Last Thursday I spent a short time dealing with a few matters that had arisen on the Supplementary Estimate. I indicated that so many issues had been raised that I would take the full time available to me to deal with them in a comprehensive manner. Many groundless allegations were made and the Deputies who made them took off to the hills and were not present to listen to some of the explanations I had to give, and to listen to some of the facts.
Supplementary Estimates, 1980. - Vote 44: Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £26,266,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December 1980, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Posts and Telegraphs).
It is becoming a habit to have allegations made in this House when people are not here to listen to them.
I am glad Deputies are here this morning to listen to some of the facts. If Deputy Harte does not want to listen to some of the facts and if he wants to indulge in fairytales——
I am putting that on record.
The Minister without interruption.
I am giving the facts.
The Minister should address himself to the subject before the House.
That is what I am doing. The Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is before the House. Wild allegations were made last week and some of the people who made them are now here so perhaps it is as well to deal with some of them first. The most serious allegation, an allegation of corruption, was made against the civil service. Then it was watered down to political influence and political interference in the matter of the appointment of trainee installers.
On a point of order, no allegation was made against the civil service. It was made specifically against the Minister and the Minister of State.
I said it was watered down subsequently to political influence.
The Minister without interruption.
I did not interrupt Deputy Deasy.
This is very important. There was no allegation against the civil service.
It is a very important issue and it should be cleared up fully to the satisfaction not only of Deputies but the Department, the unions and the public at large.
It was an allegation against the Minister and the Minister of State.
I do not want a debate across the House. The Minister is in possession and he should be allowed to speak without interruption.
Is it not true that they were appointed on a political basis?
The Deputy had an opportunity to listen on Thursday but he was not here. The situation in relation to the trainee installers is that there were about 1,200 successful candidates at the interview. There are three tests on which trainee installers are taken on: an interview, a medical test and cross reference.
And the fourth is to be a member of the Fianna Fáil Party.
The only test referred to by Deputies opposite was the interview. I was accused of not following the usual practice in the appointment of trainee installers. I admit I did not follow the practice adopted in previous years for this reason; I was left short of personnel in the Department because recruitment was banned during the period of office of the Coalition Government. After recruitment it takes a couple of years to train people. As the applicants became available off the list after an interview, a medical examination and cross reference, I took them on to have them trained immediately.
Why were people taken on from lower down on the list?
Wait for it. If I am to be condemned for not following the practice, so be it. I was accused of not changing any of the old practices and of not doing anything to improve the situation. This is an area where I took the initiative. If I am to be condemned for that, so be it. I did it in the interest of getting people into the jobs as soon as possible and of getting them trained so that they would be available to improve the quality of the service, which was complained about on the last occasion, and also to improve the installation rate, which was complained about on the last occasion.
The Minister is the greatest. Where did he leave his boxing gloves?
Every applicant who was successful in that test is being taken on. Over 860 of them have been taken on or offered appointment already. The balance have been informed that they will be taken on. Everybody knows the position expect a few people on the opposite side of the House who tried to could the issue with charges of political influence and corruption. These people will not lose their seniority because they will be fitted in where they should be fitted in. If I am to be condemned for taking them on as soon as they were ready, rather than leaving people to wait for two months and rather than waiting for No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 to go through all three tests, so be it. I took them on because I knew we had enough places for all of them. I would have taken on more of them if possible but I did not have the training facilities to take them on. That is more than were ever taken on in the period of office of the Coalition Government. Nobody suffers. People are recruited earlier than they would be. They will be trained earlier and they will be on the job earlier. Their seniority is not affected.
This is a terrible indictment of the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Faulkner, now Ceann Comhairle.
The Minister does not deny that they were not taken on in order.
The Minister without interruption.
Deputy Harte is as wrong as he could be. He is dealing with one issue only when three issues are involved. He should not try to pick it up again because, if he does, he will be buried again as he was buried last Thursday.
It is not this side of the House the Minister is telling off. It is the Chair.
The Coalition put on an embargo for three years.
The Minister is criticising the Chair, who is a former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.
I am not. I will clear the air on that since the Ceann Comhairle is present. If the Deputy had been here last Thursday he would have heard the air being cleared. Deputy Deasy tried to colour the whole issue and say that during the period of office of the Coalition Government everything in the garden was rosy, more money was poured in, and more miles of cable were laid.
That is right.
It is easy to know Deputy Harte was in the hills of Donegal last Thursday or he would not say that.
