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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 31 Mar 1981

Vol. 328 No. 3

Restrictive Practices (Confirmation of Order) (No. 2) Bill, 1981: Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The object of the Bill is to confirm the Restrictive Practices (Motor Spirit and Motor Vehicle Lubricating Oil) Order, 1981, which was made on 4 March under section 8 of the Restrictive Practices Act, 1972.

At the Minister's request the Restrictive Practices Commission carried out an inquiry under section 5(1) of the Act into the operation of the Restrictive Practices (Motor Spirit) Orders, 1961 to 1975, into any other matters germane to the operation of these orders and also into conditions which obtain in regard to the agreements under which stations which are company-owned but not company-run are operated.

The principal orders which the commission considered were made in 1961 and 1972. The 1961 order regulates the "solus" system of trading — the system under which a retailer undertakes to deal exclusively in one brand of motor spirit. The 1961 order also prohibits certain restrictive practices in relation to the supply and distribution of motor spirit and lubricating oil. The 1972 order imposed a ban on the opening of additional company-owned petrol stations for a period of three years. This ban was extended by several orders the latest of which was made in December, 1980 and it extended the ban to 18 March 1981. I am advised that when this Confirmation of Order Bill is passed the order becomes retroactive. Provisions of the order being confirmed will apply from 4 March, the date it was made.

I attach particular importance to a number of recommendations made by the commission for the amendment of the existing orders. The first, affecting the supply and distribution of motor spirit, is that it should be illegal for a petrol wholesaler to fix a minimum delivery level to uncontracted outlets at more than 4,000 litres — 888 gallons — in the cases where only one grade is being delivered or 5,000 litres — 1,100 gallons — where more than one grade is involved.

Deputies will probably recall that early in 1980 one of the major oil companies informed its uncontracted customers, that is, non-solus customers, of its intention to introduce a minimum delivery of 5,000 litres — 1,100 gallons — of one grade or 7,000 litres — 1,500 gallons — where more than one grade of petrol was involved. The commission considered this development very relevant to their terms of reference and they reopened the inquiry to deal with it.

A representative of the company which made the proposal accepted that the setting of a minimum delivery of 5,000 litres — 1,100 gallons — would automatically exclude those stations which at present have storage for only 1,000 gallons. In fact, it appeared to the commission that stations with 1,000 gallon tanks could consistently take deliveries of no more than about 4,000 litres — 888 gallons — because these tanks can contain up to 70 gallons of slurry and, in addition, the order would be even less than 930 gallons since allowance has to be made for a carry-over; the trader would not want to run out of stock before a delivery was made.

There is a large number of stations with 1,000 gallon tanks and I do not consider their level of efficiency to be so low as to justify their disappearance from the market. Furthermore, their disappearance would cause problems for the consumers. For these reasons we have decided to agree with the commission that the proposed 5,000 litre — 1,100 gallon — minimum delivery could not be accepted.

However, we are satisfied that the few 2,500 litre — 500 gallon — tank stations are in a different class, and it is quite probable that in any event they will not remain in business much longer because they are unlikely to meet the cost of converting to metricated petrol pumps — something which has to be faced shortly.

Accordingly, in the interests of efficiency and economy in distribution, petrol suppliers should be free, within reasonable limits, to decide on levels of minimum deliveries and I am satisfied that the commission's proposals are fair and reasonable. The order provides that where a wholesaler decides to fix minimum deliveries they may not be lower than 4,000 litres — 888 gallons — of one grade or 5,000 litres where two or more grades are a delivery. The provision merely empowers the companies to introduce these minimum deliveries and I hope that, insofar as possible, companies will adopt a more liberal policy than the letter of the law provides for. In particular, I would urge the companies to give the smaller-capacity outlets reasonable time should they opt to increase their storage facilities.

The second important recommendation in the report which is provided for in the order relates to the ban on additional company stations which has been in force for about nine years. The restriction is in the public interest because, otherwise the overall share of the retail market held by the petrol companies would be much greater with the undesirable results of increased rigidity in the market and the danger of restrictive or discriminatory practices. Company retail outlets numbered 476 in 1979 compared with 514 in 1973. Retail sales by company-owned stations fell from a maximum of 38.1 per cent of total sales in 1973 to 35.7 per cent in 1974 and did not exceed 36.8 per cent in 1976, 1978 and 1979. It is clear that the orders stabilised the number of company-owned stations and their share of the market. The removal of the restrictions would not be justifiable but it is accepted that some modification is called for.

