Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Mar 1981

Vol. 327 No. 6

Estimates, 1981. - Vote No. 9: Public Works and Buildings.(Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £67,971,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1981, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for certain domestic expenses; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.
—(Minister for Finance).

I was dealing with the question of decentralisation and I dealt with the centralisation of Government Departments throughout the country. It is a step in the right direction and it has received the wholehearted endorsement of all the Irish people. I appeal to the Minister to implement a more ambitious programme of decentralisation. The private sector could be called upon to participate in this decentralisation. The Minister mentioned that it is hoped to involve the private sector in the provision of public buildings. This is an opportunity to ensure that the private sector play their part. We have a large number of building contractors capable of providing such buildings and we have a number of financiers willing to provide the finance. The Minister should pursue this policy as energetically as possible because there is no doubt about the need for decentralisation. The provision of buildings always seemed to be a problem in this area but the Government should get the private sector involved and then we would have suitable buildings in the shortest possible time.

In relation to the £10 million allocation for arterial drainage, I will refer to the River Shannon, which presents a huge problem in drainage. The draining of the Shannon has been talked of over the years. It is mentioned at every general election and at every by-election being held on either side of the Shannon. Twelve counties are affected by the Shannon, so it is not surprising that it has been a contentious and emotive issue down through the years. However, the people continue to suffer. If money is being made available for the carrying out of a survey it should proceed with all possible speed. The long-suffering rural communities are anxious to see positive steps being taken in relation to the drainage of the Shannon. I realise there is no easy solution to it and that more than the provision of money is involved because of all the varied interests involved. The ESB are involved as well as the Inland Fisheries Trust and various other trusts and they have a vested interest in maintaining specific levels at specific points. I have no doubt that positive action will be taken in relation to the survey because words and promises must be replaced by positive action.

If money from Brussels is available, I welcome it, and I would ask the Minister to make the money available for this project. The Minister mentioned the shortage of engineers but I have no doubt that he will be able to get all the engineers he requires. The best engineers should be engaged. I am not satisfied with the efforts made by some of our more junior staffs. They are not interested or dedicated to their work although they are in sheltered positions and do not need to worry about layoffs or redundancies. We are justified in asking these people to give of their best and nothing else will satisfy the long-suffering community along the banks of the Shannon. I visited people in flooded areas near Athlone and it is a pity that our planners could not visit these areas and see for themselves the suffering of these people.

Successive Governments have talked of this problem but at last the light is beginning to appear. Let us hope that the survey will commence and eventually some progress will be made towards draining the Shannon. Let us hope that when the Minister and his Department start work on the survey they will receive the wholehearted co-operation of all the other interests. I mentioned earlier the conflict between the Department of Agriculture and the engineers of the Board of Works to highlight the problems that exist. When the survey on the Shannon commences let us hope that the ESB, the Inland Fisheries Trust and all the other interests will give their full support and co-operation. That is one reason we need a national drainage authority. At present we have too many Government Departments engaged in drainage, the result being that there will always be areas neglected.

I should like to deal briefly with the problem of the provision and improvement of national schools. Here I should say that the Office of Public Works are not always the culprits, that there are times when local organisations may be responsible for the holding-up of the provision of a national school or the carrying out of improvements to an existing one. One often hears teachers' organisations or somebody else condemning the Government, blaming them for all the problems, but it must be remembered that it is not always the Government, the Office of Public Works or their engineers who are at fault. At times it may well be the fault of the local community.

I was pushing the Minister and his Department for the provision of an extension to a school in the county and, having got the files available, I discovered that those involved at local level had not even applied for planning permission. I give that example to illustrate that it is not always officials or departmental inspectors who are at fault; it may well be local organisations, school managers or others.

I take this opportunity of asking the Minister to make a special effort to have improvements proceeded with at Rochfortbridge boys' national school in County Westmeath. Deputy Enright mentioned another school on the Westmeath-Longford border, at Ballynahown. I understand that a successful tender has been placed for the erection of that school and I see no reason why building work should not now commence. There is another school in my county, situated at Curramore, adjacent to Mullingar where there are three prefabs. They are not very satisfactory and constitute a fire hazard. The recent fire disaster in Dublin should bring home to all of us the importance of having all our public buildings rendered safe, the importance of ensuring that we have buildings that are as fire proof as humanly possible. In my opinion prefabs are neither safe nor fire proof. But they have served a purpose, they have succeeded in providing additional classroom buildings to meet the needs of the day and they should not be condemned just because they are a fire hazard. They were provided nearly always in a temporary capacity to serve a temporary need. Of course the ultimate aim should be the provision of proper, permanent buildings. I hope the Minister will be in a position to proceed as rapidly as possible with the improvement of the schools I have mentioned. This is a matter which always seems to attract a great deal of public attention. Indeed it is one about which very often people's tempers become frayed because of their concern for the wellbeing of their children. We must remember that if we look after our children — the people of tomorrow — then it is an investment in the future and certainly something that will be appreciated by those who benefit most.

