Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Dec 1980

Vol. 325 No. 2

Supplementary Estimates, 1980. - Vote 36: Fisheries.

Minister for Fisheries and Forestry (Mr. Power)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £982,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1980, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, in connection with Sea and Inland Fisheries, including sundry grants-in-aid.

This amount is required to meet additional expenditure which will arise on subheads B1, C1, C3, D1 and E, of the Fisheries Vote.

On subhead B1 this increase on the original provision of £210,800 arises because of increases granted in the rates of travelling and subsistence together with an increase in the volume of travelling arising from EEC fishery matters. Increased expenditure has also arisen on advertising in connection with the Fisheries Act, 1980.

On subhead C1 the original provision was £175,000. The additional expenditure is necessary to meet the cost of boat hire in connection with additional herring surveys in the Celtic Sea. These surveys are necessary to provide essential data on the state of the herring stocks.

On subhead C3 this provision, in addition to the original provision of £3,000,000, is required to meet expected expenditure on fishery harbour works in progress this year. These works have progressed quickly and satisfactorily and contractual commitments which are difficult to estimate have to be met.

On subhead D1 — An Bord Iascaigh Mhara — Administration and Current Development — £24,000 (Grant-in-Aid), the original provision was £3,760,500. The additional amount is required to meet the cost of pay increases due under the national understanding.

On subhead E — Inland Fisheries Development — £435,700, the original provision was for a sum of £1,439,200. The additional sum required includes (1) £50,000 for the purchase of two fishery patrol boats for use in the Kerry and Waterford fishery districts and (2) £20,000 for additional expenses, mainly increased wages and rates, in connection with the operation of the Galway Fishery, which were not provided for in the original Estimate. The balance of the additional provision is to meet the cost of special pay increases and pay increases due under the national understanding.

On subhead J — Appropriations-in-Aid — £11,900, the original estimated receipts of £126,740 are now expected to be exceeded by £11,900 because of increased income from the Galway Fishery.

The net total of the foregoing provisions is £1,187,000. It is anticipated, however, that savings amounting to £205,000 will arise on other subheads which will be offset against some of the excesses. It is, therefore, necessary to have approval for a Supplementary Estimate of £982,000 and I accordingly recommend this to the Dáil.

Mr. White

I am not in agreement with this Supplementary Estimate. In the time alloted to me I hope I can explain why I intend to oppose it. When a Fisheries Bill was introduced in the spring of the year, the Minister and I were looking forward to developments in the fishing industry. We both talked about the different ways in which the fishing industry could and should be developed. We agreed that we were sitting on one of our best industries.

I want it spelled out exactly where this £1 million of State money is going. Last week a Supplementary Estimate for £50 million for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs was introduced and it was passed without a vote. This Supplementary Estimate represents an increase of 16 per cent. It is an increase of £1 million for the Department. The Minister talked about boat hire for herring surveys and mentioned a figure of £30,000. Am I right in assuming that the entire £30,000 was needed for herring surveys around the Irish coast? If so, did we get a grant from the EEC towards these surveys? When we entered the EEC we were told that the EEC would bear their share of the expenditure for research, development and surveys. On what date did we apply to the EEC for a grant towards this £30,000, if we did apply?

The Minister then went on to talk about a sum of £674,000 for harbour development. Surely it is not too much to expect that when they were making their estimates in the spring the Department would have made allowance for inflation and for increases in wages. I take it this sum of £674,000 is for harbour development only and does not include the cost of wages. If so, I should like to know exactly what harbour development he is talking about, where are the projects, and what schemes are in operation. I am not talking about wages. I am talking about the increased cost of harbour development since the spring.

The Minister mentioned a figure of £435,700 for inland fisheries development. He said two boats had to be bought, which I accept, for use on the south-west coast at a cost of £50,000. He talked about £20,000 for additional expenses. He then mentioned the Galway Fishery. Am I wrong in thinking that the Galway Fishery made a loss over the past nine months rather than a profit? Perhaps the Minister could enlighten the House on that when he is replying. I understood that since we took over the Galway Fishery it has been working at a profit.

We are talking about a 16 per cent increase here, an increase of £1 million. It is high time we found out exactly where this money is being spent. We have just gone through a disastrous period for Irish fishermen. Everybody who knows anything about fisheries will have to agree with that. We must also face the problem that we are now approaching critical times and critical decisions which will not just affect the fishing industry in the short-term. As I see it, the decisions which will be made over the next couple of months will affect the fishing industry for years and years to come.

