Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Dec 1980

Vol. 325 No. 8

Supplementary Estimates, 1980. - Vote 29: Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £5,080,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1980, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education (including Institutions of Science and Art), for certain miscellaneous educational and cultural services and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.

—(Minister for Education.)

Mr. Horgan

I was referring to the Supplementary Estimate for higher education and to the fact that this is the third Supplementary Estimate in relation to some of the institutions of higher education that has come before us this year. I should like the Minister to explain whether it is the accounting of the Higher Education Authority or of the institutions themselves that is at fault to the extent that it is necessary for him to come back twice or three times to the House for sums of money to enable the third-level institutions to complete the year's work. I also note that there is no provision in the Supplementary Estimate for any increase in higher education grants for this or any year and I would remind the House that there is an obvious connection between this fact and the fact that the proportion of third-level students who are grant holders seems to be sadly going down. At the beginning of my speech I said that the Minister's Santa Claus image would fool nobody. It is more of an Alice in Wonderland exercise and I believe that time and the complaints of the people who are trying to operate our educational system will bear me out.

I should like to give the remainder of my time, by prior agreement with the Ceann Comhairle, to Deputy John Ryan.

Mr. J. Ryan

I thank Deputy Horgan and the Chair for their co-operation in this matter. I am concerned about the development of regional colleges and the impact on the future needs of our youth. In recent times we have heard and read of professors and people of knowledge indicating, due to the arrival of the microchip, the need to prepare our youth for this tremendous challenge in the next 20 years. Because of this call for more technocrats and the need for further development in this region I am very concerned as a member of a vocational education committee that the position regarding regional colleges and their needs and finances be assessed as a matter of urgency by the Minister. For that reason alone I intervene in this debate.

There is great and urgent need for an increase in the number of scholarships to regional colleges if we are to meet the challenge of the microchip and prepare our young people for it. In the future more boys and girls will need assistance from the Department in preparation for this challenge through regional college education. For that reason I strongly recommend to the Minister an in-depth study and urgent review of the situation and a substantial increase in the number of scholarships to regional colleges. I should also like to emphasise the need for a review of the means test in regard to these scholarships. We need many thousands of boys and girls if we are to withstand this challenge in the future and a review of the means test is vitally necessary in the case of thousands of parents whose sons and daughters are anxious to learn the new technology for employment in industry.

I should like the Minister to look into another matter. There seems to be confusion and overlapping in the allocation and preparation of schemes by county councils and vocational education committees. If there was co-ordination through the Minister's Department and more relevant arrangements between the county councils and the VECs in regard to the grants scheme it might avoid some confusion among pupils seeking scholarships.

As we may be approaching the possibility of another package I should like to direct the Minister's attention to the very strong case submitted to the Higher Education Authority for the Minister's final sanction on the question of the recognition of the new vocational school in Thurles as a regional college in County Tipperary. The need is there and the case has been constructively put forward and I ask the Minister to give the matter urgent consideration. County Tipperary as a unit is entitled to a regional college. The White Paper submitted to the HEA will bear me out. I appreciate that the HEA have a big say in the matter but the ultimate decision I believe will rest with the Minister. We in Tipperary look forward to the new school in Thurles which will be completed for the school year commencing in September 1981 and I hope that by that time the Minister will have accepted that the school should be a regional technical college. In that way he will be doing great service to County Tipperary.

As a layman I want to say that what is now offered is a travesty of free education. Gone are the days when we heard the late Deputy Donagh O'Malley introduce free education. The position has changed today. I have had numerous requests from primary schools — the Minister I know has also had them — indicating a crisis in primary education because of shortage of money. The shortage has now gone to the secondary sector. A school in Thurles that I know found it necessary to write to the Minister personally on 1 December indicating a crisis in that school. That indicates a national crisis both in primary and secondary education. I should like the Minister to bear in mind the points I have mentioned and I hope that what I said in regard to Thurles and the package for north Tipperary will be remembered in the impending by-election.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has about 13 minutes.

Mr. Harte

The Minister is being called at this point?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Yes, to conclude. That is the arrangement with the Whips. Actually the Minister is seven minutes late in being called.

Minister for Education (Mr. Wilson)

I thank the Deputies who contributed to the debate. I shall have to skip fairly quickly through various points I wanted to make in reply, ach is mian liom ar dtús mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leo mar gur thóg siad páirt san díospóireacht agus gur léirigh siad a dtuairimí dom.

I was a bit flattered at being compared with Saint Nicholas of Myra by Deputy Horgan.