There was a ban on recruitment and on special pay increases which led to the turmoil which my predecessor, who is now Ceann Comhairle, had to deal with subsequently. The Coalition Minister kept that under the carpet until he left office. Then it blew up in my predecessor's face and we know what happened. The record is there. The Coalition prevented the workers in the Department from looking for their lawful rights under the C and A scheme. They banned recruitment during their period in office and we know what happened.
How many people were taken on out of turn and received letters from Fianna Fáil Deputies telling them they would be taken on?
The Minister without interruption.
That allegation about trainee installers is typical of what we hear from the other side of the House.
It is true.
At Question Time Deputy Deasy asked me a question about telephones being out of order in Navan and jobs being at risk. I informed him that the telephone service had been fixed on 14 October. He asked me was I aware that it had broken down again and was out of order. When I left the House at 25 minutes to 4 o'clock I rang both lines and both lines were working. Deputies on the other side of the House should substantiate their allegations.
On a point of information ——
They should not speak loosely as they did on the previous occasion when they tried to cast a reflection on me and my staff. When I left this Chamber I rang both numbers and both numbers were working. At 3.25 p.m. I was told that they were not working and that they had not been fixed.
The Minister is evading the issue.
On a point of information——
Take your medicine.
This is disorderly. Would the Deputy please resume his seat?
What I said is 100 per cent correct. The telephone system in question had been out of order the previous week.
The Deputy is being disorderly. Will the Deputy please resume his seat?
The Deputy is totally disorderly and he knows he is wrong.
I am 100 per cent correct.
(Interruptions.)
If the Minister checks the facts he will find that I am correct.
Only one question remains to be touched on in relation to the appointment of Department of Posts and Telegraphs installers and it is that a question has been raised in my mind by the Deputy as to the confidentiality of the boards. How can any individual outside of the civil service know where he was placed on an interview board? This is a fundamental question which must be looked at.
(Interruptions.)
The Minister will start a witch hunt to know who squealed on him.
(Interruptions.)
I want to hear the Minister without interruptions until the end of his speech.
They do not want to hear facts.
I answered representations from Deputy O'Keeffe on trainee installers and he got a few in.
(Interruptions.)
Will the Minister of State please desist?
Just to get those loose allegations out of the way, the main areas raised were installations, the waiting list, the quality of service and details of the development programme. Side issues were also raised by other Deputies.
Before the Minister leaves the question of——
I am sorry, Deputy, we cannot have this. This is disorderly.
I listened to the Deputy make his case——
It is completely disorderly to interrupt the Minister when he is speaking.
I would ask that the Director of Public Prosecutions be asked to investigate the allegations made——
This is totally disorderly.
The truth has hurt Deputy Deasy.
Deputy, please.
——principally against the Minister and the Minister of State.
The Deputy should not try to bring another red herring into the issue. He knows he is wrong. He should sit down and listen to the truth. I know it hurts.
(Interruptions.)
The Minister has admitted that he called them out of turn. Why did he do it?
Let the Minister continue his speech.
I told the Deputy. But if I am to stand condemned for it let the people with the bad service, the people who are waiting for telephones and the people who are taken on give the Deputy his answer.
Can the Minister say why such people called out of turn received letters from their local Fianna Fáil Deputy whom they had not even approached. It is total jobbery.
Nonsense.
Will the Minister continue his speech and not answer disorderly interruptions?
I was accused of making fancy euphoric promises at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis, on television and on radio. Deputy Deasy said that the installation of 60,000 telephones a year was a nice concept, a nice idea, but no more than that. Some of the Deputies opposite were not here the last day to hear the reality which was——
On a point of order.
——that I was accused of making crazy promises that could not be fulfilled. I will go back to what I said——
Deputy Harte, on a point of order.
Seeing that the Minister is making a big issue out of people not being here, perhaps we could have a quorum.
If the Deputy were here he would not be asking the questions he is asking because they were answered.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,
The Minister will continue without interruptions.
The three main issues raised in the debate last week related to telephone installations which incorporates the waiting list, the quality of service and details of the development programme as raised by the various Deputies. As I said last Thursday in answer to a parliamentary question put down by Deputy Corish the figures for installations for the first nine months this year are 44,744 and in relation to the first nine months last year they were 23,412. That is a clear indication of what is going on this year. It is not as Deputy Deasy says a nice concept. It is solid proof, if that were needed, of the progress being made in the installations field. That raises the question of the size of the waiting list.
Why does it take six years——
If the Deputy does not want to listen to the Minister will he please leave the House? This is total defiance of the Chair.
There is a waiting list of 94,000 but of that about 70,000 applied this year. That is the greatest demand made in a single year for telephones. The concept of putting in 60,000 telephones this year, 80,000 next year and 100,000 the year after was treated as euphoric promises by me being carried away in the heat of the moment last February. It is clear to everybody now that the target of 60,000 telephones was not the fairytale story that Deputies opposite and others thought it was. It has now become a reality.