The Minister is having and will be having more meetings with his EEC colleagues in Brussels. If necessary he should not be afraid to use the veto available to him if he does not agree with everything being discussed in Brussels. There is no going back this time. Whatever is decided now about the EEC fisheries plan, we will have to put up with that decision for many years to come. It was bad enough in the past when we had to deal with the French, the Scots and the English. The plan the Minister is now discussing must also take into consideration that, if Spain enters the EEC, there will be another excess fleet. The Spanish have not got the waters in which many of them can fish. If we do not take a strong position in Brussels they will be legally entitled to fish in our waters.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that we are dealing with a Supplementary and not a main Estimate and he should confine his remarks to the subheads.

Mr. White

I am talking about sea-fishery development. I realise that the Minister has a difficult task and I only criticise him as part of the Government in relation to our fisheries policy. The Minister must face the fact that the week before last the European Parliament defeated a proposal for an exclusive 12 mile zone for Ireland. I am not worried about that but I am worried about the outcome of the Council of Ministers meeting. The Minister should go to that meeting with the view that we cannot and will not accept anything less than a 12 mile limit.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not like to interrupt, but the Deputy is going very far outside the Supplementary Estimate. The Deputy mentioned sea-fisheries development but that relates to the cost of boat hire in connection with additional herring fishing in the Celtic Sea. The Deputy is ranging over the whole Fisheries Estimate.

Mr. White

If the Chair would bear with me, he will realise that I have only mentioned the three to 12 mile limit in which sea-fishery development must take place. I do not wish to argue with the Chair but if the Chair is patient I will get through this quite quickly. I am not endeavouring to widen the scope of the Estimate.

There is no point in discussing a three mile zone because we will not just accept it. We must at least get a 12 mile exclusive limit. The main problem we have had up to this in relation to sea fishery development is that the Minister had not the full authority to decide what would be done inside that 12 mile area. The Minister for Fisheries should have the exclusive right to decide the numbers and types of fish we should catch inside that area. It is crucial that the EEC partners should have nothing to say in relation to the entire band, whether it includes the Celtic Sea or not, right around our coast. The Minister could make the point that Iceland has a 200 mile exclusive limit. Norway has a 200 mile limit and Canada has a 200 mile limit. We are an island fishing country. In my country 25 per cent of the income comes from the fishing industry. A considerable amount of the income for places like west Cork, Kerry, Waterford and so on comes from fishing. For us to consider allowing the Ministers from France, Germany and England to dictate to the Minister and his Department in relation to the types of fish and the quotas we should catch——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has gone far enough on that aspect.

Mr. White

——is totally wrong. As far as sea fishery development is concerned, we are talking about herring and mackerel catches. In recent years we have seen the closure of a lot of the herring fishing particularly off Donegal and the south-east coasts. At present there are tremendous shoals of mackerel passing the north-west coast and these shoals are being caught mostly by Irish boats but not all by Irish boats. I am not satisfied that these fishery beds are being properly patrolled by the Irish naval vessels. I know that boats cost a lot of money but the best way to deal with this would be to establish a base off the north-west coast, in Killybegs for instance. We cannot expect boats from Cork to travel to the north-west part of the country and patrol it properly. We should have a twopronged attack to ensure that our fishing areas are not interferred with by foreigners. It has probably been reported to the Minister as well as to me that the Dutch, the Scottish and the English have been plundering our waters off the north-west coast as recently as last week. It is high time that some of these boats were pulled in and that we ensured that the trespassers are kept out. Seeing that the Chair does not wish me to go too wide I will not speak about the 50 mile and 200 mile zones——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has not done too badly

Mr. White

——but in relation to the 50 mile zone, we have heard a lot of Fianna Fáil people speaking about the tremendous help we have got from the EEC in relation to purchasing fishery protection vessels. When the Minister goes to the Council of Ministers he should also look for a 75 per cent grant for the maintenance of these boats and for the crews.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is rambling away through the whole Fisheries Estimate. I gave very considerable latitude to the Deputy and I would be glad if he will come back and deal specifically with the items on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. White

It is a very important industry——

An Ceann Comhairle

I fully accept that but we are dealing——

Mr. White

——and I am concerned with the way in which this industry is being neglected. We are talking here about a £1 million Supplementary Estimate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, but——

Mr. White

The Chair should have the leniency to allow me to cover the fishing field. I am not going to talk for an hour. The Chair is interrupting me——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have been exceptionally lenient in relation to this and I would be glad if the Deputy would come to the items for which the money is provided.