The provisions of the existing orders were designed to leave such a share of retail sales in the hands of independent retailers — those who are not tied to petrol companies — that it would be possible for new wholesalers to enter the market. However, it was represented that the ban on new company-owned stations made it impossible for new wholesalers to set up a number of retail stations around which to build up a network of independent retailers. Deputies will appreciate that a new wholesaler in any line of goods has problems and that a new petrol wholesaler — perhaps an unknown quantity so far as the trade is concerned — might find it very hard to entice retailers from their normal source of supply. There is no intention of sabotaging the existing wholesalers but we are satisfied that the emergence of new wholesalers, who could, perhaps, exploit non-traditional sources of supply of petrol, should get certain minimum facilities.

Accordingly, we have provided in the new order that every wholesaler, existing and prospective, should be free to have 20 retail outlets. Some have more than 20 at present and they will be free to retain as many as they have, but any company with fewer than 20 stations can make good the short-fall. And, of course, new wholesalers can open up to 20 stations, which should give them a reasonable launch into retail distribution.

There was a provision that allowed a station to be opened within three miles of the site of a station from which traffic had been diverted by road developments or which was compulsorily acquired. This did not enable companies to respond to changed conditions in relation to new housing schemes, shops, factories, traffic flow and so on. To provide for this, there is a provision in the order that any company should be free to open up two new stations in any year if it divests itself of a like number in that year.

It has been calculated that the provision to allow additional company stations, subject to a maximum of 20 per company, will not increase significantly the petrol companies' share of the retail market; and, of course, the opening of new or replacement stations will be subject to the Planning Acts. What has been provided in the order is no more than reasonable.

The Restrictive Practices Commission reported that in 1978 234 out of 478 company-owned outlets were held under short-term arrangements — that is to say, licences or agreements with a term of less than three years. I am satisfied that these figures have not changed significantly since 1978. Evidence given at the inquiry made it clear that the legally weak position of the short-term operators in their dealings with the companies, particularly as regards security of tenure, was a great cause of concern in the retail trade.

The companies took the position that if they were to give longer leases there would be undesirable consequences for them as long-term lessees could concentrate on other activities at the site at the expense of petrol sales because of the low margin on petrol. It was reported that average through-put in existing long-lease outlets is very much lower than in other company outlets.

While no evidence was found that in general the companies have treated their short-term operators other than in a reasonable and humane manner, it is clear that the lack of security of tenure of a station is likely to leave an operator more susceptible to pressure in such matters as trading hours, rents, promotional activities and so on — most of which will, or be likely to, add to selling costs without a guaranteed comensurate increase in profits.

What we are providing for in the order is that all short-term operators of company stations should be holders of licences which would run for three years with a right of renewal on fair and reasonable terms unless the company discontinues the operation of the station for a stated reason and in accordance with prescribed procedure. In general terms, the reasons for terminating a licence are: failure of the licensee to perform his statutory duties; failure to pay money due to the company; serious breach of contractual obligations; failure or inability to run the station satisfactorily; reaching an age limit set by the company; or the decision of the company to dispose of their interests in it, to close it down or run it otherwise than through a licensee.

Where the question of a breach of contractual obligations or the failure or inability of the licensee is disputed, the licensee has the right to go to arbitration; and where the company decides to dispose of it, close it down or run it otherwise than through a licensee, the licensee will be entitled to compensation. The notice to be given is prescribed. Ordinarily it will be three months but in exceptional circumstances — if there is a serious threat to property or life or any other incident classifiable as force majeure— the notice can be reduced to whatever in the circumstances is reasonable.

All existing licences will be deemed to contain provisions indicated in the order and the existing licences should be, in practice, in all respects the same as licences drawn up after the order comes into force.

Where the question of compensation on termination of a licence arises, the amount of the compensation will consist of (a) payment of one-fifteenth of the licensee's net income for the previous 12 months for each year a licence or short-term lease has been held continuously, plus (b) the full cost of redundancy payments due by the licensee to employees, plus (c) payment of the wholesale price of stocks held by the licensee. There is a provision which applies where a company say that they propose to dispose of a station, close it down or run it otherwise than through a licensee and it turns out that this reason for not renewing a licence is spurious. In that event the compensation will be doubled.