I am glad to hear it but why does it take six years to get a telephone in Letterkenny?
The figure of 80,000 telephones next year is not as crazy a figure as people might think because on the recent figures handed to me only yesterday our installation rate at the moment is running at 1,750 per week. If we take a 50 week working year, allowing for bank holidays and so on, we would have an annual installation rate of 87,500. What I started out to do last February and have continued during the year is to build up the momentum of installations so that it could reach the figures. This is vitally necessary to make an impression on the waiting list. The momentum has been built up and we hope to increase it next year. The projected figures were not crazy.
Last February I was accused of projecting fantastic figures but it is interesting that the people over the far side who accused me of that have in recent months switched their attack from the number of telephone installations to the quality of the service, to the question of whether we should install telephones at all, and to the question of whether the infrastructure is capable of coping. This is like an each way bet, putting both sides against the middle.
The Deputies cannot have their loaf and eat it. Deputy Tully said last May on the Estimate that if we put in 60,000 telephones he would clap us on the back. The people over there however would not dream of things like that. Even their Leader at Question Time said that when his Government were in office they had increased the installation rate by two and a half times over a period of four years, quoting a figure of 17,000 to 34,000. I have all the lists and I would have to go back to the early seventies to find a basis for the 17,000 figure which the Deputy was talking about. The figure for the year before the Coalition took office was actually 25,000. If one multiplies 25,000 by two and a half one would arrive at 62,500. The highest number that the Coalition Government ever put in was 38,000. If that is the way that Deputy does his figures I am not surprised that he got so many figures wrong in the past. The record does not show that the Coalition doubled the telephone installations in a four year period. There is no point in throwing out figures like that. I deal with facts not with fairytales. I will accept constructive criticism, ideas and advice from every Member of this House but I deplore the attitude of coming in here with half-baked stories. Deputy Deasy says that he has his contacts. If the Deputy has them he should present the facts in total, not in selective statistics.
I was accused of not giving the public enough information or telling them the facts. Many people come to me in clinics and tell me that a telephone line passes their house and ask why they cannot have an installation. The fact that a telephone line passes a house does not mean there is capacity there to connect one in. People think because a line passes their house it is the same as an ESB line and that one can tap into it and get the service. That is not the position. For every subscriber who is to be connected there must be a second pair of wires running from the exchange through a cable, perhaps a multiple cable. The cable must contain a separate pair of wires for every subscriber so that his privacy can be protected. If one were to break into a telephone wire running along the road in which there was no capacity there would be that problem. We often hear talk about ten subscribers on the one line listening to the one telephone. That is not the position. In addition, the fact that a a line runs by a house does not in itself mean there can be a service. Any Deputy or anyone else who does not convey that message to the public should be put right.
Why does it take six years to get a telephone in Letterkenny
I would not like to remind the Deputy who was in power six years ago. His own Leader was the man who said that they would multiply the installation rate——
The Minister's Government have been there for two and a half years.
If they had it on demand at the time, as they would like us to believe they had, the Deputy would not be waiting six years for a telephone. He would have had it two or three years ago. We are not going to enter into the nitty-gritty of Donegal or anywhere else here but we are dealing with the subject on a national basis. There will be 60,000 installations, and hopefully in excess of that figure, this year. There will be 80,000 by next year, and hopefully I will exceed this figure. These are the kind of connection figures needed to put a dent in the waiting list.
Hear, hear.
/Deputy Deasy made allegations about putting in telephones without having the infrastructure. The objective set in the development programme is to double the size of the network in a period of five years. What is involved in that and where will there be improvements in the infrastructure? It starts with sites, buildings, trunk exchanges, local exchanges, trunk cabling and local cabling. All that goes to make up the national network of the telecommunications service.
The position regarding sites is that we needed something in excess of 450 to complete the programme. All of the sites have been identified. Most have been purchased and the rest are under negotiation. There are only 18 sites to be located. Most of the others have been purchased and transferred or are in the process of legal transfer. Some are in the course of negotiation.
In regard to buildings, the position is that we need something like 540. Up to 233 have been built or are in the course of being built. Approximately one-third are going out to tender or are at an advanced planning stage. There is no hold-up on buildings or sites. As regards trunk exchanges, in my opening statement on this Estimate I named the key centres in the network that needed telephone exchanges. Apparently they fell on deaf ears. I know where they are and if anybody read my statement at the time he would know where they are. Most of the key switching exchanges are on order and the first of these, which is a new digital exchange, will be installed in Athlone in June-July next year. This is the start of the new digital exchange programme upon which I took a decision last February, to switch from the existing technology of crossbar and go into the modern era of digital exchanges which, when we have our programme completed, will raise the standard of the service up to, if not surpass, that of our EEC partners.
