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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Dec 1980

Vol. 325 No. 5

Private Members' Business. - Agricultural Incomes and Production: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy FitzGerald on Tuesday, 9 December 1980:
That Dáil Éireann recognises, in view of the decline in agricultural incomes and production, that there is an urgent need for special measures to aid agriculture, resolves that the following measures shall be introduced to that end:—
(1) the abolition and refund of the Resource Tax.
(2) the repeal of the Bovine Disease Levy,
(3) the abolition of rates on agricultural land,
(4) the introduction of a capital allowance against income tax for breeding stock,
(5) an interest subsidy for certain farmers and
(6) the reduction of stamp duty on transfer of agricultural property to young farmers and
therefore provides that, notwithstanding anything contained in Standing Order 119 (1) of the Standing Orders relative to Public Business or any decision made thereunder, a second reading shall be given to the Agricultural (Emergency Provisions) Bill, 1980 as presented.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
"Dáil Éireann recognises that farmers generally have been experiencing serious difficulties; welcomes the valuable consultations taking place between the Government and Farm Organisations in regard to these difficulties; applauds the range of financial and other measures already introduced by the Government to relieve the difficulties being experienced by farmers; acknowledges that these measures will encourage investment and improve farm incomes and provide a stimulus to agricultural production and notes that the Government are continuing to explore ways and means of further assisting the farming community and promoting the expansion of agricultural output."
—Minister for Finance.

Last night everyone seemed to agree that the farmers are going through a very bad time and I tried to assess why this is so. In the limited time available to me I will try to deal with this motion. The first point refers to the abolition and refund of the resource tax. As spokesman for agriculture I opposed the imposition of this tax. No matter how one looks at this, it is a wealth tax. My party have always agreed with a wealth tax, but not with a selective wealth tax which deals with only one section of the community. That is what happened here. Only farmers were asked to pay this wealth tax and in that sense it is unjust. I am not against a wealth tax but it should apply right across the board.

Some farmers who would never come under a wealth tax have been caught by this resource tax because it does not take into account their ability to pay. The bovine disease levy was imposed by a former Fianna Fáil Minister. At that time I spoke against it. Money is necessary for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis — nobody denies that — but this does not take into account a farmer's ability to pay. For that reason it is an unjust, selective tax. We encouraged farmers to eradicate these terrible diseases from their herds, and rightly so, but during the past year we have imposed a burden on them for doing that.

The abolition of rates on agricultural lands is fair. This Government in their wisdom decided to abolish rates on private houses. Rates in general are an unjust form of taxation because they do not take into account the ability to pay. I firmly believe a local authority should have their own form of income, otherwise they will lose their independence. I am a great believer in the independence of local authorities, but rates under the poor law system imposed 100 years ago have today little regard to people's ability to pay. For that reason I am prepared to support the third point in this motion.

I said last night that farmers, and small farmers in particular, were encouraged by the Department and by the advisory service to invest and borrow huge sums at 9 per cent and 10 per cent. They are now paying 15 per cent to 20 per cent. The only way these people can be saved from utter ruin is by subsidising their interest charges. Interest due is mounting and they will never be able to pay.

I agree that there should be a reduction of stamp duty on the transfer of agricultural property to young farmers. Our small farmers should be in a position to compete with the bigger farmers. The Labour Party have always believed this. The former Fianna Fáil Minister promised to introduce a Land Structure Bill. I believe we are getting a White Paper, although I have not seen it yet. There was a very good departmental report on land structure. We should build up our land banks so that people who have proved to be good farmers can be helped. There are many thousands of such people, young and not so young, who cannot get land because they cannot compete with the bigger units. Land Commission policy has been a fiasco. Deputies have been inclined to blame the Land Commission, but we never gave them the money to do the job, except what they raised by land bonds, and then we blamed them for not doing the job we wanted them to do. These are minimum requirements.

Last night the Minister for Finance said that more money had been paid out of the farm modernisation scheme than ever before and that there was confidence in farming. I respectfully submit that most of that money had been due by way of grants for over a year. That money had not been paid out in time. He said production was being maintained and appealed to farmers not to let their cow herd numbers run down. They are already run down. The number of cows is far fewer than last year, milk production has decreased and sheep numbers in the last ten years have dropped by about one million.

The Government have not done enough. If farming is not put on a firm basis many other areas of employment will fall. On behalf of a number of agricultural labourers in my constituency I want to tell the Minister that if farming is not in a good position these unfortunate people, who have always been the worst paid in our society, will not get what is and has been their due under the transfer of resources from Europe.

I speak in support of the amendment which stands in the names of the Minister for Finance and myself.

Like the Minister for Finance, I too would like, at the very outset, to emphasise once again that the Government fully recognise the seriousness of the difficulties, economic and otherwise, which are now being experienced by the agricultural industry. I have acknowledged publicly on several occasions that the problems are there and that the Government are concerned about them. I am well aware that 1980 has been a particularly difficult year for farmers. Apart from problems of an economic nature related to prices and costs, the year has been marked by exceptionally bad weather conditions. The Government are concerned especially about the implications of the present situation for farmer confidence and about the prospects for future development and expansion of the farm industry which is a vital sector of the national economy.