The order provides that disputes in the matter of rents, trading hours, engaging in other activities — that is, other than the sale of petrol or oil — should also be arbitrable.

The arbitration arrangements will be binding on both parties and the arbitrator will be a person appointed by the President of the Incorporated Law Society.

What I have outlined are the main provisions to give better security to short-term occupants of stations. Needless to say, I would have no objection to their all getting long-term tenancies which would have the protection of the Landlord and Tenant Acts, but this is not something which could reasonably be imposed on the companies and — perhaps more important — fair terms and conditions on which long-term leases would be offered would often be beyond the capabilities of short-term operators. Many of them, I feel sure, simply could not afford to pay the higher charges which could reasonably be expected when a company tied themselves under a long-term lease.

One of the recommendations of the commission was that the existing orders should be consolidated and it is in everyone's interest that people inquiring into the law relating to motor spirit distribution should not have to work their way through a series of orders. Therefore, much of the order we are confirming reiterates such basic statutory rules as the ban on differentiation between traders of the same class; the circumstances in which suppliers may and may not apply different terms and conditions to different classes of traders; exceptional circumstances in which supplies may be refused; provisions relating to solus agreements; the prohibition of certain agreements and arrangements to restrict persons rights to trade, and so on. The basic rules have been in force for 20 years and except for some minor additions and amendments made — mainly in 1972 — they have stood the test of time and are still appropriate.

In addition to the major additions I mentioned earlier, there are a few others I think I should draw the House's attention to.

There is a provision in an existing order that a solus agreement shall not be for a term in excess of ten years and no loan agreement, mortgage or hire purchase agreement can require a retailer to tie himself to a supplier after the expiry of his solus agreement. So far as it goes, that is still a good provision. But Deputies will appreciate that, if a retailer who is not a solus retailer still owes money to a supplier after his agreement, lease or licence expires, it will be difficult for the retailer to cut himself adrift and look for a new supplier. I have no grounds for suggesting that a retailer would often want to look for a new supplier but the commission recommended, and we have accepted, that a supplier should be free to pay off in advance, and in a single payment at any time he chooses, money due to a supplier whether the amount was due in one payment or in instalments. The order provides that, where there is interest payable, it should be reduced by such amount as may be appropriate having regard to the date and the amount of the repayment. But the interest, whether or not it is reduced, has to be repaid at the same time as the repayment of the capital sum.

It is accepted that a supplier should be free to require a solus retailer to keep a petrol station open during reasonable hours, but the commission recommended, and we have provided, that the times of opening and closing should be left for the retailer to decide.

In the course of the inquiry one supplier considered that the use of their brand name and trade mark should be restricted to the contracted independent and company-owned stations. They said that during the petrol shortage in 1978 some stations were selling petrol which purported to be their brand whereas it was obtained from another supplier. They considered that this could lead to quality control problems and was not fair to their image. I am satisfied that the company had a grievance in certain respects and there is nothing in the order to prevent a supplier from recovering, or requiring the removal of any sign, which would convey to the public that a special degree of association existed between that station and that supplier. On the other hand, however, the public are entitled to know what brand of petrol is being sold from a pump and there is a provision in the order that a wholesaler shall not prohibit, restrict or penalise the display on a pump used for dispensing motor spirit an indication of the brand being dispensed by the pump.

I am satisfied that the order we are confirming contains all the provisions required to regulate in a fair and equitable way the trading relations of petrol wholesalers and retailers. I commend the Bill to the House.

I am glad to see the Bill before the House after such a long time. Many people with interests in petrol retailing and, I am sure, the companies themselves were anxious to know what would be contained in it, and we know now what is contained in it. The Minister of State finished off his contribution by saying that he was satisfied that the order contained all the provisions required to regulate in a fair and equitable way the trading relations of petrol wholesalers and retailers. I think he is to some degree expecting too much from the order and being too optimistic in relation to its implementation. There are sensible recommendations both in the commission's report and incorporated in the order concerning the distribution end of the business, such as the degree of market share which any company should have.