Mr. White

I am talking here about the payments to the fishery harbours centres fund. The boats have to go from the fishery harbours and the harbours have to be built. Surely I can deal with that type of thing. As far as harbours are concerned, one of the things that Irish fishermen were promised was an allowance when they take fish from harbours particularly in the west coast. Fishermen are getting no allowance for transporting fish from the furthest point away to the EEC countries. We understood that the price structure for fish coming from Ireland would be such that we would be on an equal basis with the prices of English, French and German fish. This is not happening at present. When speaking about the harbours, I would ask the Minister to tell us what new developments are envisaged in this provision of £674,000. I hope he will not simply talk about the terrible rate of inflation which has been experienced during the past year.

Money has been allocated to the new boards but I am disappointed with developments to date. The Minister will say it was not possible to get these boards into operation more quickly. The Bill was passed early this year and the chief executives are only now being appointed. In some areas which I know very well people have been appointed to these boards because of their allegiance to the Fianna Fáil Party rather than because of their knowledge. When I welcomed the setting up of these boards I pointed out to the Minister that I would be looking critically at nominees and I am sorry that appointments have been based on political allegiance. It is an absolute disgrace at a time when the fishing industry is in such a critical state.

I had hoped that there would be more leniency in regard to the issue of licences, but I notice that the number issued is 112 fewer than in 1977. It appears that the first action of the central board has been to cut the number of licences. The Minister will probably say that this had to be done because salmon stocks in some areas have not been increasing, but he knows that it is high time to consider development. After two years the ESB and other bodies are coming around to my way of thinking. We must first establish smolt-rearing stations to put stocks back into the rivers. Secondly, we must ensure that there is not a repetition of the import of salmon for smoking and reexporting, as happened during the past season. The price of salmon was low and naturally fishermen were complaining in the face of what was happening.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is again wandering from the business before the House.

Mr. White

I am dealing with inland fishery development, which is dealt with under subhead E. Am I not entitled to talk about the new central board?

An Ceann Comhairle

If there are specific matters here relating to it.

Mr. White

One of the matters is two new boats which have been acquired to safeguard salmon stocks. May I continue?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, on that matter.

Mr. White

The Minister will agree that development is needed. Firstly, smolt-rearing stations must be established; secondly, we must stop the importation of salmon; thirdly, we must try to educate interested parties regarding the potential in reared salmon. The Norwegians have been very successful in the latter area and in 1979 they produced ten times more commercially reared salmon than we caught off our shores. Cutting the number of licences by 112 is not the answer. In the area of Letterkenny 33 fewer licences have been issued than in 1979. Does that mean that a person who previously had a licence will not be able to obtain one this year? There must be provision for those who have traditionally fished salmon and by right they should be able to secure licences.

When introducing the recent Bill the Minister gave a half guarantee to the House that the State would endeavour to take over any fisheries which would come on the market. He specifically talked about the Galway fisheries and I welcomed his interest. During the past few weeks the valuable oyster beds in Galway are reported to have been bought by a foreign syndicate. I am very concerned that his should have been allowed to happen and I would ask the Minister to confirm it. If it is true, do the central board intend even at this stage to endeavour to keep these oyster beds in Irish hands?

I mentioned previously the tremendous possibilities for aquaculture, including the development of salmon and trout. I went on to talk about oysters, mussels, scallops, clams and so on. In the Supplementary Estimate we were talking about extra money for Bord Iascaigh Mhara. We were told they were to start a development programme so that aquaculture could be developed here. I said "could be developed"; I maintain it can be developed, but many things are needed. First, we need education, technology — which is provided by different research centres and the Colleges of Technology — and to train personnel and develop markets. The fishing industry could be a very valuable asset but we have failed to utilise it.

At the beginning of the year the Minister gave a commitment that we would have this type of development. After almost a year I am very sad to have to say that damn all was done by BIM or the Department. By naming these two bodies I may be putting my finger on the kernel of the matter. As spokesman for fisheries I found that the two bodies do not always seem to work hand in hand. Some of them do not want to take responsibility and others do not want to give up responsibility. Specific jobs should be spelled out by the Minister, and the Department, BIM and the central board should be told to get on with the job and develop this very valuable industry. I am not satisfied that this is being done.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will note that the additional amount being provided here is to meet the increases granted under the national understanding and that we cannot broaden the debate.

Mr. White

I think I have got my point across. I am not worried about this £1 million, but I object to the way the Department has been run. I am not satisfied that there is enough determination or drive or that we are fully developing this industry. Unless I can get some very good answers from the Minister, I intend to oppose this Supplementary Estimate and call for a vote because I am not at the way the fishing industry is being developed under this Government.