The provision of local trunk exchanges that serve into the main switching centres is being tackled vigorously. Up to 280 of the smaller exchanges needed for the conversion of the network to automatic are on order or are in the course of installation. It is not a question of simply putting in 60,000 telephones and ignoring the infrastructure and framework of the whole operation. What is being done is to bring along each and every section that makes up the infrastructure on a planned basis. It is no good at the end of the day if any section is left out or left without attention. All that would happen is that seven-eighths would be working and one-eighth missing. If that was the case no national network could function and all the investment of earlier years would be set at naught.
As I have said, all but 18 of the sites have been purchased; the massive building programme which is a major contributor to the construction industry is well under way; trunk exchanges are on order; subscriber exchanges are on order and as they are installed we will see a progressive improvement in the telephone service.
In bringing in the Estimate I was criticised about a figure of £23.4 million for sites and buildings and asked why it could not have been envisaged at the beginning of the year and why the Estimate had to be increased by such a phenomenal amount. The explanation is simple. The procedures associated with the provision of building have been streamlined with the introduction of working parties in the Office of Public Works and in my Department. They have monthly meetings and work to a planned programme. The result of that planned, monitored approach has been that at the end of this year we needed £23.4 million because so much progress had been made in that area. That progress will continue into next year. There is no point in saying that the infrastructure is being left without anything being done to it and the concentration is on telephone installation. I would welcome any constructive criticism that can be offered from the Opposition but I will not wear destructive hypocritical criticism. People did not bother to find out the facts. They did not want them. All they wanted was to try to give a false impression not only in the House but to the public.
I heard Deputy Deasy speaking about the amount of money put into buildings and sites in the period of his party's term in office. I am not a person to look back, nor did I enter this Supplementary Estimate to look back, but when progress over the last few years is raised I have no option but to answer the criticism. He talked about the great contribution made in the area of sites and buildings, but if he did he ignored facts. The facts are that in the four years that they were in Government they put in just less than half the money that we put in in this year alone. That puts it into perspective. I do not have to go into the details. In four years of the one Government the amount of money thrashed out here by Deputy Deasy in relation to their contribution to the infrastructure was so massive that he thought it worth mentioning. In 1979 £14.9 million was invested by this Government in infrastructural development, or double in 1979 for the whole four years of Coalition Government. In 1980 alone we have invested two and a half times more than the previous Government invested over a four-year period.
The absolute nonsense thrashed out here last week was that we gave the impression to the outside public that, so much money having been spent, the system should be right today. I have never set out to give the impression that there was an instant solution. There is not, and I said so in my opening statement here last Thursday. It has to be on a planned basis and it is only as the exchanges that I have spoken about as having been ordered are brought into service that there will be a progressive improvement in the quality of the service. It will not come by any waving of a magic wand.
Deputy Deasy claimed that because I was installing so many telephones now the service was deteriorating and that the local service in Dublin was a disgrace. Let me put some facts on the record in relation to the whole service. On the tests of local service in the Dublin area there is a three per cent failure rate in the local telephones. I have heard Deputies say in this House that when they go abroad they find it much easier to ring from Hamburg, London, Paris or Rome to their own house and they get through direct with no trouble at all, and why can we do it on an international service and not on the local service? That, of course, is ignoring the reality of the situation. No matter where you ring from abroad, Rome, Paris, Hamburg or anywhere else, you must come through the local service. When you arrive at the Dublin switching station you must come through the local service to get to your home, office and so on. To say that they can ring easily from abroad and get through every time and that you cannot ring from Dublin and get through every time is ignoring the reality. The call must find its way into the local services, into your house or your office, and if you can get it from abroad you can get it from here. To try to paint a picture of a collapse in the telephone service is absolute nonsence, rubbish and the Deputy knows that.
Our international service is of a fine quality, but it is not being left at that. Further investment is being made in it and within the next year to 18 months a new international exchange will be brought into service in Dublin which will add to the capacity of that. We know it is a good service and we recognise it as such and it is our aim to bring the local and trunk services up to the same quality.
