrangements have been made with local authorities to give to the people I am talking of priority in so far as local authority housing is concerned. Any such arrangement could be expected to contribute significantly to the success of the programme.

I should like the Minister to comment also on the related area of mis-matching. There are some areas in which there are plenty of skilled personnel but no jobs for them. Is there any extra effort being made to retain people with skills that are now obsolete or, alternatively, to find areas of employment for those skills?

Another area to which the Minister referred, and which is a source of great concern not only to me but to all of us here and to many people outside, is the question of the temporary unemployment of apprentices. I am glad that the Minister referred to this problem in his statement. I am not in any way happy with the situation in this regard. There is insecurity for these apprentices in many areas of employment. There are some employers who more than play their part in training apprentices. Some industries are much better than others in so far as this area is concerned but there are some also who are reluctant to train the people they will need for the future and who tend to push that responsibility on to other people. That is one problem which we should make every effort to overcome.

The other problem in this context is that in some areas apprentices are very often the first to be laid off when there occurs a recession such as the one we are experiencing now. In some cases this is unavoidable but in other cases it could very well be avoided. Very often an apprentice whose employment is terminated in this way is discouraged and demoralised and finishes up without any skill. That is why we should make every effort to provide continuity of apprenticeship. Here I should like to pay tribute to the role both of AnCO and of the Minister in recognising the problem. I hope that even further efforts will be made to provide the continuity which is so important in terms of the morale and confidence of apprentices. The Minister said in his speech, and I quote:

A high priority of the Government is to cater for apprentices whose apprenticeships have been temporarily interrupted in the present difficult economic situation. AnCO have been directly involved in assisting such apprentices through taking them into their training centres and offering suitable courses pending their re-employment. The direct intervention of AnCO in this area will continue and every effort will be made to ensure that apprentices are not disadvantaged because of difficulties which their employers may be experiencing.

That is an important statement by the Minister for Labour and I support it fully. I can only hope it reassures the many apprentices involved.

One of the other areas covered by this Supplementary Estimate is the work experience programme. It is a programme about which I am still a little sceptical. In his speech on this Supplementary Estimate and in other speeches the Minister said that 80 per cent of participants in the scheme have succeeded in getting regular jobs. On the face of it that is very successful and if it were the whole story I would be quite happy. However, I think it can be looked at in another way, that many employers who would otherwise have to employ people have taken advantage of the scheme and have put a charge on the State. In these days of large budgetary deficits that is an unfair encumbrance on the State. I do not think that can be overcome and to some extent I have never been completely happy with the programme; but, while I have slight reservations about it, I accept that it is not totally without value. It is really an offshoot of the employment incentive scheme which was introduced by Deputy Michael O'Leary during the term of office of the National Coalition Government. That was by far the most successful job creation programme introduced by any Government and that was evident in the figures given by the Minister.

One of the good things about this Supplementary Estimate is the fact that a considerable amount of money has come from the European Social Fund. As a country we have done well out of this fund and the Department of Labour and AnCO deserve praise for taking advantage of it for exploiting it to the full. Probably we could have more schemes that would attract more money into the country and I have every confidence that the Department of Labour and AnCO will use the scheme to the full.

All the matters referred to in the Supplementary Estimate — the resettlement allowances, the work experience programme and extra training by AnCO — are connected with the subject I dealt with when I started my speech. It is one about which we should be confident and determined, namely, employment for all our people. It is the central economic challenge facing us. Together we must do everything we can to create the optimum conditions to provide the necessary skills in our people so that we may confront and face up to the exciting challenge posed by our young people.

Mr. J. Ryan

With the previous speaker I welcome this Supplementary Estimate. As this may be the last time we will be speaking to the Minister in his capacity as Minister for Labour——

Mr. Mitchell

The Deputy said that before.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I do not think so.

Mr. J. Ryan

——I wish the Minister every success. Unfortunately, I have no say in the matter of his future prospects. At the moment I should like to deal specifically with his role in the Department of Labour. The Supplementary Estimate deals with AnCO and the retraining and resettlement programmes but I should like to refer to the three major areas, namely, the National Manpower Service, AnCO and the Labour Court.

In the past 12 months there has been a substantial increase in unemployment. Unfortunately the greater impact has been felt in the traditional industries that were established in the past 30 or 40 years and, as a result, there are many redundancies in the older age group. In this connection AnCO have a considerable task before them. A young boy or girl can be trained at the age of 18 or 19 years. At that age their perceptibility and keenness to learn makes it much easier for the programme manager to ensure that at the end of their training period they are attuned to the needs of the job in which they may be interested.

As the previous speaker stated, industrial peace is vital if our employment and economic development objectives are to be attained. At the moment we have a deteriorating employment situation, especially in the traditional industries. There are many men and women who have given up to 30 years' service to the industries in which they were employed but because of the recession many of them are now without a job and without experience in any other aspect of work. This is where AnCO must play an important role and it is essential that there be a substantial expansion of their programme. I should like to compliment them on the work they are doing. They have a vital role to play in training young people but in the past 12 months their work has increased considerably because of the serious impact on the older members of the work force. There is an urgent need for resettlement programmes to ensure that these men and women are retrained and re-employed as soon as possible. The last thing we need as we approach 1981 is an uneasy work force. We cannot afford that. If we are to achieve our economic growth objectives we must have a contented work force and that brings me back again to the vital need for industrial peace.