Mr. Treacy

I appreciate that a debate on a Supplementary Estimate of this kind must of necessity be limited and consequently my contribution will be brief. At the same time the Chair will appreciate that we have not been afforded an opportunity of exchanging views with the Minister in detail concerning the sorry state of this industry. This debate affords us the opportunity of asking the Minister to address himself to the chronic situation in this industry, to the crisis situation which has arisen. Views have been conveyed to the Minister by various facets of the fishing industry about the worsening situation. It is a matter of great concern to everyone that the Minister has been so inactive rather than dealing effectively with the worsening situation. This situation has come about as a result of spiralling costs, particularly in relation to materials fishermen are obliged to use, especially fuel oil, a corresponding fall in the price of fish commodities, a restriction on fishing and massive importation of fish from countries outside the EEC.

Spiralling costs, massive inflation, restrictions, imports — this is a situation we never thought we would find ourselves in especially since joining the EEC. As yet the Minister has not been able to reach agreement on a fishery policy in the Community. The much lauded 50 mile limit, which was a firm commitment of so many Ministers when they were in opposition, has been abandoned in a disgraceful fashion.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy come back to the Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. Treacy

The Minister finds himself struggling to achieve the 12 miles limit, which is totally inadequate. Under the Minister and his predecessor, BIM were dealt a death blow. This semi-State organisation, which was an integral part of the fishery industry, an adjunct to the industry, was looked upon by many of us as a great aid and stimulant to the industry. We now find that the boatyards of BIM have been sold within a few months of this Government coming into office——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have already pointed out that the additional amount required here is to meet the increases granted under the national understanding and it is not in order to widen the scope of the debate to include policy and general administration.

Mr. Treacy

I am referring to the subhead dealing with Bord Iascaigh Mhara——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am aware of what the Deputy is commenting on but we cannot discuss policy because this Supplementary Estimate relates purely to pay increases granted under the national understanding.

Mr. Treacy

The hoary Tory policy of selling semi-State boatyards to private enterprise and jeopardising employment is denying this country an opportunity of making and repairing our own boats. Now, most of our boats are being built and repaired abroad. This is an antisocial attitude.

I appeal to the Minister to come to the rescue of the industry and to realise that our fishermen are as entitled to effective aid as any other section of the community — the farmers, businessmen and so on. Our fishermen are going through a very bad time. I would not thank the Minister to subsidise fuel oil for these men, as is done in other EEC countries. I would not thank him for placing a moratorium on the repayments——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is going far outside the scope of the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Treacy

I am affording the Minister an opportunity to comment on what we want done to save the fishing industry.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have comments which are outside the ambit of this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. White

They are very important points.

An Ceann Comhairle

They may be very important points but they can be raised at some other time. They cannot be raised on this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Treacy

One of the most effective ways of relieving the chronic situation in respect of fishermen's falling incomes is to permit limited fishing in the Celtic Sea especially for smaller boats. I know it is a matter that the Minister has been considering but he has been doing so for a long time and, in the meantime, hardship and suffering are accruing to the fishermen and their families.

These are practical suggestions by way of help. It is not as if they are in conflict with EEC regulations because we know that the British are subsidising their fishing industry to the tune of very many millions of pounds annually. The French are subsidising a fuel scheme for their fishermen and many other countries are doing likewise. Therefore it is a shame and disgrace that our Minister has not done something similar long ago to bring relief to our shattered industry. It is not a matter of appealing to the Minister today to promote the industry as such. We are now seeking in this House to hold on to its very survival, to retain the last remnant of the industry which is falling asunder before the Minister's eyes.

My colleague adverted to subhead E — Inland Fisheries. We are surprised that the boards of conservators are not fully operational. We are concerned that nothing tangible has been done to establish the headquarters of the regional boards. I understand from the Minister that the headquarters of the South Tipperary/West Waterford region will be in my home town of Clonmel. I see no evidence of the Minister or his Department taking any steps to acquire property there. I am not aware of any developments to establish headquarters in Clonmel. We would be grateful to the Minister if he would let us know what is happening. We know personnel have been appointed. Where are the premises, where is the organisation to which we all looked with such hope and confidence in respect of these new regional boards of conservators? There is a dragging of feet in this area. Quite likely it is all because of a shortage of money but, if that is the case, we should be told because we all understood that these boards and headquarters would be established before this year had expired. There are no signs of that.

Those are some sentiments I wished to express at this point. I would earnestly urge the Minister to avail of this unique opportunity to give some token of hope to the fishing industry, to give some indication to them of positive help, positive assistance in their plight in respect of an EEC fisheries policy which could provide adequate protection and eliminate these colossal imports of fish from countries outside the EEC. It is a very strange irony of fate that when we joined the EEC we deliberately removed the swaddling clothes of protection around our industry and decided to accept free trade. Many of us knew at that time that industrial graveyards would result. But, in respect of the fishing industry, how is it that the Minister and his colleagues in Europe permit such vast imports of fish into the EEC from outside countries?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is totally outside the ambit of this Estimate.