In relation to the trunk service the Deputy said that people now were using the phone much less than they ever used it before because the capacity is not there, the service is on the point of collapse, it is only the tip of the iceberg and so on. What is the reality in relation to the usage of the telephone and the traffic in the telephone network? Recent surveys have shown that the increase in the telephone network is between 12 and 15 per cent. Does that show that people are using the telephone more or does it compliment Deputy Deasy's allegation that they are using the telephone a lot less? One thing that needs to be borne in mind is the allegation that telephone traffic has decreased, that subscribers were not using the telephone as much as they used to and that the whole thing is on the point of collapse. That is not so. There is an increase in telephone traffic of between 12 and 15 per cent.
What are we doing about improving the telephone network and the quality of service? As I said in my opening address, a new major exchange will be opening in Dublin towards the end of this year which will release into the network a substantial number of trunk lines both into and out of Dublin. I want everybody to put this in perspective and not to run away with the idea that this is the answer to all the congestion in the Dublin area. It is not, but it will make a good contribution in releasing additional capacity into the network and relieving the pressure and congestion in the various areas around Dublin. When it comes into full working order over a period of some months, then you can expect more relief in the Dublin area, but it is only as the other exchanges which are on order are brought on stream that you will see a progressive improvement in the quality of the service.
What are we doing about trunk cables and local cables? No evidence is needed of that. For any Deputy of this House from any part of this country there is the ample evidence of the staff and vans of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in every country throughout the country. They are out on the roads laying the construction lines, erecting the poles, doing the cabling. They are being augmented, having got agreement from the unions on the employment of contractors to work side by side with them, mostly in the Dublin area. This is the progressive approach to the whole problem that is being taken. It is showing results and will show greater results next year and greater still the year after that. It will take this type of results to meet the escalating demands being made on the telephone service and on the traffic in the network in the number of applications that pour in daily to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.
I have listened to arguments that the service was on the point of collapse. I heard special notices being read from newspapers and I was asked if I ever read the papers. Of course I read the papers, and I want to put the false position in perspective. As a basis I will take the review body who sat and produced an excellent report in relation to the whole situation in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, who recommended what the objectives should be in relation to the number of faults and how the Department should react. The number of subscribers in our network is over 500,000. The review body set a target of one fault per telephone per annum which in effect means approximately 1,500 faults per day. At the end of the first six months this year we had got that figure down to just over 1,300, but because of the very bad weather that we had in July and August that figure went up again. We had a very bad August in relation to faults, so bad that I had to take people off installations and put them on fault repairs. Subsequent to August, having got the position under control, again in October we had disastrously bad weather. It is interesting to see from the records that 84 per cent above the average rainfall in October fell this year and everybody knows what effect that has on our underground network and the damage it can do. Deputy Deasy comes into this House and talks about three, four, five, six, ten or 20 cases — and I believe him — and says there could be 30 or 40 others who did not bother to put the notice in the paper. To put that in perspective the review body, who have been quoted extensively by many Members on the far side of the House, set the objective that it would be realistic for the Post Office to aim towards one fault per telephone per annum, which is 1,500 faults per day. In June and July it was well below that but the figure rose again in August. However, we are now marginally below that figure. Any one of these 1,500 people will see the position as being bad for business and for the whole network, but we must put things into perspective. The target set by the review body was 1,500 faults per day and our aim is to be well below that figure. This will happen only when all the projects I have mentioned come on stream.
Many people have asked why such damage is caused to the network by heavy rain and flooding. All our cables need to be pressurised against dampness. Already a pilot scheme has been carried out with great success in the Whitehall area and we have a programme to pressurise all existing cables over a three-year period. All new cables are jelly filled so that they will stand up to dampness. Another pilot scheme is being started in Cork where much damage is being caused by tidal conditions and we are optimistic that this operation will be successful. The situation regarding faults has been put clearly in perspective and there is no point in saying that the system is on the point of collapse — it is far from it. The evidence is available for anyone who wants to see it, but some people would prefer to come into the House and make glib statements and unsubstantiated allegations while ignoring the reality of the situation.
The quality of the service in relation to local calls is quite good and the failure rate is 3 per cent, although it is higher in the trunk situation. We are improving capacity in the trunks and local exchanges and we can then reduce the incidence of faults. The international service is quite good and investment is being made to ensure sufficient capacity for future needs. If I wished to do so I could bring in letters which have been received by the Department complimenting them on improvements in various areas.
We know the Minister is good at writing letters to himself.
I am not in that game. Some people like to quote from newspaper reports but they should get matters into perspective. The objective set by the review body was 1,500 faults per day and I can understand any person among that figure feeling as Deputy Deasy says.
Then we come to the figures tossed out about the length of the waiting list in various areas. In Waterford city, Deputy Deasy's constituency, the average waiting time is about six months, while in the county area it is 17 months.
That is the advantage of having the spokesman in the constituency. The Minister is afraid to leave it any longer.