This is not any late conversion on the part of the Government. For quite some months now the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and myself have had several discussions with the farming organisations to see what practical steps could be taken to improve farm incomes. Very early on in those discussions, the Government responded in a very positive way to the problems facing farmers. We acted promptly and constructively within the existing financial and other constraints that must always be taken into account. We provide a wide range of measures designed to alleviate the present difficulties and to encourage renewed investment and expansion in the agricultural industry.

When I introduced a Supplementary Estimate in this House a few weeks ago I outlined the positive measures which had been taken. Those measures included the winter fodder scheme which has in fact produced a very definite and encouraging response from farmers, especially by first-time silage makers.

An extra £23 million under the farm modernisation scheme was also provided. We made provision for up to £100 million of foreign borrowing to enable the ACC and the associated banks to make loans to farmers at reduced rates of interest for both working capital and productive investment, as well as making special provision for young farmers. In addition, the ACC and the banks agreed to take a constructive and positive approach to the restructuring of loans to farmers faced with serious repayment problems. We had also the introduction of a beef suckler scheme which provided for a national subsidy for additional cows as well as the basic EEC subsidy for existing cows.

We greatly increased the headage grants under the disadvantaged areas scheme. The new rates of grant of £32 and £28 are about double the 1979 levels. We also implemented an increase in the subsidy under the mountain lamb extension scheme from £1.50 to £3 per head.

Under the new EEC regime for sheepmeat there will be the payment of a premium on ewes which can be about £7 per head in a full year, depending on market prices. We also had at that time a subsidy on the cost of the warble fly dressing and special assistance for Macra na Feirme, at their request, to encourage the organisation and operation of farm relief services.

In addition, we remitted the second moiety of rates for farmers in the £40 to £60 rateable valuation category and also arranged that farmers in temporary financial difficulties should not be pressed for rates this year.

The measures I have just outlined are largely the list of items put before us by the farming organisations at that time and during those negotiations. Almost to the final item the Government responded to requests made by the farming organisations then. Indeed, when I mention rates, I am very surprised to see a request to abolish rates coming from the Fine Gael benches. I was not aware of the rather sudden change of policy of that party on this important issue. I recall very clearly a statement made by the party spokesman on agriculture at a public meeting in Ballybofey in County Donegal less than two months ago which was in favour of the retention of rates. Why the sudden change of heart on this issue? Perhaps Fine Gael would prefer to forget that particular statement, as indeed they would like to forget everything that happened about that time in Donegal. In any event, this sudden switch clearly underlines Fine Gael's lack of sincerity in putting forward the suggestion that rates should be abolished or, for that matter, any other of the suggestions contained in this motion.

In the course of the debate on the Supplementary Estimate for my Department, some Deputies opposite described these measures in various disparaging terms—using expressions like paltry, useless and inadequate. Of course they were nothing of the kind. They were a genuine effort to help the farming industry in its immediate difficulties. These measures were brought in quickly and were indeed welcomed by the farming bodies as a practical and urgent response by the Government to the situation. Furthermore, those measures were designed to bring help to those farmers who were likely to be most in need of assistance. The £40 million provided for in that Supplementary Estimate reflects the tangible nature of the Government's reaction. That sum did not, of course, include any provision for the concession on rates for farmers in the £40 to £60 rateable valuation category—which will involve an extra £6 million or so.

Deputies opposite would give the impression that the outlook for agriculture in this country is bleak. Of course it is no such thing. I have every confidence that the farming industry in this country can enjoy a bright future. While there are difficulties at present—and there are difficulties also in many of the other member states of the EEC—we should not under-estimate the inherent strength of the industry and its ability to cope with occasional difficulties. Both the primary producers and the processing sector have made enoromous advances since we joined the European Community. There has been massive investment in the industry at farm level. The total State expenditure on grants under the farm modernisation scheme up to and including this year, reached £160 million. This represents a small proportion only of the total investment undertaken by farmers during those years.

It is quite evident therefore, that there have been very widespread and significant improvements on very many farms in this country in recent years. This leaves the industry better geared to withstand a certain degree of pressure and in a position to take off again as soon as conditions improve, For example, I was particularly interested, to note from the survey conducted by the RTE "Landmark" programme that the level of investment by farmers in buildings and land improvement in 1980 was as high as it had been in previous years. Furthermore, there are indications that, while capital investment may be somewhat lower in 1981, a good proportion of farmers still intend to carry out improvements in the coming year.

Equally there has been very substantial investment in recent years in the processing sector. As a result we have now in this country some of the most modern plants in Europe especially for the processing of meat and milk. I made these points not to discount in any way the present problems of the industry but to point to some of the positive aspects we have in our favour. There is a solid foundation to the farming industry, and I consider that we are entitled to have faith in its powers of recovery.

Our discussions with the farm organisations are continuing. It is hardly necessary for me at this stage to reassure farmers at large of the Government's concern about the situation in agriculture. We have already given an earnest of our concern and we are determined to do everything possible to overcome current difficulties. The prosperity of our agriculture depends nowadays to a great extent on decisions taken under the EEC's common agricultural policy. The EEC decisions of greatest impact for us are those which establish the prices that farmers receive for their produce. During the next few months our efforts will be concentrated on the negotiation of the prices package for 1981. In the course of these negotiations, I shall be stressing in the strongest possible terms that, in the light of the current situation in agriculture, the price increases by the Community must be realistic.