The Minister mentioned the provision and repair of courthouses. I do not know if the word "courthouse" was used, but the Department of Justice were involved——

The Chair has already informed one Deputy today that courthouses are not the responsibility of this Minister. There is one special case only.

A County Waterford one.

Courthouses are the responsibility of county councils.

That was the point I was just about to make. To date local authorities have been responsible for the repair, maintenance and upkeep of all courthouses throughout the country. This is an area in which the Office of Public Works should become involved. They are now responsible for all public buildings in the country. They should take over the maintenance and running of all courthouses because in most major towns today they already have the staff — caretakers, office cleaners and so on. I do not see any difficulty in transferring responsibility for their maintenance from the local authorities to the Office of Public Works. I do see a difficulty for the Department of Justice because they are not involved with buildings or their maintenance. The Office of Public Works would be the most competent body to administer and maintain these courthouses. I would respectfully suggest that the Minister examine this question and ascertain whether or not it would be possible for the Office of Public Works to take over their maintenance, making full use of the staff already employed in most major towns.

That is certainly a matter for another Minister. If the law is to be changed and that function to be transferred, that is a matter for another Minister.

In regard to the acquisition and maintenance of national monuments I compliment the staff of the Office of Public Works on their work to date; they are possibly the most competent staff in the country. But I should like to see officials of the office of Public Works, archaeologists and all those employed, taking a greater interest in some of our more neglected national monuments. Probably we have more national monuments than any other country in Europe. It is important that we get to know more and more about our past because, as the old proverb says: a nation which forgets its past has no future to look to. However, I should like to compliment the Office of Public Works to date on their efforts in the field of archaeology. I feel a great deal more has been achieved than that with which their officials have been credited. They have done a magnificent job throughout the country. I should like to see their exploratory efforts extended further because of the value of their work. Indeed, the public have a greater right to know the extent of work being carried out by our archaeologists throughout rural Ireland at present. We tend to hear of their work only when some big issue crops up, such as Wood Quay or the like. But there are thousands of Wood Quay's throughout Ireland, national monuments just as valuable as ever Wood Quay was. These national monuments are being explored and research is being undertaken constantly by the officials of the Office of Public Works. They even have a summer programme when they set to work and engage part-time labour. That exercise should receive more publicity than it does at present.

I suppose we are not the people who can dictate to the national press what they should or should not publish. But this is an area deserving more public recognition than it is receiving at present. The only way the public can be made aware of the activities of these people is through the national and local press. However, I compliment the Minister and his staff on their success to date in this field and express the hope that they continue this useful work. Indeed, I wish them well in their future exploratory work.

When we talk of the £67 million, the total amount of expenditure this year by the Office of Public Works, it is only right that we make some reference to the cost of maintaining our buildings abroad. When we realise that we are an island nation, a nation dependent entirely on our exports, then we realise also the importance of our embassies, the importance of ensuring that our embassies are alert to the needs of the community at home, to the need to develop these embassies and have them properly staffed by people who are competent to explore new markets and to ensure outlets for our exportable goods. We all talk about providing industry but we cannot provide industry unless we have a market for the product we are manufacturing. We can play a magnificent role here and in some areas that is being done.

We can only deal with the buildings, not with the work carried on in them, which would be a matter for the Estimate for Foreign Affairs.

In view of the importance of our embassies and consular buildings abroad, I fully support the efforts being made to provide such facilities. They are more important now than they have ever been before. I often feel dismayed when some people condemn the Office of Public Works for providing such buildings abroad, saying that we should be carrying out drainage in some place or other instead. Both are necessary in this day and age. Therefore it is most important that the Minister and his staff continue expanding the embassies abroad and providing new buildings whenever they are necessary.

There is nothing more I can say at this stage except that I hope the Minister and his staff will examine some of the proposals I have made and consider the criticisms I have made. I tried to highlight the problem areas in the Department. I realise it is not easy to effect changes overnight. But because of the number of people involved in the Office of Public Works there is a need to look at the entire operation to see if certain changes can be made.