The Deputy should not make weird allegations and cast aspersions on the staff. Anyone listening to the debate would think they were not capable of doing the job, but I have always maintained that they are capable and that we have the experience and expertise. We simply needed to give them the tools for the job. Money has been the problem in the past but this is not the case where the Fianna Fáil Government are concerned. They recognised that from the mid-seventies there was a build up of demand for telephones which necessitated the putting together of this development programme.
I have been asked what we are doing about the report of the review body and it is obvious that those who asked this question have not been following the trend of events. On receiving the report of the review body, my predecessor immediately acted on it. The recommendation was to set up a board for the telecommunications service. Both he and the Government felt that the postal service should not be put in a less favourable position and they decided to set up two interim boards, one for the telecommunications service and one for the postal service. That was done immediately. Last May I published a Green Paper which called for the widest public debate on the reorganisation of the postal and telecommunications services and set out how the task was being approached. It is a task of enormous magnitude because nearly 30,000 people will be moved from the civil service into the semi-State sector. Forty-two submissions have been received on the Green Paper and consultations have been carried out with every staff association and union and with the two interim boards. All these inputs have been considered and it is expected that the White Paper will be ready by January. Draft legislation is being prepared in conjunction with the White Paper and it is expected that this will be introduced in the House next year. Anyone who says that nothing is being done in relation to the report of the review body is living in a fool's paradise.
The matter of priority for applicants was raised by Deputy Hegarty and others. At present priority is afforded to 40 per cent of those on the waiting list and it would not make sense to raise that percentage. Deputy Hegarty has great appreciation of the problems existing in the service and he paid tribute in this House to the staff of the Department and the reaction he got when he contacted the Minister's office in relation to a problem in Cork where jobs were at stake. When this approach is contrasted with the approach of others, we can see who is serious about getting to grips with the problems. I take Deputy Hegarty's point about the priority list and I should like to extend it to include people who have one or two employees. However, the figure is set at five employees and until there is a general improvement in the situation it would make nonsense to extend the priority list.
Deputy Hegarty made some good suggestions about more extensive use of mobile exchanges. He mentioned the time when the Pope was in Ireland and the fantastic telephone service which was provided by the use of mobile exchanges in addition to the existing network. Most people fail to realise that during those few days the telephone network was not being used by the business community or by the public at large and this contributed to the success of the service provided. Already up to 60 mobile exchanges are in use and more will be used if the situation allows it. Where there is a problem of capacity there is no point in using a mobile exchange because it can help the situation only in certain circumstances. We have used them to the maximum and wherever the situation arises that demands their use in future, Deputy Hegarty can be assured that they will be used to the fullest possible extent.
Many Deputies said public telephones should be installed here, there and everywhere in rural areas and asked when there would be a change in policy. There has been a change in policy recently and the criteria have been changed. There must be some relationship to the revenue to be got from telephone kiosks if we are to incur the cost of installing them. It is not unreasonable to expect the local community through the local authority, to share some part of the burden of the cost in erecting a telephone kiosk in an area where the Department, having assessed the situation, feel revenue will fall far short of what they expect. In other words, central funds in the Department make their contribution to a social situation in a particular area and, in my view, it is not unreasonable to expect the local community, through their local authority, to make a contribution as well. The old criteria have been changed and as a result a long list of priorities has been established in an effort to bring kiosks into many areas where the Department have agreed and accepted that they will be provided. This change will take time; kiosks will not be installed overnight.
Deputy White asked about modernising coinboxes. He said he had been abroad and used coinboxes where a person could put in his money, he would not be cut off by an operator and the telephone call is not interrupted because he had to put in more money. Already 2,000 such coinboxes have arrived in the stores branch of the Department. One thousand are ready for installation. We will start to install them this month and progressively over the next few months in the areas where there is most demand for public coinboxes. That will be extended around the country but I would ask the Deputies and the public to bear in mind that there are 35,000 public coinboxes and they cannot all be changed overnight. Progress is being made in updating the type of coinboxes and the equipment for these boxes we have purchased. Deputies may have seen the new design of aluminium type telephone kiosks which hopefully will stand up better to vandalism and the equipment being installed is the best vandal proof equipment that can be got on the world market.
Many Deputies asked my views on public representatives making representations and not being given proper attention at local level. I hold the same view as the Deputies. Public representatives have the right to make representations and the right of access to whatever information is available. I have sent that message through my Department to ensure that public representatives are given all the information available but I would ask Deputies to consider the amount of pressure these people are working under. It is only reasonable to expect that at times the information the Deputies seek is not forthcoming as quickly as they expect.