There are very definite advantages for the Community itself in maintaining a prosperous agricultural sector. That sector employs nearly 8,000,000 people. Surely it is important to protect that employment at a time when there are over 7,000,000 unemployed in the Community. The CAP guarantees the Community's food supply. It also creates stability in its balance of payments. A prosperous and progressive farm industry is a vital stabilising and constructive influence in European society. Therefore, we do not need to apologise in seeking a fair deal for farmers from the Community.

Apart from our determination to secure the best possible EEC prices package for 1981, we have been examining various other possibilities of securing further benefits for Irish farmers in an EEC context. In this respect, I have had Article 39 of the Rome Treaty very much in mind. That article declares that one of the basic objectives of the CAP shall be to ensure a fair standard of living for the agricultural community. This aim is certainly not being achieved in this country today. Neither is it being achieved in some of the other member states.

It was on that basis that I met with Commissioner Gundelach in Brussels last week, to put to him the serious difficulties facing Irish farmers at present. I explained fully to him the Government's deep concern about the decline in farm incomes here. I outlined to him our case for special assistance—particularly with due regard to Article 39 of the Treaty—and I discussed with him a range of possible options aimed at improving farm incomes here. I was delighted to find that the Commissioner was quite receptive and very sympathetic. He recognised that our agricultural industry here faces particular problems and he undertook to examine forthwith ways and means of relieving our situation. This is already being done and discussions at high official level are in progress.

I believe it is quite logical for us to look to the EEC for effective measures. Most of our trade in farm products is directly affected by the CAP. Let me emphasise that we do not want to change the basic principles of the CAP. We have always been staunch defenders of that policy and we must continue to defend it, especially now when it is coming under attack from various sources. Our aim is to get relief to the maximum extent possible from and within the existing mechanisms of the EEC.

Deputies opposite appear determined, both in this debate and earlier in their contributions on the Supplementary Estimate, to paint a picture of total gloom and depression in agriculture. As I have said, nobody is denying that farmers are going through a difficult time, but the preaching of despondency and depression is no help at all.

I have referred earlier to the very high level of investment that has taken place at all levels throughout the industry. This leaves the basic infrastructure of the industry in a healthy state and is a very positive factor for expansion in the future. I know that the high cost of investment is advanced as one of the reasons why some farmers—a relatively small proportion—are in serious difficulty. On this score, as the Minister for Finance has already told the House, the lending agencies, at the Government's instigation, have indicated their readiness to take a constructive and positive approach to restructuring loans in individual cases where the farmer is in serious difficulty.

This was one of the very important points in negotiations and consultations with the farming organisations. The farming organisations agreed with the banks to participate in special liaison committees between farmers' representatives and the banks on the one hand, and farmers' representatives and the ACC on the other hand. We asked for and got an assurance that those liaison committees will work effectively towards a resolution of these difficulties. I asked specifically for complaints if that mechanism is not working. To date I have not received any complaint.

Another area where we can look forward to positive results is the disease eradication programme. This programme has had the full backing of the farm organisations and the general body of farmers over the past few years. As a result, tremendous strides have been made in getting on with the eradication of brucellosis — so much so that I am quite confident this disease will be totally eradicated in the next five or six years. We are also making steady progress with getting the incidence of bovine TB reduced. The eradication of these two diseases over the coming years will remove one of the few remaining threats to the expansion of our export trade in cattle, beef and dairy products. The State's expenditure on disease eradication is substantial, and the amount contributed by farmers by way of disease levy must be seen as a worthwhile investment by farmers in the livestock industry. We all look forward to the day when these two diseases will have been eradicated and the high costs at present involved can be greatly reduced.

I am completely confident that Irish agriculture will overcome its present temporary difficulties. We have a considerable number of highly efficient farmers, as good as any farmers elsewhere. We have many others who have the capacity to be more productive and efficient. These now have a better range of back-up services to support them than ever before, not only in the various grant schemes but in the advisory and education facilities that are available. I am certain ACOT will recognise the challenge that the present farming situation poses for the new service and that it will rise to the challenge by providing a more cohesive advisory service to farmers. Even Deputy FitzGerald chose to ignore any positive elements on the agricultural scene. He dwelt at length, as other Deputies did, on the level of destocking this year. He and others could equally have adverted to the substantial increase of up to 22 per cent in the numbers of in-calf heifers as disclosed in recent surveys, but that would not suit their case at all.

There are, therefore, many positive factors which augur well for the expansion of agriculture in the longer term. Taking account of these and looking forward, after my recent approach, to constructive proposals from the EEC Commission, I can assure the House and farmers that the farming industry will be well looked after by the Government in its present difficulties.