I have waited to speak in this debate on the Estimate for the Office of Public Works because I represent a constituency which more than any other is affected by the Office of Public Works because about one-eighth of its land area is controlled by the Office of Public Works. The Phoenix Park and the Memorial Park in Inchicore are just two examples, although I will not confine my remarks to those areas.

Ba mhaith liom focal a rá mar gheall ar An Scoil Lán-Ghaelach in Inse Chaoir a bhí agus atá ag lorg suímh áirithe ag Droichead na hInse in aice le hInse Chaoir. Tá a fhios agam go raibh an tAire Stáit féin ag féachaint ar an suíomh ach ní raibh sé ábalta an suíomh a thabhairt don bhord bainistíochta.

We speak a lot about the revival of the Irish language. In Inchicore there is a very successful all-Irish bunscoil or primary school which was approved by the National Coalition Government. The school has been operating under very difficult circumstances in temporary buildings; they have had to move from place to place. It started as a naí scoil and has developed into a bunscoil and it has been in four different locations. The school asked for a particular site in the ownership of the Office of Public Works at Islandbridge near Inchicore. I know the Minister of State visited the site, and I thank him for it. But he did not allocate the site to the board of management. The reason given was that there is a general policy in the Office of Public Works not to part with any land in their possession. Perhaps the Minister will clarify that. Certainly that was the message that was conveyed to the board of management and to An Cumann Tuismuitheoirí, the parents' association.

I appeal to the Minister of State to review that decision because the site in question is an isolated one at the end of what is locally known as Memorial Park but which I think is referred to in the Department as the proposed Phoenix Park extension. This site is mainly cut off from the rest of this huge public area about which I want to speak in a few minutes. It is ideal for a scoileán-Ghaelach because it is right in the middle of a large catchment area. In fact, if they had that site they would extent their catchment area because it is on many bus routes. It is on or near the Inchicore, Clondalkin, Rathcoole, Newcastle, Drimnagh, Palmerstown, Chapelizod, Lucan, Leixlip and Maynooth bus routes and it is also on the bus route to Ballyfermot. This site is only half a mile from the location where the school started; it would be absolutely ideal and, what is more, that site is not much good for anything else. It is right beside a site which the Office of Public Works gave to the St. John of God Brothers for a special school there which is a great advantage to the area. So there is a precedent. As the St. John of God School is of great service to the area around it, so would a scoil lán-Ghaelach. I therefore appeal to the Minister to review his decision. It is very important and urgent.

Last year I raised this in the House with the Minister for Education and, while he expressed great concern and a great wish to help the school, he was unable to do so. The school started first in a local hall as a naí scoil owned by Conradh na Gaeilge and there was such interest in it that it developed. Eventually they got the use of the local Church of Ireland hall but it got too big for that and, in any event, the owners understandably wanted their hall back for use because it is a very thriving parish. Very intense steps were taken last year in which they were involved, as were other public representatives for the area, in trying to get either a temporary site or a permanent site. Also involved were Dublin Corporation and the Eastern Health Board, both of whom were extremely helpful. A number of sites in the area were the property of the corporation but none of them was big enough, and in one or two cases where they might have been big enough for temporary sites the expenditure would not have been warranted and there would have been difficulty in all the circumstances, given that it is the declared policy of the State since its foundation to revive the Irish language. I tell the Minister of State that here is a golden opportunity to do something tangible about it.

The school left the Church of Ireland Hall, Inchicore Road — which is only a few hundred yards from the site at Islandbridge that I am talking about — last June and they now have gone miles away to classrooms in a school in Crumlin. This is causing great difficulty for the parents many of whom have approached me regularly and consistently even up to this week. There may be a problem in that many of the schools in the general vicinity are now less than fully populated, but if that is the reason why the site is not being given, that should be stated honestly and then the board of management, an bord bainistíochta and An Cumann Tuismitheoirí, would see where they stood. They deserve to know whether their effort in a practical way to help the revival of the Irish language has really got official sanction.

I want to deal with the rest of the memorial park which is in the ownership of the OPW. The Minister of State has agreed to a proposal for a road to cross the site more than half way up Con Colbert Road, the new Chapelizod by-pass. Indeed, it was I who suggested the route about six years ago and recently agreement was given to it, I understand. The site would be cut in two but the road would cut away one part which has been leased to the Dublin City VEC. The rest of the site is now and will remain derelict until something is done about it. One of the Minister of State's predecessors, the late Deputy Noel Lemass, when he was Parliamentary Secretary at the OPW some years from 1969 to 1973, came up with a proposal for a municipal golf course on the whole site. It was also then to be the Phoenix Park extension and I remember seeing plans of pedestrian over-passes crossing the Liffey connecting what was called on the plan the Phoenix Park extension to Phoenix Park proper.

