It is proposed to take Item No. 6 (Resumed).
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, could I ask the Taoiseach, in view of the disclosure yesterday by the Northern Ireland Secretary, Mr. Atkins, that a common defence pact would be a subject matter for discussion by the joint study group, if he would make a statement to the House today?
I am sorry, Deputy, that is not in order on the Order of Business.
I am asking the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on a matter of national importance.
I am sorry, Deputy. It is out of order.
It has never been disallowed before.
It has been disallowed. I disallowed it on a previous occasion. It is not in order on the Order of Business.
If you have been wrong in the past that does not justify you in being wrong at present.
I am sorry, Deputy. It is not in order on the Order of Business.
It has always been in order to ask the Taoiseach or any member of the Government if he would make a statement on a matter of extreme national importance.
I have already explained to the Deputy that it is not in order.
I want to put it on the record of the House that I dissent from your ruling, which is contrary to precedent.
We must face up to this issue.
I cannot allow a discussion on it.
You cannot deny me my right.
I am not denying the Deputy his right. I am following the usual procedures of the House.
I will not be side-tracked on this major issue into a confrontation with you which is what the Government wish, and you know they wish that. I want to know will the Taoiseach make a statement in this House about the disclosure yesterday by the Northern Ireland Secretary that Irish neutrality is to be bargained away.
I am not allowing that on the Order of Business.
On a point of order, will you allow a Private Notice Question on this issue today?
I will not make a decision at this point. I will examine any question that is put down.
I will put one down.
What is the precedent for disallowing a request ——
I will not allow my ruling to be debated.
Clearly your ruling is wrong.
I have already explained the position with regard to what is in order on the Order of Business.
As a matter of guidance, could I ask you this question? Two weeks ago in this House I raised the issue of Irish neutrality with the Taoiseach and he accused me of making statements which were absolutely without foundation. If the Taoiseach's statement was true on that occasion Mr. Atkins is telling lies, and if he is not telling lies the Taoiseach is telling lies.
This is becoming a debate and I am not allowing it.
Could I ask for your guidance? Have you no responsibility if it appears that the Taoiseach has misled the House and the people?
The Deputy should not say anybody misled the House. I am not allowing a discussion on this matter.
Are you seriously telling us we cannot raise in this House the matter of Irish neutrality?
The Deputy can raise that matter at the appropriate time and he is aware of that.
I am entitled to ask the Taoiseach to make a statement.
The Deputy is not entitled to continue——
It is not your function to get between the Taoiseach and the Opposition. That seems to be your function.
I am sorry that the Deputy should make that remark.
I am sorry I find it necessary to make that remark.
I want to raise a matter bearing on the Business of the House. I have here a GIS handout showing that early yesterday afternoon the Minister for Finance was delivering a script at a lunch in Jury's Hotel while questions to his Department were being answered——
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
I want to know whether the Minister——
The Deputy is very well aware that that has nothing to do with the Order of Business.
In what context is it then to be raised? How can the Minister for Finance allow two days' financial questions to go by and leave them to a pair of wretched apprentices who made a lamentable job of them? People in the Gallery were laughing at them.
The Deputy is aware this is not the time to raise that matter.
If the Minister had been here they would probably have laughed at him too. Let it not be said that it had anything to do with the petrol strike. That has to do with his colleague, the Minister for Labour, who is as incompetent as his predecessor.
Would the Deputy please resume his seat?
Could I ask the Taoiseach two questions? Does the Taoiseach intend to introduce a Supplementary Estimate in order to provide some immediate financial help for the victims of the Stardust tragedy?
That is not in order either.
If it is necessary.
I am sorry.
I could defuse a lot of this.
I have to follow the procedures of the House and I cannot allow a discussion on these matters.
May I suggest that the Whips could talk about it?
Very well. If the Whips wish to talk about this matter ——
I want to know what you are doing now. You refused me the right to ask the Taoiseach to make a statement. You are supposed to be impartial.
This is a scandal.
It is your duty to treat every Deputy with total impartiality.
That is correct.
You refused me the right to request the Taoiseach to make a statement on Irish neutrality——
This is most unreasonable.
——which is being bargained away at this moment. I am entitled to pose a question. After a few utterances by the Taoiseach you are prepared to reverse your ruling.
One moment, please. I have followed my ruling through. It is exactly the opposite to what the Deputy has said. I refused to allow the Taoiseach to intervene.
No, you did not. You said "with the agreement of the Whips".
Please look at the record. Deputy Browne.
Apropos a parliamentary question. I want to ask for a direction. A number of matters of procedure have arisen out of the disaster, which are urgent, and I was wondering if the Taoiseach could appoint one of his colleagues——
I am sorry, this is not a matter for the Order of Business.
It is a matter of extreme urgency.
I am sorry, it is not a matter for the Order of Business. Item No. 6.
In order to co-ordinate the activities ——
Deputy Cluskey.
On a point of order, you indicated that you were prepared to let the Taoiseach reply "with the agreement of the Whips".