I am satisfied that it does nothing for the industry to be expounding gloom and fear. Talk in general terms about farming going downhill at break-neck speed is unjustified. I am not saying that farmers have talked themselves into a decline — far from it — but figure-quoting has become something of a disease and there is also a place for positive thinking and we hear too little of that. It has been said that "There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". Certainly bad news seems to be always more welcome than good news. I was particularly pleased to note in fact that at least some people in leadership positions in the farming organisations have within the last week or so deplored any suggestion of cutting back on agricultural production because of the current difficulties. I believe there are enough responsible people around who will recognise that the first to be affected by cutting back will be farmers themselves. Such a negative approach could indeed be seriously detrimental also to the well-being of rural areas and to agriculture based industry. For my part, I have faith in the future of Irish agriculture and will be striving in the weeks and months ahead in the various EEC discussions and negotiations to see that future realised as quickly as possible. The farming industry is too important in this country's economy. We must have confidence in its future.

I agree with the last part of the Minister's speech, that we must have confidence. However as a person who is involved in this industry I do not see any reason for confidence at this time. Gloom is not coming from the Fine Gael benches; it is coming from the farming organisations. Those who were in Limerick last weekend saw and heard nothing but gloom. They are aware of the complete and utter lack of confidence in those responsible in the Government for this our major industry. It has been said by the Minister for Finance that Government action will not solve the problem, that it would also need reference to the CAP and the EEC. We know all that. In fairness, the Minister is probably fighting as hard as he can, but the outcome of that will also benefit the farmers of Europe.

It is as well to note that the farmers of Europe were satisfied last year with their deal and because of the difference in inflation between other European countries and ourselves those farmers are doing very well. Inflation is the root of the problem. We have a very high rate of inflation and, more than anything else, it is eroding farm incomes and profits. I agree with the Minister that we have the same level of investment, but for that level of investment farmers only get about half the value in buildings because of inflation. We must control inflation first because unless we do any measures will not solve our problem. We have been told about valuable consultations but we have yet to hear what they were about. What is so mysterious about them that we cannot be told what they were about? What practical results have the Government got from those valuable consultations? What measures will be proposed to get farmers out of the doldrums and off the streets? We are told that the Minister is continuing to explore but I should like to know where he intends exploring. Does he intend exploring at the North Pole? Such phrases will not get us anywhere.

I had hoped that instead of bringing in a woolly amendment the Government would have discussed the problem with us. I had hoped that we would get some measure of commitment from the Government on some of the measures necessary. At our last ACOT meeting in Cork there was unanimity between Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and others on the necessity for immediate relief with regard to interest rates and a resolution to that effect was submitted to the Minister. We were anxious that immediate help be given to those who had over-stretched themselves in their borrowings. I believe that Fianna Fáil members at that meeting proposed the restoration of transport subsidies on fertilisers and lime. We have been told that because of our membership of the EEC we cannot do that but we must be the only member state in the EEC concerned to stroke all our t's and dot all our i's.

We are suggesting a repeal of the bovine disease levy. Those involved in farming in recent years are aware of the amount of money that disease has cost them. With a levy we are really penalising somebody who is already hard pressed. Getting rid of disease is a costly business. Disease, apart from anything else, has put many a man to the wall. I will go further and say that the unpredictable nature of disease gives the farmer no chance at all, be he as careful as he likes. It can appear and has appeared out of the blue. Here is a case where we could apply for additional EEC aid and cut out that levy once and for all. We in these benches believe that as a gesture to restore confidence we should get rid of that levy now.

The second point I would take is the abolition of the resource tax. This imposition from the very beginning was totally unfair and our Labour colleagues have brought out that point. It has damaged our competitiveness in a serious way. It is not at all related to income. It is already added to your income tax bill and to your rates. I would compare it with a tax on a man's skill if it is to be related to PAYE. I would welcome its abolition now and, as a gesture of goodwill, a refund of what the Government have collected.

The Government have been particularly guilty in this field of taxation. They came along at election time and told the farmers "Get rid of these socialists, these red Richies and so on and put in a Government who will ease your tax burden." Very successfully they got 100 per cent of the farming vote in certain areas where taxation was a live issue. They have been very guilty. Last year they had a levy, once off they said, it would never happen again. This year we have a resource tax and we are going to run into a general election, so it has to be once off. But as soon as those bucks get back—if they get back—to power, what will it be? Twice or three times off?

The term "bucks" should not be used in connection with any Member of the House and should be withdrawn.

(Interruptions.)

It is acceptable in the context of our coming back.

It is an agricultural term relating to the male of a species.

The Chair is not ignorant of agricultural terms. Perhaps he knows a little more about them than Deputy Bruton does.

Tell them all about it, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, when you get a chance because they do not seem to know much about it. The point I was making is what is it going to be like when they get back, if they get back? If you fool people once, shame on you; if you fool them twice it is shame on the people who are fooled.

With regard to the abolition of rates, the Minister had quite a lot to say about rates and told us that we had no thought at all about rates. We were the first people who did something about household rates. I would like you to cast your minds back to that. Secondly, for those who had very substantial rates to pay we had a little thing called the primary grant, in case you did not hear about it, and it was not the Coalition who took them off. I have some figures here which I have not time to quote which will show you how rates have jumped since you people took over. You are the people who jacked up and made a very substantial bill out of rates for those people who had real rates to pay. If we are serious about the EEC and about being competitive we will have to look to our nearest competitor, that is the UK. If we are not line ball with these people in our costings, if we are not given a fair chance to compete with the British farmers, then you can forget about the British market. Fair enough, you took off the second moiety as a gesture of goodwill, again probably coming up to an election. It was a gesture of goodwill much appreciated even though you forgot about quite a lot of it over the £60 valuation and you also forgot about a very important sector under the £40 valuation.