I was very enthusiastic about the plan. Unfortunately, the general election came in 1973 and the local Deputy, Deputy Lemass, was no longer in charge of the OPW and the proposal was dropped. It would not be practical to talk in terms of a municipal golf course for the rest of the site that would be left after the VEC have taken possession of the part of the property which they are leasing, although that would be a good development in itself in that there would be a sporting amenity in the area. Therefore, I ask the Minister of State to come up as soon as possible with proposals to develop or use in some way the remainder of the site known locally as the memorial park. In fact I am talking about that part of the property which is in the possession of the OPW which surrounds the memorial park proper. Perhaps the Minister of State would consider even making the site available on a lease basis — or whatever other basis he would like to consider — to Dublin Corporation so that the much-needed amenities and facilities in the whole area of Inchicore, Ballyfermot and Chapilizod, which are contiguous to the site in Islandbridge, could be developed.

The site in question is right on the banks of the River Liffey, in fact on that part of the River Liffey which I think is the most attractive part within the city of Dublin. I have felt since I was a child — because I was born and reared in the area — that this site has great potential. On the opposite side of the river are a number of boat clubs and on the south side where the site is there is one boat club. A lot of boating goes on in the area and the whole area from Islandbridge to Chapelizod Bridge could be developed into a great boating amenity for Dublin city. Dublin Corporation themselves have bought an old boathouse from a boating club who have built a new one. The boathouse which Dublin Corporation have bought is on the north side of the river and they intend to develop it into a boating amenity for the children in the Ballyfermot-Inchicore neighbourhood. This has great potential.

I know that this is a time of financial stringency and that no Minister has money to throw around, but the Minister, Dublin Corporation, a number of boating interests, probably a number of business interests in the area and Bord Fáilte also could develop an absolutely splendid boating amenity — and not only boating, but a water facility — between Islandbridge and Chapelizod. Chapelizod by-pass goes along the river bank from the city side of the Ranch Estate for some hundreds of yards going towards Chapelizod. On the Chapelizod end of the Ranch the corporation have what was a dump until recently and they are going to develop what will be a useful and very attractive park. Just across the river is Phoenix Park and there are boathouses on the banks of the river. It is a dream area and would be a great addition to the city if the Minister would do something about it or allow the corporation to develop it for the OPW. The Dublin Corporation Community and Environment Department would be very pleased to be involved in this and so would the entire council.

I come now to the biggest single responsibility of the OPW, Phoenix Park. The park is embraced completely in my new constituency of Dublin West. It is bigger than Ballyfermot. Whoever was responsible for the siting of the Phoenix Park deserves the eternal gratitude and praise of the people of Dublin because it is a magnificent amenity. It is appropriate to praise the Minister and the staff of the Office of Public Works for the way it is maintained. It has retained its character. The staff in the park are always very courteous and well dressed. They do their job very well. We are quick to blame the Minister when things go wrong so it is only right to praise him when things go well. I should be grateful if he would convey a message of appreciation to the staff in the Phoenix Park and to the officials in the Office of Public Works whose responsibility it is.

Do we make enough use of the Phoenix Park? I should be glad to have the Minister's comments on whether or not we could have more facilities such as a swimming pool, either indoor or outdoor, without detracting from the amenities of the park. In my travels abroad, when I was Lord Mayor of Dublin, I saw open-air swimming pools in countries with colder climates than ours and they were widely used. They added greatly to the character of the areas in which they were located. Tennis courts were proposed for the park a few years ago but they did not materialise. There should also be basketball facilities. All these facilities could be sited in corners of the park and would not detract in any way from its appearance but would add to the amenities. The Phoenix Park is not used enough. It is surrounded by vast urban development. Until comparatively recently there was nothing outside the park on the Knockmaroon-Castleknock-Blanchards-town side but now a vast new city has developed there. These new areas lack facilities even more than the old areas like Inchicore, Kilmainham, O'Devaney Gardens, Navan Road and Blackhorse Avenue. Apart from football pitches and polo grounds, there are no facilities for physical recreation.

The community and environment department of Dublin Corporation and the community affairs section of Dublin County Council could form a committee on this matter. These two authorities are building and extending new communities in the vicinity of the Phoenix Park and they have to plan facilities strictly within their areas of responsibility. They cannot or do not make refernce to the potential of the Phoenix Park. As a member of the corporation's youth and community affairs sub-committee, I know that the corporation — I am sure the same is true of the county council — would be delighted to develop the Phoenix Park in a way which would not detract from its visual attractions.

