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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 21 Jul 1981

Vol. 329 No. 5

Financial Resolutions, 1981 (Resumed): - Financial Resolution No. 5: Excise—Hydrocarbons.

I move:

(1) That in this Resolution—

"the Order of 1975" means the Imposition of Duties (No. 221) (Excise Duties) Order, 1975 (S.I. No. 307 of 1975);

"the Act of 1981" means the Finance Act, 1981 (No. 16 of 1981).

(2) That the duty of excise on mineral hydrocarbon light oil imposed by paragraph 11(1) of the order of 1975 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 22nd day of July, 1981, at the rate of £17.32 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in section 35(1) of the Act of 1981.

(3) That the duty of excise on hydrocarbon oil imposed by paragraph 12(1) of the Order of 1975 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 22nd day of July, 1981, at the rate of £11.67 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in section 35(2) of the Act of 1981.

(4) That as on and from the 22nd day of July, 1981, the rate of any repayment allowed under paragraph 12(11) of the Order of 1975 in respect of hydrocarbon oil on which such repayment is allowable and on which the excise duty mentioned in paragraph (3) of this Resolution was paid at the rate of £11.67 per hectolitre shall be £9.88 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate allowable immediately before the 22nd day of July, 1981.

(5) That the duty of excise on gaseous hydrocarbons in liquid form imposed by section 41(1) of the Finance Act, 1976 (No. 16 of 1976), shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 22nd day of July, 1981, at the rate of £0.48 per gallon in lieu of the rate specified in section 35(4) of the Act of 1981.

(6) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

The general effect of the resolution is:—

Firstly to increase the rate of excise duty on petrol by 3.64p per gallon. This increase will attract an additional element of 0.36p in value-added tax making a total tax increase of 4p on a gallon of petrol; secondly, immediately to increase the rate of excise duty on diesel oil used in motor vehicles by 3.64p per gallon. This increase will attract an additional element of 0.36p in value-added tax making a total tax increase of 4p per gallon; thirdly to increase the rate of excise duty on liquid petroleum gas (LPG) used in motor vehicles by 8p per gallon.

The 7p per gallon duty on other oils and on LPG for non-automotive use is not affected.

On the side of reliefs, the resolution increases the present rate of repayment in respect of diesel oil used in buses operated by persons carrying on a passenger road service within the meaning of section 2 of the Road Transport Act, 1932, so that there is no "net" increase in duty on the diesel oil used in these vehicles.

The resultant increase in revenue in the current financial year will amount to approximately £6.2 million, of which £4.7 million is attributed to petrol, £1.3 million to road-diesel and £0.2 million to motor vehicle LPG, or £14.0 million in a full year.

The cost of increasing the rebate on diesel oil used in buses is estimated at about £0.27 million in a full year; £0.12 million in the current year.

In the case of previous duty increases Deputies have asked questions about VAT that I did not anticipate but as the questions were asked I might as well anticipate now that questions will be asked and go on to say that on and from 1 September 1981, the 10 per cent rate of VAT will increase to 15 per cent. This will further raise the tax content of a gallon of premium grade petrol by 9.4p approximately and a gallon of auto-diesel by 8p approximately. It is estimated that the increase in VAT will yield an additional £4.4 million VAT in relation to oils this year or £29.4 million in a full year.

I should point out that LPG is not liable to VAT and so the aggregated increases between excise duty and VAT in the two phases will amount to 13.4p on petrol, 12p on auto-diesel and 8p on LPG.

Would the Taoiseach say what effect this has on the CPI?

It is quite clear that the Government have not given any consideration at all to this aspect of these increases.

I can give immediately the amount relevant to what we are discussing. The VAT effect is slightly more complex. The effect on CPI of the 4p on petrol, 4p on DERV and 8p on LPG is .116 per cent.

It seems extraordinary that the Taoiseach should be so flippant about the effect of increases being introduced in the budget today or that he should say that it is difficult to state what the effect of the VAT increase is. It appears the Taoiseach is not interested in inflation or in the effect of decisions taken here today. It is amazing to think that no thought has been given to the effect of the combined price increases on the CPI as from 1 September.