I note the contradictions in the speech of the Minister of State and what is in the retail grocery order, something about which I will be talking later on this evening. The position in relation to the minimum volume for delivery purposes at 880 gallons is a sensible approach and it is accepted in the trade that any retailer who has not a capacity of that kind of volume is really not in a viable position to continue trading. I appreciate also that there are in some few circumstances cases where this is so and I accept the encouragement by the Minister of State to wholesalers not to pull the carpet too quickly from under those people so that they can continue trading and providing a service for their customers albeit for a short period. The other restrictions on the further extension of the number of outlets is a welcome innovation and the indefinite continuation of the previous order can be accepted as a sensible and workable approach.

The report contains figures in relation to company-owned outlets held by licensees under short-term arrangements. It would seem that about half of the company-owned stations are still run along these lines. Short-term arrangements are defined as a period of less than three years. The order now being confirmed by the Bill has what I would regard as shortcomings and has serious implications for the people involved who have waited so long for the publication of the recommendations. There are concessions in the order. It is accepted, and in the commission's report it has been stated time and time again, that the position which obtained up to now in relation to short-term licence holders was very vulnerable.

In the commission's report it is stated that, while it was accepted that long-term tenants were more or less adequately protected by the Landlord and Tenant Acts against the danger of non-renewal of term-expired leases or of renewal on much worsened terms, it was maintained that short-term tenants and licensees were being deliberately kept in a position that their occupancy of their stations could be unilaterally terminated, or the terms of the occupancy unilaterally altered to their disadvantage, at any time a current agreement expired. That statement of fact was accepted by the commission and I also accept it.

Having admitted that, the commission should also have accepted the fact that there are two categories of people running the stations. There are long-term lessees who are protected under the Landlord and Tenant Acts and short-term lessees for whom there is no protection at all. What do we find? A gesture made towards these people. This has come up over the past two or three years when orders were being confirmed for the continuation of restrictions on the expansion of company-owned outlets.

When he was asked by me and other Members of this House about the unsatisfactory position of these people the Minister, Deputy O'Malley, always had the stock reply that he was awaiting the recommendations in the commission's report. He got that report and accepted the recommendations without question despite the fact that he is on record in this House as being in total sympathy with them and their untenable position in relation to the companies from which they leased outlets. He created expectations among those people that he would do something when the time came, but that it was wise for him to await the commission's report. He awaited it and we now find that a gesture is being made towards relieving the burden which has been on their shoulders for years.

Up to now these people were subject to an annual renewal of the licence. This yearly renewal has now been extended to a three-yearly period at the end of which new terms, conditions and regulations can be included in the new agreement which the lessee may or may not accept. If he accepts the new conditions, everything is fine. In the normal trading experience new conditions of this type apply extra burdens on the lessee. The company are in a very advantageous position. They can change the conditions for leasing their property at three-yearly intervals. The one to three year extension is a relief to some degree. The kernel of the problem is insecurity of tenure. That same insecurity is still there. Tenancy by right is still denied to those people.

This is a very strange approach by the commission and the Minister. There is a very strange admission in relation to the Landlord and Tenant Acts. In paragraph 6.12 it is stated that the petrol companies had devised systems which avoided the constraints which the Oireachtas had intended should rectify the imbalance of power between owners and occupiers of sites. This House debated in detail the Landlord and Tenant Bills. Down through the years the petrol companies have devised methods of avoiding the provisions of those Acts. They succeeded in avoiding the constraints of those Acts. Even worse they will continue, and are being allowed to continue, to avoid those constraints. When those Bills were being discussed it was the intention of this House that these constraints should apply to those people. The obvious thing to do was to ensure that these companies would not be allowed to avoid the provisions of the Acts which were meant to apply to them as well as other landlords.

Paragraph 6.13 reads:

The SIMI also considered it unreasonable that an operator who had made a substantial investment of money and time in running a business should be liable to eviction at short notice when his agreement expires.

Paragraph 6.14 of the commission's report states:

The petrol companies for their part made no secret of the fact that one of the reasons they prefer short-term leases or licences is in order to avoid incurring the restrictions of the Landlord and Tenant Acts.

Those are astounding admissions in the commission's report, from which one would expect some positive approach that would eliminate the facility to avoid the restrictions of the Act.