The Phoenix Park is a greatly valued part of Dublin. It is very well protected and rightly so. When the local authorities proposed the new western motorway they could not widen the Conyngham-Chapelizod Road which runs right along the park from Parkgate to Chapelizod — the most obvious way to go — because they were not allowed to take a few feet from the frontage of the park. I am not sure that measures which go to that extent to protect the park are warranted. I would have reluctantly moved the wall of the Phoenix Park back about 20 feet which would not have taken away anything from the park and would have facilitated the building of the road. Instead of that the corporation have to build a new bridge across the Liffey at great expense. There is going to be an S-bend at Kingsbridge on the motorway from O'Connell Bridge to Leixlip. They had to build a dual carriageway along St. John's Road from Islandbridge to Sarsfield Road, Ballyfermot, at the Ranch in Inchicore. That also included a staggered junction bridge over the railway at Islandbridge. The corporation have gone to extraordinary lengths to avoid taking a few feet off the park. Their final route within the city proposes knocking down a local public house and several houses, disrupting a whole estate, The Ranch, in Inchicore, and going in front of 80 houses in Sarsfield Road and 30 houses in Saint Laurence's Road, Chapelizod. This was all done to preserve the Phoenix Park. I know it is a good cause but was it reasonable to put the country to such expense and to delay the road by many years in order to preserve the Phoenix Park? I am not sure that the right decision was made, even though the spirit in which it was made was absolutely right.

I want to raise the question of the main road from Parkgate to Castleknock. There are a considerable number of accidents on this road. I do not know how this problem can be overcome. Animals are involved in some of these accidents though many of the accidents are the result of speeding on this straight and wide road which is almost three miles in length. Another factor is the bad lighting on the road and also the absence of markings of any kind. Many people have told me that they would not drive through the Phoenix Park at night because of the difficulties presented by the bad lighting. The whole question of public lighting within the area must be considered in the context of safety on the main road. The provision of markings, too, should be considered. I would not wish to see traffic lights being introduced into the park. Already this city has far too many traffic lights in the form of a so-called solution to our traffic problems. In any case, something must be done to reduce the accident rate on the main road in the Phoenix Park. Perhaps the introduction of ramps might be considered. Regarding the problem presented by the animals, I would not advocate the provision of railings along the main road because these would take away from the whole character of the park. Something in the nature of grids might be considered as a means of keeping the animals off the roads.

Beyond the Castleknock Gate is a vast community of commuters many of whom are dependent totally on public transport. I am aware that I would be out of order in referring during this debate to the transport problems of Castleknock, Blanchardstown, Mulhuddart or the Strawberry Beds but there are many problems in this regard for the people of those areas despite the fact that they are within a relatively short distance of the city. According to CIE many of the problems are the result of traffic delays. While some of the commuters from these areas travel by car, many depend on public transport. Those who have private transport can drive through the park and thereby avoid traffic delays but there is a big problem for those who must travel by bus. I am wondering whether the running of buses through the park would impinge very much on the facilities of the area. On balance, I think it would be a good idea to make this provision so that people could be transported to and from the city within a reasonable time. I expect that CIE would welcome such a move. The ideal might be to provide the bus service at peak times only and on a straight-through basis. Before too long there are likely to be almost 200,000 people commuting each day from the areas in question.

While on the question of the Phoenix Park, I should like to refer to Aras an Uachtaráin. The general decor and condition of this building is excellent. The same can be said of the State Apartments at Dublin Castle and of our embassies though I can only speak for those that I have visited. The Minister and his staff deserve to be complimented in this regard. However, though I am not familiar with the staffing arrangements at Aras an Uachtaráin, it would appear that these arrangements are somewhat deficient since a colonel who is the ADC to the President is the person who answers the door and takes people's coats on their arrival.

Is this a matter for which the Minister has responsibility?

From this year we have responsibility in that area.

I wonder who will be answering the door now. Will it be a general?

I might add that the President is one of my constituents though I cannot say whether he votes for me.

I have my doubts about that.

Perhaps he, too, is disillusioned with the Government.

I am not purporting to speak in any way on behalf of the present incumbent of the Office of President or on behalf of any of his predecessors but I do not think that it is right that the task of opening the door to visitors should rest with a high ranking Army officer. Obviously, the house and the grounds are very well looked after but some consideration might be given to the question of staffing there. At least one would expect that a butler or a stewart would be in residence. In the Mansion House, for instance, there are in residence both a butler and a housekeeper.