Mr. Harte

Not favourably.

Mr. Wilson

I regret that I did not measure up to the image with my red cloak and white trimmings. I envisaged Deputy Collins as Don Quixote de la Mancha when he was on his mission tilting at windmills because he came out fighting about the school transport service and began attacking something that unlike in Don Quixote's case was not there, some problem regarding school transport. At least Don Quixote had the windmill to remind him of the realities of life and one of its vanes struck him. I want to tell Deputy Collins that I found it very difficult to refrain from laughing when he expressed his great concern about our school transport system.

As he admitted himself, a Minister from his own party set up a special committee to find out how the transport service should be organised and to suggest a scale of charges, which is precisely what happened. When Deputy Ryan was Minister for Finance he flew a kite — in fact, he was an expert kite flyer — about the transport system but he was made aware in no uncertain fashion that he would not be allowed to interfere with it. I want to direct the attention of the Deputy and the House to the fact that more than £20 million was provided this year for the school transport system. I should not like any worry about it to come between Deputy Collins and his night's sleep during the next few weeks.

The Government are committed to education to the extent that they have allocated £536,318,000 for this purpose. That is £100 million more than was provided in the 1979 budget. If I include the non-voted money the sum is £545,397,000 which is a considerable sum to provide for educational services. Recently all Deputies received a memo regarding the census. I ask them to look at some of the statistics in that memo and in the census report. Speaking in general terms there are about 1,029,000 children in the category 0-14 years and more than 800,000 in the 14-29 category. The latter figure is not very helpful: it would be much better if we had a 14-22 grouping. On the continent the 14-29 grouping is much more significant because students there continue for a longer period in third-level education. The young people are the concern of the Government and it is for them the moneys I have mentioned have been allocated by the Government and have been voted by the House.

Deputy Horgan said there was a reduction in capital expenditure. However, if he examines the figures he will see that total expenditure on capital works this year was £59,500,000 which is £9.3 million more than the out-turn for last year.

Mr. J. Ryan

A 10 per cent increase.

Mr. Wilson

It is £9.3 million on £48 million. The increase is substantial. It is £31,857,000 greater than the 1976 figure, the last full year of the National Coalition.

Mr. E. Collins

We have had no inflation of course.

Mr. Wilson

There has been inflation. In 1980 some 121 new primary schools or major extensions were sanctioned and 55 building projects at post-primary level have been approved for contract or tenders have been invited. Despite the impassioned plea of Deputy Collins about Wood Quay — a late-founded enthusiasm I might remark——

Mr. E. Collins

That is not true.

Mr. Wilson

——a sum of £283,000 was provided.

Mr. E. Collins

The Minister should know that I raised the matter two years ago in the Council of Europe.

Mr. Wilson

Deputy Horgan reluctantly mentioned that we had some success with regard to teachers's pay but then he proceeded to do some nit-picking with regard to expenditure under the various subheads. The Deputy mentioned the £100,000 being made available under subhead G.3 for the purchase of hurleys for young people. The original Estimate, according to Deputy Horgan, was £12,000 less than was provided in 1979. The Deputy should study the Estimate more closely because he overlooked the fact that the 1979 Estimate provided £300,000 for capital. In 1980 capital is being provided from the tripartite fund. In fact, under subhead G.3 the Estimate for current expenditure is £300,000 more than was provided in 1979. He mentioned something about NESC and I said I would refer to it in my reply. The reason I said they were unscientific was that they were comparing 1979 with 1980 but they were comparing the out-turn in 1979 with Estimates in 1980. That is unpardonable. The exercise we are going through here at the moment indicates how unscientific that procedure was because the moneys being voted now as a result of the Supplementary Estmates and the moneys voted during the year must be added to the amount in the Book of Estimates to get a fair basis for comparison. This should have been done.

Reference is made to the review body on teachers' pay. The Supplementary Estimates make provision for payment in respect of an increase in salaries as from 1 September 1980 following agreement at the teachers' conciliation council who processed it on proposals deriving from the review body. I am very glad to have this opportunity of expressing my thanks to members of that review body for their sterling work——

Mr. E. Collins

They nearly resigned.

Mr. Wilson

——in connection with the assignment given to them within their terms of reference. That was to examine and report on the levels of salary and allowances for teachers and the common basic scale, taking cognisance of the circumstances of other groups with comparable professional qualifications and responsibilities. Their approach to the task was thorough and expeditious——

Mr. E. Collins

Unlike the Minister's attitude to their report.