The Minister has failed to provide the kind of protection this vulnerable category of people need so badly. Their expectations on this were built up by the Minister during the past 18 months. The only thing they have now at their disposal is that they can resort to arbitration. The only time they can resort to a court is if they are accused of trespassing. I assume their services would have been dispensed with by the company and they would be deemed to be trespassing on company property. In all other cases of renewal of agreements and licences they can only resort to arbitration. After the confirmation of this order anybody who signs an agreement arising out of this order is signing away his constitutional right to have recourse to the courts. There is a case awaiting judgment in the Supreme Court, Irish Shell v Costello. The High Court found in favour of Irish Shell and the client appealed that judgment to the Supreme Court. Judgment is expected to be given on whether or not the agreement between the company and the operator of the retail outlet is a tenancy agreement or purely a licence. That question has yet to be answered.

The commission are in fact stating that the licence is not a tenancy clause. The Minister is seeking to confirm an order which in effect is saying the same thing even though the Supreme Court have not given judgment on this specific question. There always has been provision under the 1954 Arbitration Act for the president of the Incorporated Law Society to set up a body. The kind of cases arbitration of this kind was meant for are cases of a limited matter. This is not a limited matter. We are talking here about the livelihood of people and the taking away of a livelihood by somebody else. I do not believe anybody except a judge sitting in a court is in a position to give a ruling on such a serious matter. It is not a limited matter in the legal sense. If one looks at the legal, social and moral position here one realises that there are cases of individuals and their families who have given 20 or 30 years of their lives and their investment to building up turnover and sales in a retail petrol outlet. They have spent long hours working in those retail outlets but they have no right to tenancy or no right to having any input to any form of agreement that might be put before them for signature. The only thing they have now is a three year licence period which replaces the annual licence period and they have resort to arbitration in certain cases. They have not the right, which in all justice any person in the country should be entitled to, the right to go to court and fight their case if they feel, on legal advice, they have a case to make. I do not believe the order goes any way towards meeting the expectations of those people or meeting their rights as citizens of this country.

The question of whether or not their agreements are tenancies or licences has still to be answered. It is a very important question because if they are tenancies the Landlord and Tenant Acts applies to them and they are given the full backing of Acts of the Oireachtas. The Commission have admitted that those companies have been avoiding this. That is the reason why half of the operators of those petrol stations are today on short-term leases. The companies will not allow them long-term leases because if they do those retailers will come under the terms, provisions and restrictions of the Landlord and Tenant Acts.

It is a very disappointing day for these people. While the matters concerning distribution, market share and so on are important in their own way to the people affected by them, surely they are peripheral to the major item that was being discussed, the outcome of which was eagerly awaited, the status of petrol station operators operating on behalf of companies. It is unjust and it cannot stand up morally. Many people have spent 20 and 30 years with their families working alongside them and they have invested thousands of pounds to improve their lot and by doing so they increased the sales of the company for which they operated. Now the companies refuse to grant them the basic rights which other people take for granted. This commission stopped short of granting them the rights to which they feel they are entitled and now the Minister's order is also stopping short of giving them rights which other people take for granted. Going through the commission's report one can always expect some reference to what is happening in the UK. In paragraph 6.30 of the report in relation to the interest of the company and the interest of the operator, disagreements between them and so on, there is a reference to what is happening in the UK. It says:

In this connection, our attention was drawn by some of the companies to an arbitration scheme operated by their associated companies in the UK in circumstances broadly similar to those with which we are concerned. We have made some enquiries about the operation of this system and we are satisfied, having received legal advice, that certain features of it would be suitable to Irish needs. Our recommendations are set out in the following paragraphs.

We are again looking over our shoulders at the UK without looking at the pitfalls and the shortcomings in their scheme. We are accepting from companies who operate schemes to their own advantage in the UK their recommendations in relation to what is operational in the UK. Could we not for once in our lives stand on our own feet and approach this as a problem relating to Irish people who have been under severe pressure from multinational companies who do not know their own strength? It is a very disappointing order for the people, who expected more from it in relation to their vulnerable position as operators of company owned outlets. The Minister ought to take another look at this order and he should look at it as purely an Irish problem. Many of these people have been exploited and this exploitation will continue. The overall result is that people are still left in much the same position as they were. They are deprived of the rights to which they are entitled and which most of us take for granted.

My principal criticism arises in relation to the third paragraph of the Bill and it is an administrative criticism in this regard. At the Minister's request the Restrictive Practices Commission carried out an inquiry under section 5(1) of the Restrictive Practices Act, 1972, into the operation of the Restrictive Practices (Motor Spirit) Order. Am I right in assuming that it took three years to get the report in relation to the motor spirit inquiry? I find it incredible that it should take three years to do this work.