I come now to the House in which we have to work every day. The condition in which parts of the House are kept is not something of which we can be proud. I do not think the conditions in which we as Deputies and our colleagues in the other House, and the staff that are there to serve and help us, have to work are adequate. For the press and the others who have to come here for one reason or another, I do not think the facilities and services of the House are up to scratch. This applies from heating — which is either too hot or too cold — to cleanliness in certain cases and to accommodation, although there have been improvements in that regard. There is still not enough room. I do not want to go into too much detail but parts of this House are below standard not only for the Houses of Parliament but for any public building. That extends from chipped cups in the restaurant to smelly toilets and I say that absolutely seriously.

I would not think the Minister is responsible for the cups.

It is all part of the same problem. The Minister is responsible for the heating arrangements and they are appalling. One is either drained by excessive heat or goes out with pneumonia from excessive cold.

The heat is retained at a certain temperature every day.

Not in this actual chamber, I fear; it changes very rapidly sometimes.

I never thought I would see the day when we two would agree, but it is a fact. The Minister is wrong. Generally speaking, although there are exceptions, when the Dáil is sitting the temperature is too hot and when the Dáil is not sitting it is too cold. The offices can be freezing one day and boiling the next. I should be grateful if the Minister would address himself to that problem.

In talking about the Phoenix Park I omitted to mention the former Apostolic Nunciature. This was to be developed as an official residence for the Taoiseach. The Minister now says that plans for the adaptation of the former Nunciature building to provide a national heritage centre and park administration — maintenance centre are being prepared. He goes on to refer to the new information centre and car park at Knockmaroon Hill. That will be opened next week and I am grateful to have received an invitation. I regret I shall not be able to attend as I shall be out of the city. I am not sure that we are utilising the potential of the former Nunciature in having it as an administration — maintenance centre. I am a little appalled at that proposal. I think that is a real come-down from the proposal to have it as an official residence for the Taoiseach.

The official residence is being converted to an information centre.

A national heritage centre.

But we understood it was to be the Taoiseach's residence.

It was, but that was shot down.

The Nunciature itself is being converted into an information centre——

I do not know what exactly that means. Perhaps when the Minister comes to reply he will elaborate on what is involved. The administration — maintenance centre puts me off. I felt there was great potential in the Apostolic Nunciature, which is a lovely place. I do not know who looked after the grounds. It can be even lovelier. I am not sure that the proposed use is the best possible and I should like the Minister to consider that matter.

I am glad that the Minister is proposing improvements at the Ordnance Survey Office. These are long overdue. I am also glad to note that a new building for the State Laboratory at Abbotstown is in progress and that a grain storage complex is being built there also. I welcome those developments, which are in my constituency, and are all very badly needed, as is the second stage of the new Garda headquarters at Phoenix Park. That is also long overdue. The more I read the Minister's speech the more I realise what there is in it about my constituency. A new Defence headquarters is proposed and I presume that will be at Parkgate where the present building is.

Finally, I again appeal to the Minister to change his mind by a personal decision about the site for An Scoil Lán-Ghaeleach, Inchicore. This would be a great contribution to the revival of the Irish language in the south west of the city. The school has shown its worth and the Minister can give it the very large boost it now needs by deciding to allocate a site and then I hope the Department of Education before too long would give approval to go ahead with this school.

I shall comment briefly on a number of aspects of this Vote. I shall be primarily concerned with the Vote as it relates to the Department of Justice but in general I want to make this point. Many figures given in this document and referred to by the Minister, when compared with figures given previously in similar documents and in the Estimate this time last year or in former years, give one the impression that these figures are made up as we go along and are not really anything other than a sort of symbolic sum which we can discuss in the House, have no real studied evaluation and are not the outcome of any cold analysis of how much money the Government are spending or should be spending in these areas or what value for money, they are getting. In other words, this debate is not as meaningful as it could be since it does not seem to be actually about the sums which are being spent. It is about estimates which are £1,000 here or there, take it or leave it, approximate. In some cases they are estimates about sums which are, indeed, not yet estimated.

That situation is very unsatisfactory because there is no evaluation of value for money. What I fear is the creeping paralysis, the creeping and growing burden of expenditure in the State sector for buildings, Departments, and new areas of development, many of which are necessary and essential, many more the essential nature of which has to be proven. In general there is not a high standard of efficient management of public property. Offices visited — be they Government Departments or other agencies — tend in general to be inefficiently heated, inefficiently managed, with files and desks all over the place and staff, in some cases, having to work under conditions under which nobody should be asked to work. I do not believe that anybody is actually running that whole situation. It is just growing and producing tentacles like some vast octopus and I am not sure whether it is going to be strangled in the end. I know that its increasing cost and the output being given are matters of serious concern and, indeed, serious evaluation.