Mr. Treacy

I appeal to the Minister to recognise the position, the extent of inflation, the extent of the fall in prices to our fishermen, recognise the restrictions on their fishing in respect of herring, with the closure of the Celtic Sea, recognise the tremendous difficulties confronting them with regard to imports of fish from countries outside the EEC, to which I have referred, and to do something positive to help, to show these people we value this industry, that there is a future for them and that this Government are playing their part.

With so many erstwhile Opposition Deputies, now Ministers, pulling at the leash to be in charge of fisheries one would imagine that we would have now a 50 mile limit, that we would have prosperity in abundance for our fishermen, that everything in the garden would be lovely. Yet, within a few months of their assuming office, we saw one sell out after another, one abandonment of principle after the other. The plight of our fishermen and their families has become progressively worse under the present Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order in dealing with this matter.

Mr. Treacy

I ask the Minister now to face up to that reality, tell the industry what he is prepared to do to help them in their awful dilemma. I repeat that it is not a matter of appealing to the Minister to expend more moneys, as such, on the advancement of the present situation in the industry but rather to strive desperately to save what we have before it becomes extinct altogether.

Mr. Hegarty

I believe that this Estimate has to do with staff rather than fishermen and that the money, in so far as it goes, probably is necessary in those areas. There does not appear to be much in it for the fisherman. That is very disappointing, especially coming from a new Minister who admitted candidly that he did not know much about it when he assumed office. He must know by now that this industry is in dire straits. I place emphasis on the word "dire" because everywhere we public representatives go we meet fishermen who tell us that unless something is done quickly they will be out of business.

We must ask: what is the Fisheries Ministry all about? It is not about staff, a large building, about civil servants or even about a Minister; it is about fishermen and fishing. I see absolutely nothing in this for fishermen. It frightens me to see how little we are doing at present to ensure the very survival of these people against the massive Dutch, French and continental fleets literally raping our waters under our eyes in spite of the best efforts of our navy. They are offshore every evening taking shelter, as they are entitled to do, every morning they drop their nets and fish, and before we can ring anyone they have gone.

We must insist on proper fishery protection. Over the years our fishermen have never abused fish stocks. We have been the guardians of these stocks and it is because of the responsible attitude of our fishermen that we have stocks which are the pride of the world. Because of over-fishing the Dutch and the French have not got any. It is our job to keep them out and the Minister, in conjunction with the Minister for Defence, must provide adequate patrol vessels to see that this is done effectively.

A lot of worthwhile work has been done on harbour improvement but there are many small harbours in a neglected condition, perhaps because the boats using them are small. I refer specifically to Ballycotton, about which I have approached the Department repeatedly to get the harbour made safe. Thirty to 40 families depend on small boats there but these boats are unprotected from the Atlantic and I appeal to the Minister to get that harbour made safe before the height of the winter and the bad weather. The work would not cost a substantial sum. All we need is the will to have it done.

I was interested in a reference to oysters. I should like to think that the whole business of pollution control and environmental protection would be put in the hands of the Minister for Fisheries. There must be control immediately of the situation in Cork Harbour which has one of the largest oyster beds in Europe. It is in danger of obliteration by raw effluent. When I approached the engineers concerned they told me it was the concern of the owners of the oyster beds, that they should have the oysters washed and cleaned. "We will pollute them but you will clean them" seems to be their approach. The Department of the Environment are supposed to protect us from pollution but it seems to me they have no interest in it at all. Pollution control should be taken out of their hands and given to the man interested in fish. The oyster fishery in Cork is a multi-million pound industry. Those involved in it are courageous people and they are right to insist on proper treatment. Cork harbour is more a lake than a harbour because the water rarely changes. I appeal to the Minister to look into the matter. When those of us who are fighting for the protection of oyster fishing in Cork Harbour make our voices heard we are told that we are irresponsible, that we are holding up a housing scheme in Midleton.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is moving away from the Supplementary Estimate. I cannot see any mention of oysters among the subheads.

Mr. Hegarty

They are on page 2. I will not keep the House much longer.

An Ceann Comhairle

You did pretty well on the oysters.

Mr. Tully

He came out of his shell.

Mr. Hegarty

There were references to salmon stocks. Good work has been done in this respect and we on the Blackwater are showing how it can be done. In view of the responsible attitude of the Blackwater fishermen I am disappointed the Minister has seen fit to cut down the number of licences, I thought the reverse would be the case because of the caring attitude of the fishermen there. Not only do we preserve our own stocks but we have some for sale, if Deputy White wants any. The responsible attitude of the fishermen in Youghal and Ballycotton should ensure that they would get more and not fewer licences.