Address the Chair, Deputy, please.

Unless we are allowed to compete on equal terms with a country that has no rates to pay you cannot expect an Irish farmer to have the wonderful confidence that you are talking about or to compete. Deputy Bruton, our front bench spokesman for agriculture, has put a lot of thought into this document. The proof is that it has been welcomed widely.

He did not tell us where he would find the money.

Before the last election where did the Deputy's party find it?

If the Deputy wants me to talk about finding money I will give him a lecture on it.

(Interruptions.)

Only one Deputy may speak.

I will talk about a manifesto that brought this economy down.

(Interruptions.)

Only one Deputy is in possession and he will talk about the motion before the House.

If you want me to answer you about money——

I would like the Deputy to answer.

If the people opposite will move out and let us in——

The Deputy on the motion before the House without interruption.

It is well-known that the capital allowance on breeding stocks is a very important factor for the dairyman and that is another item on our programme. It is known to dairy people that a cow depreciates from £600 or £700 to nil value over a number of years. Therefore, it is right and proper that we should be allowed to depreciate our dairy herd in this manner. It is well to stress the importance of dairy herds and cow numbers and the importance of the dairy herd in the context of other farmers such as people like myself who are tillage farmers. The dairy people really are the heart and soul of Irish farming. Because of the difficulties of their way of life they are the only people who really have to roll up their sleeves on a Sunday. They have a full seven-day working week. In order to instil confidence that they have not got at present we have moved and asked the Government to give them this very small concession.

The next point is income. The amount of money involved is not very significant but we know that it applies in the constituency of the Minister of State as well as in mine. The amount of land in the hands of elderly people is quite substantial and this is due in great measure to the extraordinary legal-tangled difficulty and the high cost of transfer, stamp duty and so on. This is a gesture towards relieving that situation. The Minister should go the whole hog and get rid of stamp duty as they have done in the United States where transfers can be easily and readily made. One would avoid the situation of companies and corporations forming where land would be held and never transferred.

The interest subsidy which we propose is probably the most important item in the immediate future. There is widespread agreement on the necessity for it. The Minister for Finance rightly said he had done a lot and I give him credit for what has been done with regard to low interest loans and a moratorium for people with high borrowing. However, this is not enough. Interest at present due to the recession is too high for many people.

We were told to concentrate on the middle band of farmers and I take ACOT to task for this. There is no fear for that band of farmers. They are insulated against all weather conditions at present. It is the front runners who are in trouble now, those who took the advice of agricultural advisers and developed their farms. The number of people who bought land dearly is minimal. The vast majority are those who spent money on their existing holdings and bought good, expensive stock. They are in trouble now. If the Minister even at this late stage gave us a commitment on this we would have achieved a lot. The councillors we meet in ACOT from the opposite benches are getting the same message that we are and it is that young farmers are in real trouble because of heavy borrowing. We should subsidise the interest until such time as they are out of their difficulties and inflation is brought under control.

In identifying those areas ACOT and agricultural advisers have a big role to play. Any aid that is given should be paid directly to farmers on the advice of agricultural advisers. At a recent ACOT meeting all parties were told that we had to do something immediately about the people in financial difficulty. The advisers know who they are, as they confide in them. The advisers should be sent out to them, the size of the problem should be measured and the remedy applied.

The farmers are not cutting back for the sake of being contrary. Fertilisers are stacked up in co-operative societies and railway stations. Farm machinery businesses are closing down. Only last night I met a man who won a prize last year for best salesman and he is being made redundant at the weekend. Farmers have lost confidence and the Government have a responsibility to restore it. Nobody asked any questions when nurses and other groups got their few shillings. This is a primary industry and God knows the Government found money for more foolish things like getting themselves into power and running down the economy. This is like planting seed potatoes. Investment in agriculture is necessary. In case anyone gets the idea that farm incomes in boom times were high a recent survey has shown that even at the best of times they were not.

Another point which has come to light is that farmers are at present selling stock on the pretence of disease. We are not hearing the full story because farmers are a proud race and are ashamed to admit that things are so bad. I know of a case where a healthy heard of cows were sold. The effects of the slump in agriculture does not confine itself to the farm gate. The Minister mentioned the processing industry. I am as conversant as anyone in the House with the processing of food and dairy produce but one thing is certain; if the Minister does not wake up and do something about the horticultural processing industry, in other words Erin Foods, he will have another problem on his hands. Fastnet and Carlow are in trouble already. Where will the next one be? This is an industry that has survived many a battle and it is only now we are talking of closing it down. We can say we will put in an alternative industry and that is grand. I praised a Minister in the House yesterday for doing something about another industry and I will praise this Minister if he does something about Erin Foods. I appeal to him to save the valuable horticultural processing skills that we have. It is important to remember that the disaster on Irish farms will spread into every town and city.