I am advised that it took about 15 months and that there were a number of breaks.

I am somewhat confused here. There was a general motor spirit inquiry and did it not take three years?

Page 10 of the report says:

Notice of Intention to hold the public enquiry was published in the daily press on 27 July, 1978.

That is the point.

The public inquiry commenced on 19 January 1979 and in February 1980 the commission had completed their report.

I am not au fait with the general operation of the Restrictive Practices Commission — I am most familiar with the prices side of the investigations of the National Prices Commission — but there is a very serious need for strong public criticism where a notice of intention to have an inquiry is published in 1978 and we get the report in 1981. An explanation is owed for that. A great deal of the work of the Restrictive Practices Commission is unduly prolonged. Whether one holds the Examiner, the Restrictive Practices Commission or the Minister of the day responsible, we in the Houses of the Oireachtas are not unduly concerned. We are concerned that many of the inquiries appear to be very protracted. While I accept that many of the matters are extremely complex, I think that people who work full-time on such matters should be able to produce reports in a reasonable time. For example, in July 1977 a decision was taken to hold an inquiry into below cost selling but it took the Restrictive Practices Commission 18 months to report on the matter.

If the motor, oil and petrol industries are to have confidence in the operations of the Restrictive Practices Commission it is obvious that the reports of the commission will have to be issued within a reasonable time. If a person took a case to the Supreme Court he would get a decision more quickly. I ask the Minister to take note of my critical comments on this matter.

Generally, I accept the recommendations in the Bill before us. To a substantial degree the provisions in the Bill will meet current needs and it is important that they be implemented as quickly as possible. It will be necessary to assess the situation over a period of a year or two. As soon as the order is implemented there should be a through and continuing monitoring of its effects over the next two years and the Minister should not hesitate in his own right, to bring in further amendments if they prove necessary. The Minister should give specific responsibility to staff in his Department to have the situation monitored and he should publish a progress report within 18 months or two years. At that point we will be able to assess the effectiveness of the measure.

I wish to make one point which relates to the provision that certain matters are to be arbitrated. I notice that the report from which Deputy O'Toole was quoting refers, as so often happens, to what occurred in England. It refers to an arbitration practice of the same material in England although I do not know if arbitration in that country has a statutory basis. The report Deputy O'Toole was using states that the Department here, having taken legal advice, were of the view that the arbitration system was suitable to Irish conditions. I do not know what form the legal advice took. I am not an expert on restrictive practices law and I cannot claim to have digested very thoroughly the order and the legislation that has preceded it. However, it appears to me that the Minister and his Department would want to go very carefully here. If the Minister can satisfy the House on this, if discussion on Committee Stage is postponed until next week, it may turn out there is nothing in what I have to say.

There are three provisions in the order where arbitration is mentioned. The first is the provision referring to the termination of a licence. Incidentally, I should like to point out that the form in which these orders are debated here is very inconvenient although I accept it is not the fault of this Minister or his Department. It is extremely difficult to have to go through an order containing 30 pages without the assistance of side notes and heavy type for the number of articles in the way that Bills are presented. Government Departments should submit orders in the format used in the bound volumes of statutory rules and orders. That would make things much easier. Article 28 (4) states:

Where a licence is terminated in pursuance of clause (iv) or (v) of paragraph (2)(b) of this Article, the licensee may refer to arbitration the question whether the supplier concerned was entitled to terminate the licence, and the supplier shall join in the reference and the licensee and the supplier shall be bound by the award of the arbitrator in the arbitration.

What we are talking about is the termination of a licence which has a certain legal status. That licence may amount to a ticket for his livelihood on the part of the licensee. It is not just a dog or radio licence we are talking about but a licence to run a business on which a person may depend for his livelihood. We are talking in connection with the termination of something that may be just as serious for a person as is striking off the roll for a solicitor. In the context of solicitors the Supreme Court has said plainly that to deprive a man of his livelihood is a very serious matter and cannot be described as a limited matter which Article 37 of the Constitution permits, in civil cases and non-criminal matters, to be decided by persons and bodies other than judges and courts.