Another matter that worries me is that it is extremely difficult to find out what is on board Dutch vessels off our shores because when they are boarded all that can be seen are blocks of solid ice. Have we come to any agreement in Europe to the effect that when cargoes arrive back at their destination they can be policed by somebody from here?

An Ceann Comhairle

Again the Deputy is going away from the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Hegarty

I hope I have made my point. When we come to make rules about inshore fishing I hope we will exclude small boats. As chairman of the Fishery Sub-Committee of the Council of Europe I have made a special case for small open boats because those using them are traditional family fishermen and they should not be included in embargoes. They are being penalised by the same rules governing bigger boats. This problem is peculiar to Ireland and I hope it will be given special attention by the Minister.

Mr. Donnellan

I want to deal with a particular Galway fishery, the St. George Fisheries in the Clarenbridge, Ballinderrean, Kinvara district. Today I was given a written reply to a parliamentary question in which I asked if that fishery had been sold. I asked the Minister if he was aware that a French company are reported to be in the process of purchasing it and if he would give an undertaking that the new central fisheries board would purchase it. His reply was in the negative, that the St. George Fisheries is a private one, that the shares were sold recently — the first we in Galway heard of it. The reply stated that the powers of the central board extended only to acquisition of fisheries for the implementation of development programmes. It also stated: "As the St. George Fisheries is not the subject of such a development programme the central fisheries board have no authority to acquire it".

Representations have been made to the Minister's office during last week regarding this fishery. At a recent meeting we were asked to communicate with the Department with a view to having the Department acquire this fishery for the benefit of local fishermen, some of them are part-time farmers. There are possibly 250 of those men in that area. It appears that a meeting was held between some interested parties. I believe BIM were represented at that meeting, which was held about ten days ago. Nothing fruitful came out of it because the people particularly interested were not invited to it.

I see no provision in the Supplementary Estimate for purchasing this fishery. I am expressing the views of the fishermen in that particular area. This fishery is along the coast at Ballinderrean, Kinvara, and is known as the St. George fishery. There are already two public fisheries there, one east and one west of this one. It was discovered by local fishermen in the early forties. A Dean of St. George later claimed possession of it. It was claimed that it was handed down by the people who were in occupation of the country years ago. The Dean of St.

George and other people formed a company under the Fishery Act, 1959, for the purpose of acquiring a fishery so that a licence would be granted to them by the Department of Fisheries. If within a specified time of ten years they did not develop that fishery it was to revert back to the former position. Title could not be proved at that time.

As far as I am aware, this fishery is now being sold to a French consortium. Why did the Minister allow this to happen? Will he have the case investigated? In view of the fact that it is an asset to the local people and that 50 per cent EEC grants are available for the development of such a fishery, why did the central fisheries board or the Minister not purchase this fishery in order to develop it? I would like to refer the Minister to the debate on the Second Stage of the Fisheries Bill, 1979, volume 316, column 212 of the Official Report of 18 October 1979, when he said:

Provision has also been made for the acquisition of fisheries and rights of way by agreement or compulsorily. These acquisitions will be subject to the payment of compensation and there is also provision for appeal against compulsory acquisitions. It is not envisaged that fisheries efficiently managed will be compulsorily acquired.

This fishery was not efficiently managed and it was not compulsorily acquired or any attempt made to buy it.

The people of that area are very disappointed at the attitude of the Minister to date. Possibly because of what I have said here today, because of representations which have been made to him already and some which will be made to him later, the Minister may look into the matter. The area of ground in question is 810 acres. When one takes into consideration that the income from an acre of fishing ground is about ten times the value of that obtained from an acre of land, this fishery should be acquired. When the Minister got this portfolio he said he did not know a lot about fisheries but he would learn. Possibly he started from a good beginning. I am not well acquainted with fishing and fisheries but I am aware for a number of years that many of our fisheries, both inland and along the coast, are owned by non-nationals. There is a lot said in the House and outside it about the occupation of part of our country, which is officially in the hands of a foreign power but we allow people to own the best part of our own fishing industry.

Will the Minister look into this case and have the St. George Fisheries acquired for the Galway people as well as for the rest of the people? It is reported that a French concern have bought this fishery. If a comparable situation arose on the coast of Brittany or on the coast of any other EEC country, would Irishmen be allowed to purchase in the same way as Frenchmen have purchased in this case? Will the Minister look into this matter immediately, because the longer it is left the worse the situation will become?