I already mentioned the farm machinery business — it has gone. Also affected are the fertiliser business and jobs in the processing factories, jobs in the transport industry, even in land reclamation. Never before did I see so many machines idle. Jobs in our marts and meat processing factories are affected. Townspeople will tell you that they are seriously concerned about their farm friends, their customers, and that if something is not done quickly, tomorrow will be too late. Let the Government not come in with an amendment that talks about exploring, about discussions and discourses. We want to hear at least one concrete suggestion that will restore farm confidence. Do not tell us you have succeeded in what has been done because if you had there would not have been 60,000 people out on the streets last Saturday with promises of more to come. Nobody on any side of the House wants that. What we want and I hope will all try to achieve is that the farm industry will be put back on its feet without further delay. Do not blame the EEC. I am in the Council of Europe and I know what is happening — European farmers are doing quite well. This is a national problem, a problem of controlling inflation and of getting the whole economy under control, and, having done that, implementing the steps we suggested.

I appeal to the Minister to do all he can in Brussels. I am sure he will but the proper nuts to crack are those in his own Cabinet. They are the people he must convince that money must be found now. Nobody will begrudge that money. It is not, as it were, giving fish to the farmers but giving them the means to do their own fishing. We do not seek handouts for them but an opportunity to recover. It is important still — and it cannot be bought with money — to restore their confidence. Let the Government make out a five-year plan in regard to taxation — income tax on accounts with full allowances, set out exactly what they intend to do over a period and get off the farmers' backs. Do not come along year in year out with new taxes, once-off measures; we are sick of them. Do what is right by them. Treat them in the same way as their UK counterparts are treated and give them an opportunity to compete in the market place.

Having listened to the previous speaker I have grave doubts about the sincerity of this motion. I think it is another gimmick, a stunt, a timewasting exercise by Fine Gael. Do we not all know that Fine Gael can make no move if ever they get back to Government without the Labour tail wagging the Fine Gael dog from head to toe? Let there be no doubt but that the wealth tax will be brought back as it was introduced in the past by the men with superior intelligence who claim to have all the answers to all the problems of agriculture. Those opposite were the people who said that. Deputy Hegarty said that there was nobody on this side of the House competent to deal with the problems of agriculture. We are all in the business and know it inside out.

Do something about it.

We know the problems of that great industry and no amount of talk in this House will solve them. Action and co-operation are needed. I was heartened by the speech of the Minister for Agriculture. I think Fine Gael speakers will agree that he is in tune with the enormous problems of the industry and if anything can be done to improve farm incomes we must take the Minister's line. Shouting, bawling and belly-aching will solve nothing. Great talkers are never great doers. If talk solved problems Fine Gael would have solved them years ago.

It is time for serious thought and action. I believe action will come through a Fianna Fáil Government and Minister for Agriculture. We concede that there is a recession in agriculture; we would be stupid not to: the Minister said it a few minutes ago because he realises the difficulties. He has told us he is going back to Brussels to try to ensure that the case for the Irish farmer is properly put and understood. I do not doubt that he will come back with the best possible deal for our farmers because we all realise the importance of this industry to our economy.

There is no point in talking of British agriculture. You cannot compare it with Irish Agriculture. There is no point in making a comparison when you have 5 per cent of the British population engaged in agriculture while 28 per cent of our population are in agriculture. We want to see that industry thrive because we are concerned about the future of the industry. It is not the first time that farmers have faced economic recession. They went through recession from 1974 to 1977, despite the fact that the then Minister for Agriculture was pushing an open door in Brussels all the time. Prices were on the increase all the time while we were approaching par with European prices. In 1974 we had the fodder crisis when thousands of our breeding stock were slaughtered because farmers did not have fodder. That could not happen in 1980 because the present Minister for Agriculture had the courage and foresight to anticipate such a situation. I was glad this week to meet farmers who said: "We got our grants this morning for the silage subsidy and they were very welcome. Thanks to MacSharry and Company; they are doing a good job".

That will solve everything.

I note that Fine Gael speakers were rather reluctant to talk about cattle prices. It has been proved beyond doubt that some thrifty farmers have made £200 per head on beef production this year; that cannot be contradicted. There is a man in this building at present who sold cattle last week to a factory. He bought them last March and they yielded a profit of £200 per head. Is that not something that is being ignored by those who talk about the prices in agriculture? That is the type of farm community we want, with farmers getting proper advice on the handling and breeding of livestock so as to ensure they will have stocks on their land that will produce the maximum weight gains which will give maximum profit. This is something the people opposite have conveniently forgotten. It would not do to mention something like that.

The present year was a good year for grass production, one of the best for a long time. That has contributed to the extraordinary weight gains that have occurred in livestock throughout the country this year. At the same time, farm costs have increased — we would be foolish to ignore that — but in the period 1974 to 1976 the increase was 55 per cent and from 1977 to date the increase has been roughly 40 per cent. That contradicts the claim made by Deputy Bermingham — he may be an expert on agriculture and I do not know the extent of his agricultural expertise — that this Government had failed to control inflation. The figures bear out the fact that the Government have taken positive steps to control inflation.