Deputy McMahon complained about the siting of a sub-post office at Firhouse and said it was a ridiculous decision by my Department. When that sub-postmaster's job became available, we advertised and canvassed it and there was not a single applicant from the shopping area to which he referred. The only applicant found suitable was the person who got the sub-post office. It is crazy to accuse the Department of moving a sub-post office from A to B without having researched the facts. The same thing applies to the allegations he made about the telephones installed. He said he had not seen very many of them and wished the Deputies representing his area would make the same point here. He failed to recognise that only a week ago I answered a question relating to four housing areas in his own area, where there were 1,240 applicants. In reply I told him that in the Kilnamanagh estate, Tallaght, there were 500, Belgard Heights, Tallaght, 120, Kingswood Heights, Tallaght, 400, and Aylesbury Estate, Tallaght, 220 telephones installed. I also said it was expected that service would be provided for all these people by the end of this year or early next year.
I want to nail another myth which has been floating around this House. It is said that we are installing telephones which will not be working for six or nine months, that we are fooling the people and that we are taking their money. The procedure being followed at present is no different from the procedure that was always followed. It has always been the practice that we call people in advance to find out if they want to take up the contract being offered to them and then sign them up. The reason for this is that we must establish in advance a work programme for installation gangs of workers going out. To say that people were never called in advance is nonsense and to go further and try to convince the public that we are taking their money by supplying them with a telephone without providing a service is not true. No telephone is counted in my figures until it has been connected to the service. Anybody who has a telephone installed will be connected to the service within three months, at the maximum, and that is a rarity. If 60,000 telephones are being installed, of course you will find an underground fault or a faulty cable, but that is the exception to the rule. To paint this as a general picture is rubbish and Deputies know it. That is not the position and it never was.
Deputy Corish and others raised the question of postal matters and asked if I ever looked at the situation and if it had improved. I do not want to go back to the beginning of this year. We all know the industrial problems that beset the Department for a number of years, but the service has progressively improved all through this year and at this moment 85 per cent of first-class letters posted are delivered the following morning. That is an excellent service. Our aim is for a 90 per cent service. We are working towards that end and intend to achieve it. People should put this in perspective. Do our people ever go abroad and post letters? If they did, they would find out how long it takes to have letters delivered to Ireland. They would then appreciate the fine service we have. Let there be no doubt about it, we provide a first-class postal service, especially when we compare it with others. We had our problems in the past, but the service is being improved all the time. Do not let us be a nation of knockers. We should pay respect to the people who are doing the job and if they are not doing a good job we may then criticise them.
Last May Deputy Tully said that if I was able to provide 60,000 telephones he would clap me on the back. I am not looking for claps on the back. All I am saying is, where staff are doing a good job, recognise it. We all know what the problems are in any service, especially in an organisation of 30,000 people, but, in relation to the service they are giving, they are entitled to the respect and confidence of the people for whom they are acting. I was asked how many people received telephones under the free rental system for people living alone. The figure has now exceeded 10,300. I have not the exact figure. Some Deputies raised the question of giving priority to old people living alone in rural areas. Wherever possible they are given priority. I fully appreciate the need for communication between them and their relations. I know they are isolated and need a telephone. It is the policy to install telephones as quickly as possible in those circumstances.
Deputy Deasy raised the question of the recruitment of engineers and the shortage of engineers. There is a worldwide shortage of electrical engineers. He also asked what I was doing about remuneration which is so far out of line with comparable jobs in private industry. When I became Minister, the first thing I did was to look at this area because I fully recognised and appreciated that if we did not have the people to plan the job for us we would run into bottlenecks from the very start.
Already the remuneration of engineers in the Department has been adjusted twice this year, to bring them more into line with what is available elsewhere. The gap has been closed in so far as it can be closed. This has been done by the recruitment of civil and mechanical engineers to carry out duties which, up to now, were carried out by electrical engineers. We are supplementing our engineering force in that manner and by the promotion of sub-professional engineers. This is another step in the direction of supplementing our engineering personnel with people who have come up through the ranks in the area of executive engineers. The Government recognise it is a problem we have to face not alone in the Post Office but because of the great development in electronics and because we are now becoming one of the bases for electronic development in western Europe. We are going to face the problem increasingly in the future. The Government are very conscious of this; we have a sub-committee working out a programme as to how it can be overcome. The shortage is not as bad as it was. When I am speaking to students I quantify what the job opportunities are in the engineering fields in the Department. They are aware of them and are very anxious to help in whatever way they can because this is an area where young people can find job satisfaction.