Mr. Wilson

I did not interrupt the Deputy. What I am saying seems to rile him for some reason.

Mr. E. Collins

They nearly resigned.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Mr. Wilson

The people who criticised them have put at risk the voluntary service of very able public servants. I want to condemn with all possible vehemence the cheap attacks made by some people on the review body. One member told me he was accused of making money as a result of acting on the review body. I want to stress they were a totally voluntary body and the members gave of their services to the community. They issued a fine report.

Mr. E. Collins

Hear, hear.

Mr. Wilson

The structures of that report were incorporated in the final agreement with the teachers. I must dispel any impression that the proposals that eventually were put before the conciliation council for the purpose of an agreed recommendation departed fundamentally from the proposals of the review body. Perhaps it was inevitable that proposals so revolutionary, in particular in relation to the introduction of long-phased increments, should have needed to be negotiated before being accepted by the teachers. It was agreed, by way of negotiation, that the span of the long phased increments should be reduced from 23 to 11 years, but the length of the normal scale, on the other hand, should remain at 15 points instead of 13 as recommended in the report of the review body. The minimum of the new scale was fixed at £5,300 instead of the recommended £5,050, but the amounts of the increment over most of the scale were precisely as recommended in the report, and the maximum to be attained by the long phased increments was fixed at the level of £10,200 recommended by the review body. I am saying this in order to indicate to the House how the structures were worked out by the review body and adhered to and that what he did after that was build on the work of the review body.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister will have to conclude now.

Mr. Wilson

How much time have I left?

Mr. O'Toole

Injury time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

By agreement with the Minister, as a result of a late question or whatever one would like to call it, and an announcement by the Chair, he was denied seven minutes to which he was entitled. If the people for the next session wish, we can go to five minutes past four. It depends on them.

Mr. O'Malley

It would not be fair to deprive the House of the Minister's eloquence.

Mr. Wilson

I am indebted to the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Tourism for these remarks.

Mr. O'Malley

This is a much more ethereal Department than mine.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

He is wasting his time now.

Mr. O'Malley

My Department is all about nuts and bolts. These are fine soul ideas.

Mr. E. Collins

Tilting at windmills.

Mr. Wilson

I want to refer to Deputy Horgan's reference in relation to the lack of specialist teachers. I am on record, in this House and elsewhere, as stating that my ambition is that any post-primary school which needs a teacher of engineering workshop theory and practice or building construction should have that teacher available. The House must know that this is the first year that Thomond College was brought into this teacher-training area. It had already been in existence as a physical education training college for teachers. This year, we have started off with a new crop of rural science, engineering workshop theory and practice and building construction students. There is a great future for Thomond College and we hope that that college will provide enough teachers to leave enough available for each post-primary school in the country.

The problems which will arise in the year, when the new long course is getting under way, is a serious one but one which we hope to be able to deal with. With reference to the number of grants going down, I want to say that the number of scholarships from vocational education committees has rocketed in comparison and that the number of ESF grants available for regional technical colleges has also increased and is well up over 11,000 altogether.

I take the point that Deputy Ryan made about the regional colleges. Of course, he had to put in his plug for his own constituency and nobody blames him for that. Let him not forget, however, that Bray, Dún Laoghaire, Tallaght, Blanchardstown, Cavan and Mayo are also plugging for new regional technical colleges and I must keep all their claims in mind.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister must finish now.

Mr. Wilson

I recommend to the House that they welcome with open arms this huge increase in educational spending which is an indication of the Government's confidence in the youth of the country. We will need, and the Minister who is succeeding me particularly will need people with the training, expertise and sophistication which will become increasingly necessary in the years ahead. We intend not to let the country down as far as this is concerned. I know that our young people — and I gave the statistics to the House, well over one million in the 0 to 14 year group — will answer the challenge adequately, as the Government are doing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A brief question from Deputy Collins.

Mr. E. Collins

When will the White Paper be published? This is somewhat overdue. Secondly, will the excess capital moneys voted here today, have been spent by the end of this calendar year, or will there be a carry-over into the next year?

Mr. Wilson

In answer to the second question, there is always a roll-over as far as building is concerned, but the money voted is for the year 1980.

Mr. E. Collins

Will there be much of it going on to 1981?

Mr. Wilson

Commitments will be going into 1981 but the money voted here will be paid out in 1980.

Mr. E. Collins

And the answer to the first question?

Mr. Wilson

Very shortly. I will be in touch with the Deputy.

Mr. E. Collins

Oh, Minister.

Vote put and agreed to.