I compliment the Minister on his emphasis that in the second national understanding his Government are committed to increasing the State contribution to the retraining of unemployed people. This is vital and I welcome it. I also welcome the statement that the AnCO programme is being expanded. There is a grave urgency for greater emphasis on the older generation of our work force who, through the recession, find themselves unemployed and unable to meet the challenge of new employment without the help of AnCO.

The National Manpower Service throughout rural Ireland have given substantial service also. Their power, which is very relevant to the workings of AnCO, should be somewhat strengthened. They are performing to the best of their ability in placing people in employment, but are not being allowed to reach their fuller and greater objectives. I have repeatedly asked the Minister — and this may be my last opportunity to appeal to him as Minister for Labour——

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Not at all, Deputy. There is plenty of time left yet.

Mr. J. Ryan

I am being optimistic for the Minister. Perhaps he would reconsider, as decentralisation of the public sector has now been given emphasis by the Government, decentralising the Labour Court. The Minister told me previously in the House that he did not think in present circumstances——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid the Deputy is going somewhat outside the confines of the debate.

Mr. J. Ryan

I shall be very brief.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is disorderly, Deputy, whether brief or otherwise.

Mr. J. Ryan

I shall not be asked to leave the House for what I say but I wish to take perhaps my last opportunity to appeal once again to the Minister to reconsider his decision. Rural Ireland and its work force should be entitled to the benefits of the Labour Court which is situated and centralised in the city of Dublin.

If we are to have industrial peace, with a registered figure of 115,000 unemployed and the danger of that number increasing, the Minister's Department will have to play a very vital role in ensuring that those out of work and needing work are trained and retrained in the years ahead. Decentralisation has already taken place in one public sector, the Revenue Commissioners. To many people in rural Ireland they are not perhaps as welcome as they appear to be but perhaps the Minister would reconsider the question of decentralisation for the ordinary workers.

Mr. O'Toole

I take this opportunity of saying a few words on this Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Labour and, in particular, on the AnCO training scheme. As we all know, the track record of AnCO is one of which we can all be justly proud. However, the economic forces which bring pressure on different sections are such that the distribution of opportunities within the training service, despite the best efforts of successive Governments, is not what it might be. For that reason, the demands made on the labour force by industry and, in particular, by new technology must be established and quantified. I know that this work is going on, but we can all give examples, due to lack of experience or foresight, of instances where the personnel required for a particular type of industry were not available and, indeed, the training of these people caused great difficulty in the past. The Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, is aware of this. In our own area, some years ago, a large industry was set up and the local AnCO centre was not capable of providing the services which that industry needed in the form of trained personnel and they were trained elsewhere. This is just one case of the inadequacies of a system which in itself has great potential and is absolutely essential to our economic future.

The Minister of Labour has repeatedly emphasised the need for a high degree of training in new technology. I fully endorse this sentiment, but I wonder if cognisance is taken of the real problems which arise in relation to new technology, both in manufacturing and in the services industries. I am aware that a survey is now being done to establish the impact of micro-technology on industry in general and the kind of training necessary to meet this challenge.

The solution of our unemployment problems is of major concern at the moment. The solution lies mainly in a few specific areas, the main one being the provision of small industrial units. Looking back over the past 18 months, it is brought home very starkly to us that small has again become beautiful. The training necessary for people engaged in production in small units differs totally from that necessary in larger units. The IDA, the county development teams and other agencies, like SFADCo, are endeavouring to concentrate on the provision of small units but I do not know if the training programme of AnCO is orientated to take account of this new emphasis or concentration on the small production unit. The major impact training schemes have had in the past cannot be overestimated. They have been of crucial importance. There are areas which have not been getting the kind of attention which would seem to be required in the training of personnel.

If I may become parochial for a moment, Mayo is badly in need of an expansion of its training facilities. For some years past we have had what is regarded as a temporary training centre which is totally unsuitable for the purpose for which it is being used. Alternative accommodation has been offered in the past and has been turned down because of a reluctance on the part of the Department of Labour to give permanent status to a training centre in this area. When one looks at the industrial expansion and the need for further expansion, on cannot but cast a jaundiced eye on the reluctance to provide this crucial facility in an area where there is already a need for this kind of training.

The IDA have embarked on a programme of providing advance factories in many areas, including my own, and that is something for which we are very thankful. We must have an adequate labour force available. It is no longer regarded as adequate to have a labour force which is untrained in the sense that people have no experience in the industrial scene. For the average investor that approach is not regarded as adequate. The training of young people in industry through the AnCO training centres is of crucial importance. To show a commitment to that the Department must be prepared to set up permanent centres to be used by the local people and by local industry and to be used also as an inducement for potential investors to come into the area. If we have permanent training centres providing a wide range of facilities for training young people in all the technicalities of industry, these are major incentives and inducements to potential investors. I would ask the Minister to review the situation in relation to my area, because such a centre is badly needed with the provision of extra advance factories as an extra lever to coax potential investors into the area.