The area of the Department of Justice, for instance, is one which needs some study. We have here, under items 56, 57, 59, 63 and 64 interesting areas which show what I mean when I talk about an erratic, unplanned programme of development. It is high time that the Government of the day listened to the pleas of people involved in the administration of justice for significant improvements in relation to court facilities and Garda stations. This country this year witnessed, for the first time in my memory a walkout by gardaí in stations in which it would not be appropriate to house a dog. Whenever I have the opportunity I take pleasure in visiting the Garda station of whatever town I am in and some of them are very good. The majority are extremely moderate and it is extremely questionable as to whether they are suitable accommodation. A significant minority of cases are below the standards of human habitation and should be closed down or rebuilt.

Deputies on all sides of this House are quick to pay lip service to the Garda in the event of a tragedy, to stand up and mouth from the lips out their gratitude to them. Of course we are grateful. Let us show our gratitude. I shall give the Minister one example and ask him to please refer specifically to this in his reply. I have made in this House on three separate occasions a simple request, which would not cost a lot of money, that the gardaí who serve this House on the back and front entrances be given the decency and respect of not being asked to stand out there in all kinds of inclement weather when there are only a few of us in the House, winter and summer, without some kind of cover. After I had raised the matter the third time, the Minister conceded that there was a case.

Initially, the objection was security and so on, but I was able to point out that all around the country adjacent to prisons, for example, going away back to the sixties when we had IRA prisoners in Mountjoy Prison, we had no trouble in facilitating gardaí locally with some kind of appropriate hut. I asked for, and obtained, the commitment of the Minister nine months ago for the provision of such quarters at the exits from and entrances to this House. Nothing has been done and the winter has now gone. Every time one drives into and out of this House, one witnesses gardaí standing in the cold and the rain. They deserve better treatment. It would not be a big job. In fact, in front of the House on the Kildare Street side there is a readymade alcove which needs only modest conversion and which, with the appropriate material, would not put anything at risk at all. That would show that we mean what we say when we talk about respecting the gardaí and being grateful for what they do for the State. Instead, we stand them in conditions which any worker, no matter how allegedly menial his job would be, on any site in or around the city would not tolerate. We should not ask anyone, unless it is unavoidable, to stand, day in day out in the rain and snow. That is the value which we place on the gardaí. That is the reason why around the country this year we have had gardaí leaving stations saying "We are not going to stay in here".

The appropriate representative bodies in the Garda should be more militant about getting decent conditions for their members. They have put up with too much for too long from too many of us. It is unfair and unreasonable for this House to be, on the one hand, blackmailed by various private sector groups into conceding any claim which is going, if our civil servants, gardaí, teachers and nurses — those from whom it is expected that there should be a particularly selfless vocational response — must put up with an image of the service long outdated. Give these gardaí the conditions to which they are entitled. if we do not give them those conditions, we shall be asked to pay a price in due course. Younger men, and perhaps not so young, will not put up with it. Why has it taken nine months to get a little bit done about those men? This is a request which I had to repeat over two years. That is unforgiveable and unacceptable.

Just ten days ago, Justice D'Arcy in the courts reiterated the pleas of many others when he said "Will the State please provide decent court facilities?"

I am sorry, Deputy, I have already ruled on, I think, four occasions that courthouses are a matter for the local authorities and not for the present Minister.

May I refer to it peripherally under item 57, courts of justice — provision of jury courtrooms. I shall be very brief. Bearing in mind that the local authorities are now funded 100 per cent by the State, if the Government do not give them the money the local authorities cannot provide these facilities. They are not the responsibility of this Minister, I accept that.

In item 57 there is a sum to be provided for the provision of jury courtrooms. Could the Minister do whatever is necessary to rectify situations where not alone the jury have not got adequate accommodation but where, in cases in the greater Dublin area, clients and counsel have to stand outside the courtroom to consult because conditions are so bad? If it is not up to him, would he use his good offices and good influence with his colleague Ministers to make sure that we obtain at least the infrastructure whereby justice can be done?

In that general context of the efficiency of public buildings it would be reasonable for the Minister to say "Deputy Keating, where is the money to come from?" I suggest that in this general area we might consider utilisation of existing buildings far more than at present. For example, I do not believe that it should be necessary to provide new, columned courthouses all around this country if decent court facilities are to be provided, as they are needed and should be provided. There is no reason, particularly in areas where courts meet occasionally, why existing buildings — perhaps used by the community, perhaps used by public bodies, buildings which have, a part-time use such as, for example, a school hall — could not be looked at with a view to greater efficiency and greater utilisation.