This party are prepared to agree. Are Fine Gael prepared to agree?
Yes. The House is in agreement.
Let the Taoiseach speak, then.
What I said is that if the House agreed, the matter could be discussed with the Whips. It is a matter for the Whips.
On a point of order, it has been a precedent in the House that the House can arrange its own business and, by agreement, orders can be varied. There is agreement between all parties that the Taoiseach should be allowed to reply, as he is clearly anxious to do. I suggest we proceed accordingly.
Item No. 6.
I am making a proposal. I pointed out that it is a tradition that when all parties are agreed an order can be varied. There is agreement among all parties that the Taoiseach make a statement on this subject. I propose, therefore, that the Taoiseach be allowed to make a statement. Would you so rule?
As I said earlier, if the Whips want to come together, to come to an agreement, or something, that is another matter.
This is a matter for the House, and the House has reached agreement on the issue.
I overheard the Taoiseach to say "I can defuse this whole matter". We now offer him the opportunity.
Would the Deputy tell his leader to behave himself, then?
The school teacher.
Standing Orders lay down the position in relation to the Taoiseach making a statement. I have no notice from the Taoiseach that he is to make a statement.
The House is in agreement.
The Taoiseach made a statement a few moments ago in the House that the is prepared to make a statement. Everybody heard him. If you did not hear him, perhaps the Taoiseach would repeat the statement.
Surely you are not entitled to silence the whole House?
I am not silencing the entire House. The Deputy is perfectly well aware that if every Deputy in the House wished to raise any matter that he thought important we could be here until 5.30 this evening.
That is not the issue. The issue is that there is agreement in the House——
These matters cannot be raised on the Order of Business. I have not had notice of a statement about this matter being raised here this morning. We must have some sort of order here.
The Chair is now on notice that there is agreement that the Taoiseach make a statement on this subject. The Chair is not entitled to silence the House when the House is in agreement on a matter of this kind. The Chair should now allow the matter to proceed.
I do not see any point in continuing. With your obvious collusion with the Government, we will let the people decide.
That is a shameful statement by the Deputy. I did not expect it from him.
Let the people decide. The Taoiseach apparently wants to remain silent——
Rubbish.
Stupid.
Item No. 6—the Minister of State at the Department of Education.
On what basis are you ruling that if there is agreement in the House the business of the House may not so proceed? Which Standing Order precludes that procedure, which has been a tradition of the House since its foundation?
I want to make it clear that I have not had notice that the Taoiseach wants to make a statement. It is usual to inform the Ceann Comhairle that the Taoiseach wishes to make a statement in the House and in such circumstances the Taoiseach is given permission to make a statement.
The Taoiseach told the House——
Apparently you are the only person here who did not hear him.
I am ruling on this matter as I have ruled previously. I have pointed out exactly what the situation is on the Order of Business and I would expect the Members to conform with Standing Orders.
Or very them, if they wish, by agreement.
They can vary them on notice.
We have given you notice. All three leaders have given you notice. Can we now proceed?
I wish to give notice of my intention to raise on the adjournment the following matter, namely, the absence of adequate provision for fire drill in educational institutions in receipt of public funds. I am not clear whether the Minister for Education or the Minister for the Environment is responsible — I trust that at least one of them is.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
When do the Government intend to publish the Finance Bill?
On 24 March.
Yesterday I gave notice that I proposed to ask by special notice a question on the very serious situation in County Donegal where it has been publicly stated at a meeting of the county council that two schools in the county——
I am sorry, it is disorderly to raise this matter. The Chair has already ruled on it. The Deputy has been informed that I cannot allow the question to the Minister for Education because he has no responsibility for the matter.
That was my question. In view of the fact that the fire chief has said that the schools can accommodate only 400 students and there are 900 students in the schools, would you please tell me which Minister is responsible?
That is not my function.
Whose function is it?
It is a matter for the Deputy to find out which Minister is responsible.
It is a matter for me that I should be given a little more help from the Chair.
It is not a question for me at all.
If a tragedy happens—I hope it does not—in many schools not alone in County Donegal but throughout the country, to whom do we attribute blame?
It is not a matter for me.
Who is to tell me? In normal circumstances, if a Deputy puts down a question to a Minister and he has addressed it to the wrong Minister, the question is automatically transferred to the appropriate Minister. Why was this not done on this occasion.
I am not aware of that. The Ceann Comhairle does not transfer questions.
I have been a Member of the House for 30 years and that has always been the practice. Why is a Deputy not told who is the responsible Minister?
It is not a matter for the Chair, so I cannot give a decision on it. Deputy Keating.
With your permission, I wish to give notice of my intention to raise on the adjournment the need to provide jobs in Dublin north city, particularly in the light of recent research which shows an unprecedented degree of deprivation in that respect in the area.
I will communicate with the Deputy. Deputy Browne.
Is there a Supplementary Estimate being introduced——
I have ruled that out. The Minister of State, on the budget. He has three minutes left.