The recent past has not been happy in relation to the industrial relations scene. There are many instances of labour unrest, in many cases caused by a lack of understanding on the part of the labour force and management.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not like to interrupt the Deputy but would he please keep to the items in the Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. O'Toole

I was referring in passing to industrial unrest. Any debate on a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Labour must relate to this facet of our industrial life. I am proud to be in the company of my colleague, Deputy Mitchell, who has produced what my party regard as a blueprint for industrial peace. An opportunity should be given for the implementation of the provisions in that policy document. We have in excess of 115,000 people unemployed. With seasonal adjustments that is a high figure. Loss of employment is becoming a very unwelcome and serious trend. The Department of Labour have a very important role to play here. Anything they can do and we can do to ensure the retention of existing employment ought to be welcomed. I wonder whether enough attention is being paid to the areas of responsibility which come within the ambit of the Minister for Labour. Together with the Department of Industry, Commerce and Tourism that Department have a major role to play on the industrial scene.

Looking back on the recent past, which has been troubled in the labour scene, one is struck by the lack of specific measures introduced to try to cool the labour situation which has become over-heated and to ensure the retention of jobs because that is what we are talking about. My reason for speaking was to impress on the Minister the importance of establishing a permanent training centre in the area I represent with the Minister of State. It is something which is badly needed, something to which attention is now being drawn.

Minister for Labour (Mr. G. Fitzgerald)

I thank Deputies Mitchell and Ryan for their support on the Estimate and for their complimentary remarks about AnCO. I am sorry that the last speaker was not here to listen to some of their comments about AnCO as it might have helped him to overcome some of his problems about understanding the situation.

The Government have shown in this Supplementary Estimate their commitment to AnCO and to the need for training at apprentice level, at redundancy level and at long-term unemployment level. Deputy Ryan specifically referred to the redundant older worker who is a person for whom concern must be shown because of the added difficulty of getting back into the work force. An indication of the Government's commitment is reflected in the allocation to AnCO which already this year was 25 per cent higher than in 1979. The additional £1.75 million provided now shows a further substantial increase in the funds for the provision of extra places on the capital side and for current expenditure.

I share the views put forward about apprentices as they are very important. It is important that industry should ensure as far as possible that apprentices are kept on and are trained during periods of recession. During the last recession the Government of the day did not show a commitment to keeping apprentices trained, nor did industry, and the result was that we had a very serious shortage of skilled and key people in recent times. For Deputy Mitchell's information, while the position is not as acute as it was, shortages still exist and the indications are that they will continue to exist in key areas.

Deputy O'Toole has left the House but he referred specifically to the Ballina centre. The position there is something that I as Minister inherited. It did not happen during my time. The Deputy should be aware that it is not a decision of the Department of Labour. AnCO are a statutory body with a council that handle their affairs in those directions. They make their own decisions regarding the best location for centres taking into consideration the spread of the whole country and the need for training people. Deputy O'Toole spoke about the need for training for small units and big units. It does not make any difference whether it is in a small unit or in a big unit if the skill is the same. AnCO are fully aware of the needs of industry. They work in close co-operation with the manpower service and with the IDA in the training of people and in helping to maximise opportunities for people to get jobs.

In relation to the resettlement allowance, Deputy Mitchell referred to local authority housing. Under this scheme for bringing key workers home from abroad we have a £2,000 housing allowance. This was a successful scheme, indicated by the fact that we have to provide more money for it.

In relation to apprentices, the experience so far is that employers generally are retaining apprentices except where there are mass redundancies or where there are closedowns. I would encourage employers to continue that because it is extremely important to have trained people available. However, when apprentices become redundant AnCO will try to place them elsewhere or will take them back into training until they can be restored to employment. This is one of the reasons why we are providing extra money for them.

In relation to the work experience programme, I was surprised by Deputy Mitchell's comment suggesting that it is related to the employment incentive scheme. I was surprised that as labour spokesman the Deputy did not realise the difference between the two. The work experience programme, introduced in September 1978, is extremely important for the young person. This scheme helps people without experience going before an interview board. Because of their lack of experience they were often passed to the end of the list. The placement rate from that scehme is 80 per cent, which is an indication of its success.

The fact that much of this money is coming from appropriations-in-aid was mentioned. This is a tribute to my officials, my Minister of State and to myself for good housekeeping arrangements. I do not agree with Deputy Mitchell when he says that the social fund has been exploited. I compliment the officials concerned for the successful way in which they have arranged the availability of funds through the European Social Fund to assist in training and the other related areas covered by the fund.

Deputy Ryan appealed to me on the question of the Labour Court. I have a lot of sympathy with the Deputy's request but this is not final. The best information available to me is that rather than solving problems it could create some. I will bear what the Deputy has said in mind because I have some sympathy with the situation but there are some difficulties in doing what the Deputy has asked me to do on a number of occasions. I thank Deputies for their support in getting the Supplementary Estimate through this evening.

Vote put and agreed to.