In other words, I do not accept the underlying thinking in this Estimate that every time this House meets to discuss this Vote we must inevitably conclude that this year's Estimate will be, on average, 20 per cent higher than last year's, plus a few bob thrown in to meet local needs and so on. It does not have to work like that. A proper and thorough revaluation of value for money of public buildings is long overdue. Instead of having three separate buildings serving different purposes, let us see if one building could be run in a different way, perhaps being used for longer hours, but not, I suggest, by the staff employed for one particular use. Let us see if that could be done. There is no reason why an information centre could not be run from a public office on Saturdays, nor is there any reason why school halls could not be utilised for certain purposes with the co-operation of the parties involved. I remain totally unconvinced that we are getting value for money in this area.

The estimated total cost for items Nos. 63 and 64 are not yet to hand. They refer to the erection of new Garda stations and major and minor improvements schemes. The provision last year was a total of £230,000 for No. 64 and £1.25 million for No. 63. In respect of both items this year there is no estimate of expenditure.

I have made it a practice to visit Garda stations all over the country and I was always received most courteously. Gardaí are very placid. They will not complain too readily. In general the member in charge will show you around and one sees for oneself the conditions of the buildings. Some are old buildings, which are converted, panelled, partitioned and so on to try to make existing needs fit but — and I defy contradiction — these buildings which are meant to be the offices of those who guard the security and peace of this State do not hold a candle to even the most moderate businessman's office. I know business people in this city and, if they were asked to occupy these offices, even their most junior typists would object — they would not stay in them for one hour before they would walk out. Yet we expect the gardaí in some cases to live in such circumstances, and to work and preserve the safety of State. I do not accept that that should be the case. If the Minister is willing, this side of the House will be very supportive of introducing whatever Supplementary Estimate is involved to ensure an immediate upgrading of all such stations.

I will go further: some aspects of such upgrading would be very labour-intensive. When we go around many of these buildings, not just the Garda stations, we see windows which are stuck, radiators which were painted nine or ten years ago and have not been turned on or off since. That is the situation in this House and that is one of the reasons why the heating is like this. This is sloppy, inefficient, negligent management of our resources and it is not good enough. In any average Irish town the offices likely to be the most inefficient and expensive are those in the charge of the State and the worst offenders are the local Garda stations.

I do not want to see a situation where gardaí have to walk out in order to underline their concern for their conditions. I want those stations upgraded immediately. If the Minister would do us the honour in the light of the commitment of his colleague by providing the appropriate huts or protection from the elements for the gardaí at both sides of this House, I would be very grateful. It should not be necessary to raise this matter in this House for the fifth time. Let us show that we mean what we say.

Many Deputies from various parts of the country will not perhaps be as aware of this as Deputies who are here five days a week. Over the Christmas period and during January and February, come rain or snow, the sight of pale-faced shivering gardaí was something to behold nine months after the Minister for Justice promised in this House to do something about it. He told me the Office of Public Works were working on it. Will the Minister please get this done now?

I want to ask about item No. 66, the Garda Training Centre, Templemore, swimming pool improvements. The estimated total cost is £250,000. I do not know what kind of swimming pool is involved. Am I right in believing that that pool has been the cause of complaints from the date of its construction about the quality of the workmanship involved? Is that one reason why this money is being sought? Was there a major flaw in that pool? Were there complaints about leakages? If so, what is being done about it by the contractors, or is the State expected to pay £250,000 of hard-earned money to make up these deficiencies?

I am very disappointed to note under the Justice section of this Estimate that, despite the crying need for a new children's court, for new permanent courts and for new public record offices, the estimated total cost is not yet available. This indicates that we are not as concerned as we could or should be. The expenditure for last year is not available. This, too, indicates that this document is a scaffolding within which we can discuss figures, but it is not meant to be taken literally. When are these Dickensian conditions, these conditions of disgraceful and absolute antediluvian standards operating in our children's courts going to end? When can we provide unfortunate parents and children with some kind of decent place to have their problems dealt with? Why must it be that the people who have to walk through our courts day in and day out have to put up with these conditions? The fact that this Estimate is presented in this way is an example of our lack of interest in this area.

I was very distressed earlier this year to learn that what I believe should be a national monument, namely, the Papal Cross in Phoenix Park, had to be the subject of public acrimony before action was taken.

Debate adjourned.
Top
Share