With regard to the licensing of CB radio, as I said recently in answer to a Dáil Question, my Department are conducting tests on different types of citizen band radio equipment. I hope the technical investigation will be completed by the end of the year and that recommendations based on the results of these tests will be submitted for my consideration early in the new year.
Deputy White raised the question of licensing the 27 megahertz AM band and hoped this did not present any problems. It does present problems. I am not saying that they cannot be overcome. The 27 megahertz AM band seriously interferes with cable television. That has shown up in tests. It does not interfere so much with ordinary television. He also raised the question of what wattage would be provided. That will also be the subject of tests to be carried out. As soon as this information is available I will pass it on to the Deputies and to the CB users because I recognise that it is a good means of communication. We would like to accommodate them but we also have to protect the rights of the television viewers, who number 650,000.
I have taken every opportunity to go into the points raised by the various Deputies. It was unfortunate that we had to go back over the periods of other Ministers and other regimes. I prefer to look forward in an area where there is so much work to be done. I want to follow the plan I have laid out, the objectives which I set myself in last February. Some people said we made euphoric promises which could not be kept. I wish during this debate that people had taken the opportunity of producing evidence that we made promises which we were not able to fulfil. No such evidence was produced and it is obvious that there is no evidence available to prove that any promise that I made at the Ard-Fheis or anywhere else has not been fulfilled. I do not pretend to be the greatest Minister of all times, far from it, but the Post Office Users' Council said we in the Department do not say enough about what we are doing. We do not tell the public enough. When I try to inform the public I am accused of being egotistic, euphoric or putting on a theatrical performance. I am doing my best and will continue to do so. Deputy McMahon says I should not make grandiose speeches at dinner dances and that he would not accept them as evidence. I am not asking him to accept them as evidence. I am asking him to accept the solid evidence that has been produced throughout the debate and in various answers to questions. There is solid evidence available as to what has been and is being done, what is being planned and what our objectives are. I will continue to give all that information to the public. It is absolutely essential that that solution is endorsed by the users' council and the public are entitled to know what our targets are and how we are trying to achieve them.
I will continue to do that in spite of criticism because it is my duty to the public. There is no instant solution to the telephone problem. It is being done on a planned, progressive basis. The objectives we set last February are being continued. We are meeting the targets which we set. If we fall down in any area, we will openly and honestly admit it. That is the frank and honest approach that we have adopted and we will continue to do so.
The Minister has admitted that applicants for the position of trainee installers were not called in order of merit as decided by the interview board.
That is not what I said.
The union has insinuated that this was as a result of political influence. The Minister has not given a satisfactory explanation.
The Deputy should listen to what the Minister said.
At this stage Deputy Deasy is in order in asking a brief question but we cannot have statements.
That is not what I said. Perhaps I may be permitted to give an explanation, with the permission of the Chair, because it is an important point and should not be misrepresented. What I said is this: there are three tests that any young man looking for a trainee installer's post must undergo. There is the interview board, the medical examination and the other cross-references. All three are important. If he is picked by the interview board first, he must then undergo a medical examination and also his background references must always be checked before he is taken into the service. If he fails on either of the other two — it does not matter whether he was first, in the middle or anywhere else at an interview board — he is out. Therefore the fact that he is placed first at an interview board does not automatically entitle him to be recruited. I wanted that to be clear: if he fails the medical examination, he is out or, if he fails in the other area, he is out also. The first test is that carried out by the interview board.
If he passed all three why would he not be called in order of merit?
He is called, he is on the panel and it is merely a question of awaiting vacancies within the training capacity of the Department to take him on. There is absolutely nothing being done to any man who passed all three. Nobody will suffer on the seniority list. It was a question of my saying to the Deputy here today, to the public and to anybody else who wants to know, that I took the people as they were cleared by all three in whatever order they came to me. I took them, employed them and got them into the job as fast as possible. Some people do not pass through the other areas as fast as others. There may be questions that have to be checked, rechecked and so on. I am not prepared to wait and was not prepared to wait. What I am saying is that nobody has suffered, everybody has been put on a panel and everybody is being employed. There is absolutely no basis for either a charge of corruption or use of influence——
The union insinuated that that is not the case.
All are being taken on.
In order of merit?
Each and every one.
In order of merit?
Over 900 are in now and there are only about 200 left to be taken on——
Were they taken on in order of merit?
—in order of seniority. They will be placed in order of seniority. What amazes me is how the Deputy knows who was placed where at an interview board.
Wait now, the Minister——
So much for the confidentiality——
The Minister of State is not answering questions. We are moving on——
He is answering allegations.
No, it was the Minister who was in possession.
Vote put and agreed to.