Mr. Tully

I do not know if the Minister is aware but a few years ago a fishmeal factory was erected at Mornington. It was closed and is in the process of being sold and used for something else. It is situated on the estuary of the Boyne and the Northern Ireland sea is available for boats using that factory. What effort was made to try to keep it in operation? I know that springing this on the Minister is unfair and he may not have the information available. Very substantial funds were invested in that factory by the Government. I am anxious to know what planning went into it, when it started to get into trouble, and what effort was made to ensure that it would be kept in existence? Perhaps the Minister might be able to give a reply to this.

Mr. Fox

I recognise the Minister's concern for the part of his portfolio dealing with the Supplementary Estimate and his deep concern for the advancement of fisheries generally. I should like to comment on certain aspects of the Department's operations particularly in relation to herring fishing in the Celtic Sea. This fishery is of very great importance to all the fishing ports along the east coast, in particular to the fishermen from Balbriggan, Skerries and, to a lesser extent, those from the smaller harbour of Loughshinny. These three ports have considerable fleets and at certain times of the year the fishermen are dependent largely on herring fishing.

Herring fishing in the Irish Sea goes back a long time. In the middle of the last century Skerries in terms of fishing was the most important landing and trading port in these islands. At that time the trade in herring was carried on by local lubbers and the fish was sold throughout Europe. The landings were substantial and that continued to be the situation up to the turn of the century. Paradoxically, with the introduction of the internal combustion engine and the more modern fishing boats which that development brought about, this herring fishing ceased. The question posed is this. Since that was the situation with the more primitive methods in use in the middle of the last century and with the only power being by way of sail, what is the ground for saying that the more modern fishing methods are responsible solely for the decline in the herring stocks? There is a genuine commercial question here as to the validity of that argument. I suggest that the question be considered objectively and that the position of the total closure of the Sea so far as the east coast fishing fleets are concerned should be reexamined. Herring stocks, if fished heavily, tend to breed more quickly whereas if they are fished lightly, the fish take more time in coming to maturity so that it is older when processed. This is an area which should be considered strictly from a commercial viewpoint. The more altruistic characteristics that may be taken into consideration by the scientists should be considered in a very critical manner.

Therefore, I ask the Minister to reconsider this Celtic Sea area question in view of the difficulties that are being faced by the fishermen who depend on herring fishing for a substantial part of their yearly earnings. If this area of activity is to be cut off from them the difficulties they are experiencing will become worse. It is common knowledge that the courage displayed by the fishermen in investing in modern equipment and in attending courses for the purpose of equipping themselves to handle this modern equipment carries with it a very heavy burden of repayment. Therefore unless every opportunity is made available to them to meet these repayments their difficulties, which very often are due to circumstances that are totally outside their control, will continue. These men work seven days a week and very often for periods of 24 hours at a time. We do not hear any talk of industrial disputes so far as they are concerned. If the fish is available they seek it out.

Fishing is an activity that represents a considerable source of foreign earnings. A very large proportion of the herring landings find their way to European and other markets. Therefore, the work of the fishermen must be viewed in the light of their contribution to the national economy and also in view of the fact that they are positive earners of livlihoods in what is a very high-risk area.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is going outside the scope of the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Fox

I thank the Chair for drawing my attention to this, but the points I am raising are very important so far as this Supplementary Estimate is concerned. Naturally, the catches have to be brought ashore at some point. In this context it is worth noting that harbour facilities on the east coast in particular are being improved dramatically. The extensive works being undertaken at Howth, for instance, are the result of a report made some years ago by the Dane, Bjuke. He examined the fishing industry around the coast and recommended that Howth be developed as a major fishing port. unfortunately, when Bjuke was preparing his report he did not examine the facilities of Skerries nor take into account the fact that very close inshore there is a depth of water greater there than anywhere else on the east coast. I refer specifically to that area on the north-western side of Skerries harbour where there is a depth of 30 feet of water within 100 yards of the shore. I would refer the Minister to a survey that was undertaken some few years ago by the Skerries Fishermen at their own expense. This exercise was for the purpose of demonstrating the situation I have outlined. It is possible to establish a deep-water port at Skerries at relatively small cost. The materials for the construction of the port are very close at hand in the form of substantial limestone deposits within a mile or so of the possible location of a major fishing harbour.