When one is talking about the termination of a licence in this kind of context one is talking about something which is inherently not suited to decision by an arbitrator. Of course, people are free contractually to bind themselves in any way they like. They can bind themselves by contract into even very serious things, even things which will amount to depriving them of a livelihood if they go wrong. I can see no reason why parties might not privately agree to submit such dispute as might arise between them to arbitration and to be bound by the result. Such agreements are quite common in the world of insurance. But they rest on contract, they rest on a freely negotiated arrangements between the company and the proposer, the person who wants to be insured. That is not, or does not seem to be, the case here. What seems to be the case here is that the licensee, in other words, one party in this situation, is being given the right to refer the question to arbitration and, if he does that, the supplying company is bound to join in the reference and both himself and the supplying company, the supplier, are bound by the award of the arbitrator. In other words, if I may just start with a company — although of course with a company one would not pretend that the matter in their instance is a question of their livelihood—the company is apparently at the option of the licensee, or of the former licensee, and the company is apparently bound to accept and is bound by the award of an arbitrator. So far as this dispute is concerned between the company and the supplier, the company is deprived of that which it otherwise would normally have and which in my view it cannot be deprived of, namely, its right to resort to the court for a determination of an issue of law. And this is an issue of law, if I have not misunderstood the purpose of the order, because it is an issue arising on a legal regulation of this area which the Minister here proposes. I do not want to be polemical about it and I may have misunderstood the law. I began by saying I had not studied this measure very carefully; in fact I did not even realise it was to be debated today until Deputy O'Toole drew my attention to it around lunchtime. However, from the short examination I have given it, it seems to me that, from the supplier's point of view, no question of an option arises. He is apparently being forced into an arbitration, forced into accepting a method of adjudication other than the adjudication of a judge in a court. There is ample authority in this country for the proposition that there is a basic right to resort to the courts — and I do not mean to an arbitrator but to the courts — for the settlement of a dispute. In particular the High Court is given, by Article 34, a full and original jurisdiction in the power to determine all questions and matters of law or of fact, civil and criminal. Therefore, a purported subtraction from that power of the High Court by this article here, I think is questionable — that is, so far as the supplier is concerned.

Of course the licensee is in a different situation. The wording of the sub-article here is:

....the licensee may refer to arbitration the question....

Laymen find it difficult to understand that word "may". I must say I do not find it easy to be sure about it myself always either. In an instrument like this the word "may" does not always mean exactly what it seems to mean. There are contexts in which "may" means "must" and I am not sure which one is here intended. I think that on the whole, it is intended to be an option. I cannot imagine it is intended that the law, in the sense of the courts and the judges, should be ousted by the operation of this sub-article but I should like to be told that plainly by the Minister. On the face of it, it looks as though the licensee whose licence is terminated because of an alleged breach of contract, for example, has the option to have the question of whether or not he is in breach of contract determined by an arbitrator rather than a court but that if he wished he could insist, go ahead and have the matter decided by a court by bringing a declaratory action against the supplying company.

But if it is genuinely an option — in other words, if this is intended to be in ease of the licensee, to give him a facility which he otherwise would not have — I honestly think it should be made somewhat clearer. If, on the other hand, what the Minister intends is to exclude the court altogether from the option of this scheme, in my view that is very questionable. We are talking about a very serious matter from the point of view of the licensee — not perhaps from the supplier's point of view but from that of the licensee. We may be talking about his livelihood. And if it really is intended to exclude the court and judges from determining questions on an issue on which his livelihood may depend, then, for what it is worth, my view is that this order will be invalidated, will be struck down by the High Court quite soon, as soon as the first licensee wishes to challenge it.

Sub-article (4) of Article 29 contains a similar provision:

Where a supplier refuses,..., to grant another licence upon the expiration of a licence, the licensee may refer to arbitration the question whether the supplier was entitled to refuse to grant the other licence and the supplier shall join in the reference and the licensee and the supplier shall be bound by the award of the arbitrator in the arbitration.

Here again it looks as though the licensee is being given an option. It looks as though, in ordinary language, he is being given merely the facility of having an arbitrator appointed, though that of course still does not avoid the hardship on the supplier who appears to be, if the order means what it says, prevented from having his ordinary resort to the court. But if it does mean that the licensee is obliged to resort to an arbitrator, and if the Minister's intention is to prevent them from resorting anywhere else, then it is just as questionable as the first of these provisions.