Deputy Hegarty spoke about the slump in the sales of farm machinery. Surely that had to come sometime. Millions of pounds have left the country to pay for imports of modern farm machinery. The Deputy should bear in mind that a farmer does not use a tractor every day of the year. Farmers are well mechanised and, as I said during the budget debate this year, we need more co-operation in the use of farm machinery because of the amount of capital tied up in it. Take a forage harvester, for instance. It is used for five weeks each year at the most and it is lying idle for the remainder of the year, depreciating in value all the time. The same goes for every other item of farm machinery.

Therefore, we need to advise our farmers to ensure that they invest their money wisely. Most farm machinery is purchased on loan from the ACC or the banks. Farmers would be advised therefore to do costings in regard to the pooling of farm machinery before they go out and put a millstone round their necks by purchasing expensive farm machinery. That is one of the reasons for farmers indebtedness which is causing such a problem. Some farmers borrowed heavily and they are now in financial difficulty because of their heavy commitments during the years as a result of not doing their homework properly before investing individually in expensive machinery with a very high depreciation element.

We cannot ignore these facts, no matter how people try to manipulate figures to suit a political situation. The farming community are determined to play their role in society, to produce adequately in order to earn the maximum for the national economy. They must be encouraged and that can be best be done by ensuring that markets are organised and guaranteed. We did not have such organised marketing when we depended on Britain to buy our produce. Britain bought when it suited her, the result being that farmers experienced periods of slumps and great demand.

Today farmers have a market for their produce. It can be argued that at the moment prices are not adequate to keep pace with inflation. Farm credit needs to be watched carefully because it will be an important factor in farming activity throughout the years. Therefore we must ensure it will be made available, and this is the only area in which Deputy Hegarty and I might agree. The Minister, too, agrees and he is anxious to ensure that farmers get credit at the lowest possible rates.

The Government cannot blame the current agricultural problems here on someone else. They cannot blame it on Europe, or on the oil sheiks. The position of Irish agriculture at the moment is almost unique in Europe. Let us take one example. As a united country last year we fought against the super levy on milk because we wanted room for Irish milk production to expand. We succeeded in that fight. What has happened since? In seven countries of the EEC milk production has expanded, but in Ireland, in company with one other country in Europe, milk production has fallen. Therefore, the arguments we all made as a united people against the super levy has been invalidated by our own miserable agricultural performance in the last year.

The bland and complacent Government contribution to this debate indicates that they do not understand the seriousness of the situation for jobs, for the maintenance of rural Ireland and for our balance of payments. At the end of this debate Members have a choice, to vote for the six constructive proposals for Irish agriculture being put forward by this party or for a Fianna Fáil amendment which would delete from the records of this House those six proposals without putting anything in their place. The Fine Gael motion calls for:

(1) the abolition and refund of the Resource Tax,

(2) the repeal of the Bovine Disease Levy,

(3) the abolition of rates on agricultural land,

(4) the introduction of a capital allowance against income tax for breeding stock,

(5) an interest subsidy for certain farmers and

(6) the reduction of stamp duty on transfer of agricultural property to young farmers.

The Fianna Fáil amendment proposes to delete all of these proposals from the resolution finally to be adopted by this House and substitutes only meaningless platitudes. Those who vote for the amendment will be voting against the abolition of agricultural rates, against the abolition of disease levy, against the interest subsidies for farmers, against the refund of the resource tax and against a tax allowance for breeding stock and reduced stamp duty on land transfers to young farmers. That is the way Deputies will be voting here tonight, the week before they return to their constituencies for Christmas, if they vote in favour of the amendment.

Why do the Government want to delete all reference to these proposals? Why does their amendment not even give an undertaking, which would not have cost anything, to consider the proposals? The answer is to be found in the air of bland unreality that pervaded the speech of the Minister of Finance yesterday, who spoke as someone concerned not with the future of Irish agriculture but with justifying his own past record. The same can be said for the contribution of the Minister for Agriculture. He was looking back all the time, congratulating himself, patting himself on the back for the efforts he had made, as if he felt rather lonely because no one else was consoling him about how good he had been and he had to do it himself. In none of the contributions on the Government side was there even a glimmer of a plan for the future of agriculture. Was there any idea of where agriculture will go in the next five years? There was not anything but tired self-justification. Problems of Irish agriculture are serious enough to deserve something better in a debate such as this.

I will turn to what we on this side propose. The most important proposal is that for an interest subsidy. An important minority of farmers are in dire trouble with their banks. They are among our best farmers, who had forged ahead of their neighbours by increasing their herds, their equipment and their overall efficiency. They did so on money borrowed at the relatively low interest rates obtaining at that time. Since then interest rates have gone up, prices have remained static instead of rising, as was generally predicted at the time, and costs have risen.

The progressive farmer is caught in a three-corner vice of high costs, low prices and increased interest charges. This progressive farmer set the example for others by expanding his herd and his enterprise. If the Government, by failing to introduce an interest subsidy, allow him to go under they will devalue all the work of the agricultural advisers, the training courses and all the research of the last ten years. The Government will show by their failure to come to the rescue of farmers who have done all the things they were advised to do on borrowed money that expansion does not pay. They will again be recreating the conditions in which Irish farming could easily lapse back into the cautious low input, low output rut in which it travelled from the famine until the late sixties.