So far as fish landings are concerned, the position is that even with the modern trawlers and with the improvements that are being effected, the fishermen, will find it extremely difficult in certain wind conditions to avail of the substantial amounts of money that are being spent on this location. The harbour at Balbriggan is in a similar position. Considerable moneys would need to be spent in order to put that harbour into an acceptable condition for the fleet that are using it now. The surface of one of the piers is such that it is impossible for drivers to take trucks down the harbour either to deliver oil for the boats or to collect the catches from the moored boats. The large stones and the potholes and the general bad condition of the south pier of that harbour are a source of constant concern to the fishermen who use it. In other words, another location for this fishing fleet is in a state of disrepair and needs to be looked at.

The big problem about both harbours is that they are under the control of Dublin Port and Docks Board. Since the board derive little or no revenue from the harbours they have no direct interest either in their maintenance or in their improvement. The board are an independent authority. Consequently, they do not have to answer to anybody for their operations. This situation makes it impossible for the fishing fleets in those locations to expand and to operate in an efficient manner at the time of catches being landed.

In these circumstances I suggest that the control of the two harbours be removed from the jurisdiction of the board and taken over either by the Department or by some other body who will do what is necessary to make sure that the harbours fulfil the function which the fishermen require. It is regrettable that this function is not being fulfilled. In one harbour there are more than 20 boats while in the other there are almost 30. This represents a considerable volume of employment in both locations, but for as long as Dublin Port and Docks Board control the harbours they will not function efficiently.

Another problem in relation to fishing in the Irish Sea is the median line which runs up the Irish Sea and then curves in very smartly towards the Mourne mountains. This median line is of great concern to fishermen on the entire east coast.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is dealing with matters that are not in this Supplementary Estimate. They would be appropriate to the general Estimate. We can only deal with the headings in the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Fox

I thank the Chair. Nevertheless this matter is important to fishermen who operate in the Irish Sea——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair accepts that it is important but it can be raised on the general Estimate.

Mr. Fox

I ask the officials and the Minister to take note of these points because they are of grave importance. If the fishermen do not have conditions in which to operate efficiently, obviously there will be problems. Difficulty arises with regard to the median line and I request that the matter be looked at so that some improvements can be made to the situation.

In general, I should like to congratulate the Minister on his attitude towards the fishing industry. I know he is deeply concerned about the fishermen and will do everything possible to help them. I hope the good work he has started will continue.

Mr. Deasy

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Supplementary Estimate. It may be limited but it is nice to be able to speak on fisheries because we have not had an opportunity for a long time to discuss these matters in this House. There are many aspects of the fishing industry that need to be aired and this is the only national forum where we can do this.

The limitations of the Supplementary Estimate are such that my comments will have to be restricted. Nevertheless, there are a number of items of interest that deserve comment. Under subhead D. (1) the grant-in-aid to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara has been increased by £24,000 under the heading of administration and current development. I should like to put a question to the Minister. Do An Bord Iascaigh Mhara serve any useful purpose in the running of the Irish fishing industry or have they outlived their usefulness? It is the opinion of the vast majority of fishermen that this agency, which was set up to help the industry to develop, has not functioned as was intended originally. Perhaps the time has come for a new attempt to be made to form a development agency that would truly look after the best interests of the fishing industry.

In reply to a question here last week I was told that of the 400 people who have loans for boats from An Bord Iascaigh Mhara more than 280 are in arrears with their payments. I do not blame the board completely for that situation. The blame lies with the manner in which the affairs of the industry are being run, or rather are not being run. There is a serious omission so far as the marketing and processing of fish are concerned. In my view the work of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara is not up to standard. There is an almost unanimous view in the fishing industry that they are not serving the purpose for which they were established. Serious thought must be given to the idea of disbanding An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and setting up an agency that will promote the fishing industry in a dynamic and successful way. The fact is that we are importing almost as much fish as we are exporting — and we are a maritime nation. We are importing more processed fish than we are exporting. The board was set up to promote the marketing and processing of fish and it is a sad state of affairs to find that we are almost net importers rather than net exporters. Even where we succeed in exporting fish and even where we sell on the home market, the price is so bad that one wonders about the functions of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara in the marketing area.

Subhead C (1) refers to the sea fisheries development programme and it notes that there is an additional sum of £30,000 involved. We are told the additional expenditure is necessary to meet the cost of boat hire in connection with additional herring surveys in the Celtic Sea. It states that the surveys are necessary to provide essential data on the state of the herring stocks. We know that the state of the herring stocks is not satisfactory and that there is a need for constant monitoring. We realise that the limited stocks in the Celtic Sea should not be over-fished. However, they have been over-fished. This kind of survey should have been carried out 20 years ago; the stocks should have been controlled and the over-fishing should have been banned at that time. In the view of fishermen there are sufficient stocks in the Celtic Sea to allow the small boat fishermen off the south coast to earn a decent living without unduly affecting the stocks in question.

Debate adjourned.