The third one is in sub-article (2) of Article 32, Which says:

Where there is a question whether compensation under this Order is payable to a person by a supplier or a dispute or difference as to the amount of such compensation, the person may refer to arbitration the question, dispute or difference and the supplier shall join in the reference and the person and the supplier shall be bound by the award of the arbitrator in the arbitration.

Here again I think the House would like to be told plainly whether or not this is an attempt to exclude the courts. If so, depending on how serious the matter is, I would imagine that it is constitutionally fragile. I do not want to raise an alarm about this. I would be perfectly happy if the Minister says — well, he can say either of two things; it may be that I have misunderstood the thing; it may be that there is no such intention, that I have misunderstood this or that I am ignorant of some item of law which would answer this question quickly and simply. But, if that is not the case, the Minister I hope would at least say — and this would satisfy me fully — that he will ask the Attorney General's Office to look at this aspect of his order between now and Committee Stage of this Bill.

I should like to thank Deputies for their general acceptance of the Bill. I shall try to deal as best I can with the questions Deputies have raised.

First of all, I do not accept that there has been any change of mind on the part of the Minister in relation to acceptance of the commission's recommendations. The recommendations which have been implemented confer a security not previously enjoyed. When licenses expire, they are renewable. This right can be lost only in certain circumstances and, for the greater part, where it is lost compensation must be provided. It would seem, therefore, that the new conditions for these operations will generally be so improved that licensees could enjoy all of the rights of a tenant under the landlord and tenant legislation with the exception of the right of assignment. The essential thinking was that all rights pobsible, up to the right of assignment, should be enjoyed. To facilitate this the provisions we enacted were the only ones possible.

Regarding the question of arbitration, it is suggested that it is far better to provide specifically for arbitration than leave it to a small trader to go to the courts so that in this way the costs and delays involved in protracted hearings might be avoided. Again, it is not intended that a person be debarred from going to the courts. Deputy Kelly raised a question in relation to the word "may". The intention is that it should be optional. It is not the intention to preclude access to the courts. The exercise of the option would ordinarily be cheaper and quicker and the provisions are accordingly considered as being a facility for the licensee. It is not intended to deprive the licensee of the right to go to court. I trust that satisfies Deputy Kelly.

I am sorry to interrupt. Let me briefly say that that certainly satisfies me so far as the licensee is concerned. However, the supplier is still stuck because, if the licensee opts for that mode, the supplier is apparently bound by an arbitration and is apparently kept from resorting to the courts. That is the case if the words of the order mean what they say.

The order cannot now be amended, but I will check that matter out. If Deputy Kelly is concerned about the problem, we will consider the matter.

I am perfectly happy if the Minister will have the point looked at.

The order itself has gone a long way towards helping to improve the existing situation. The question of the Supreme Court was raised by Deputy O'Toole. Here, again, if any amendment is considered desirable on foot of a court decision there is then the possibility that introducing such an amendment would be given consideration.

Deputy Desmond raised the question of the length of time taken for this report to be put forward. The position is that the Restrictive Practices Commission have many things to deal with. It was not a question of their sitting down for a whole 15 months on this particular item. They have been dealing with many other matters and must, from time to time, deal with matters which are regarded as urgent. This has not helped towards having the report produced as quickly as we would have liked. Another point is that, apart from the actual drafting of the order and printing of the report, the Minister is required to consider the common good before deciding to proceed with the making of the order. All these matters had to be gone into before the order was made. In relation to a matter raised by Deputy Desmond, orders made under the Act are monitored by the Examiner of Restrictive Practices. If any problems are uncovered, such remedial action as is necessary will be urgently taken.

I think that covers, as briefly as possible, most of the points raised by the Deputies. Again, I thank them for the manner in which they have accepted the Bill.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

The Minister gave an undertaking that he would look into the question raised by Deputy Kelly in relation to arbitration. I suggest that he should leave Committee Stage until later.

I understand that the order may not be amended now, but I undertake to have a look at the question. If necessary, we can have it amended at a later stage.

I appreciate that the order cannot be amended now. The necessity for amendment would come up as a result of any queries by the Minister. It would be appropriate that that be brought to the notice of the House. I do not know what format the Minister would propose to use in bringing it before the House if necessary.

It would be necessary to have this confirmed by a further Bill.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment and passed.

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