It is to prevent this happening that we call for an immediate interest subsidy for farmers so that those who have been giving an example to others, who have been taking risks, will be seen to be justified and will be seen to have the confidence of the Government behind them. Without that interest subsidy one cannot say that such farmers will have confidence in the Government.

Another measure to which I attach special importance is the elimination of stamp duty on lands transfered to young farmers. We propose for a two year period that no stamp duty will be levied on such transfers. This would provide an immediate incentive to transfer lands to young farmers in the next two years. Tens of thousands of acres of land in the country are underutilised because this land is in the hands of elderly farmers who are unable to work the land properly and many of them have no identifiable successor taking an interest in their holdings. Our proposal on stamp duty, its abolition on transfers to young farmers for two years, combined with a proper farm pension scheme, which we do not have at the moment, could effect a massive transfer of land in a short time to hundreds of young trained farmers all over the country. It is only by harnessing the energies and talents of young people that Irish agriculture will prosper. Our proposal is a positive step in that direction. In this amendment the Government propose to delete our proposal.

Our cattle breeding herd is now at a critically low level. There were 70,000 more cows slaughtered this year than would have happened in a normal year. This is very damaging to our future ability to produce milk and beef, the staple products of our agricultural industry. Fine Gael propose to introduce a breeding stock allowance in the income tax code to give farmers a strong financial incentive to build up their herds again. In this amendment the Government propose to delete this measure. They are against that also.

We propose to abolish agricultural rates. This tax is based on our archaic land values. It takes no account of family circumstances. A man with ten children pays as much rates as a man with none. It is highly regressive, being paid in full in a bad year by a farmer when he has not got an income but being accepted as an income tax payment in a good year by a farmer when he has an income on which he is paying tax. Rates cost him hardly anything in a good year and he has to pay the full amount of rates in a bad year when he has not got an income. We propose to do away with the bovine disease levy and the resource tax, neither of which should ever have been introduced.

What did the Deputy say to the farmers in Donegal?

No interruptions please.

(Interruptions.)

Will the two Wexford Deputies please conduct themselves? We do not want any more from them. Deputy Bruton without interruptions.

Will Deputy Bruton tell us what happened in Donegal?

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Bruton without interruptions.

I am sorry that Deputy D'Arcy's activities in Wexford are getting so much under the skin of the Minister of State. Fine Gael are putting forward in this debate positive proposals. The Government have not put forward any proposals in this debate. The six measures we are putting forward are the committed policy upon which we will act in Government. They were discussed and agreed upon at a two day meeting of our parliamentary party. They reflect discussions we have been having in the special agricultural groups we have established in each constituency. They reflect a response to a detailed discussion paper published by this party in September and circulated to every branch of the IFA, Macra na Feirme and the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers. The proposals we put forward here tonight are consistent with our vigorous parliamentary opposition to the evils we now seek to correct. They are consistent with our strenuous opposition to the bovine disease levy in 1979 and with our opposition in this House to the various agricultural rates Bills which deprive the smaller farmers of rates relief and with the amendments to the Finance Bill to eliminate resource tax and grant capital allowances for breeding stock.

On a point of order—

There is no point of order at this stage.

On a point of information, will Deputy Bruton tell the House what he told the farmers in Donegal about rates?

This motion is a culmination of months of work. Therefore, we will not accept its defeat by the whipped Fianna Fáil majority here tonight. We will fight by every means in our power between now and the next general election for the six proposals we are putting forward here tonight. We will seek the support of the farming organisations. We have already had a meeting with one of the most important farming organisations, Macra na Feirme, in this House this evening to discuss those proposals and we will be discussing the six proposals we have put forward with all the other farming organisations in the next ten days.

The Government may think that, by their reluctant, heavy-hearted majority of Deputies coming in here to vote against their conscience in voting against these measures, that they will kill these measures. They may hope that as a result of the division here tonight they will have heard the end to what we are proposing. I assure them that they will continue to hear about the six proposals we are putting forward for agriculture every day of the week from now until the general election. I assure the Deputies on the far side that their action in voting against those six proposals in the interest of the Irish farmers will be a large nail in the coffin of their Government's loss of their seats in the forthcoming general election. We have something which we can justly fight for. We have a policy for agriculture. The Government have not a policy. They have nothing to offer. I am confident that when the election comes and when the people judge the attitude of the two parties and the way they voted on this motion, their verdict will be in favour of us on this side of the House.

(Interruptions.)

Will Deputies allow the Chair to put the amendment, please?

(Interruptions.)
Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 44.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Kit.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Cogan, Barry.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Coughlan, Clement.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joe.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Nolan, Tom.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy C.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Filgate, Eddie.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzsimons, James N.
  • Fox, Christopher J.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Dennis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Killeen, Tim.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leydon, Terry.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael J.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Cosgrave, Michael J.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • D'Arcy, Michael J.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Donnellan, John F.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom
  • (Cavan-Monaghan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Moore and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies L'Estrange and W. O'Brien.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.

Sixty-six votes against the farmers.

Forty-four on the other side is a poor show.

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