With respect, the Deputy is making a rather puerile point. We are dealing with a resolution on excise duties and, strictly speaking, we should stick to that. To facilitate the Deputy and in view of the fact that in previous cases questions were asked about the further effect of VAT, which we have not yet come to, I have answered questions in relation to that matter. I could very well have told Deputies to wait until we got to that resolution, but I wanted to help the House. The information readily available to me in relation to this resolution is that the total effect on the CPI, including the effect of VAT, is 0.38 per cent. There is nothing flippant about our approach in regard to this matter. We are dealing with this resolution now but Deputies opposite are anticipating in relation to VAT. That information is in a different section of the file. Deputy Fitzgerald is entitled to ask for information and I am more than happy to give it to him.

The Taoiseach is not conferring any favours on me by making those remarks——

Just being a little out of order.

When he was introducing the resolution he referred to the impact of the price increase as a result of the excise duty and also the VAT increase as from 1 September. The Opposition will ask for full information when items like this are brought before the House. I should not like him to think he is doing us any favours by commenting on the effect on the CPI. What is being proposed here is a substantial and harmful increase that will affect employees and employers. The Taoiseach may say that last January the price of diesel oil and petrol was increased. That is so. At that time he and his colleagues who are now in Government were extremely critical of what was proposed. They pleaded the case of the urban and rural motorist and said what we proposed was a savage imposition on them. How much more savage is what the Government have done today?

Other severe hardships will be imposed on motorists also. There will be an increase from 40 per cent to 50 per cent in excise duty on cars, a 50 per cent increase in respect of VAT on new cars and there is also the matter of the restoration of road tax. That is all in addition to the increase of 13.4p on petrol and 12p on road diesel. All of these increases will impose severe hardship on workers who must travel to work.

What is proposed in all the Financial Resolutions will be highly inflationary. The newspapers spoke about all the midnight oil burned by the Government, but I am not so sure it was burned wisely. Perhaps the meetings, if they took place at all, were very short. Certainly little thought was given to the impact of what was proposed here today. This inflationary budget will have a serious effect on any wage negotiations that take place this year.

The Taoiseach must be aware of the contributions made by the Tánaiste and other members of the Government earlier this year during the budget debate. They spoke then of the need to compensate for loss of income. The erosion of earnings will be so great as a result of this budget and will be so much to the detriment of people that I fear the outcome. In concluding the budget debate in February or March, the Tánaiste said that a contributing factor to industrial relations problems — since 30 June there seems to have been an abundance of them — was the lack of concern by the Government in imposing inflationary taxes. Here again is an example of a complete turnabout by members of the Government.

Last week there was a demonstration by road hauliers. I do not support a demonstration that disrupts traffic and business as happened in that case, but that does not mean I have not some sympathy for those people in the difficulties encountered by them. What is being proposed in the budget will impose further hardship on that industry. I am sure the Taoiseach is not surprised at the outright opposition expressed by us to the resolution before the House. Every Member has an obligation to examine his or her conscience in voting on this resolution. We know that increases in petrol and diesel oil have a spin-off effect of a disastrous nature that goes far beyond the impact on the CPI.

I am not surprised at the view taken on this matter by the Opposition. The degree of inconsistency in their previous remarks is not surprising. I should like to refer to what was said in 1980. I do not endorse any of the remarks, but it shows what can be said in these debates. It was stated that if we look at it purely from the economic point of view any Government could be justified, from the point of view of the balance of payments in particular, in putting on some sort of tax in order to get people to cut down on their consumption of petrol. Any Deputy who is honest about this will recognise that would be totally justifiable in the overall national interests having regard to the unprecedented increase in our balance of payments deficit largely as a result of an increased consumption of oil. The balance at that stage was some fraction of the £15 hundred million towards which it was heading when we came into office.

It never was nor would it have been.

He went on to say that it would cause some inconvenience and perhaps some hardship here and there, but by and large the ordinary motorist could adjust his motoring habits to economise to the extent of saving this amount in his weekly motoring. Those were the comments of the present Leader of the Opposition in respect of a 20p increase in petrol in 1980. I do not endorse those remarks. The much more modest imposition involved in these two increases, 13.4p between them, are one third lower than what was imposed then. They will cause not just some inconvenience but a lot, and not just a little hardship here and there, but a lot of hardship. I will not delude the people as the former Taoiseach did when he spoke in frivolous terms about the increase of 20 per cent.

The Deputy fears the outcome of what we are doing, but we and the nation as a whole feared the outcome of the continuation of the people opposite in office and of their policies. Had they continued those policies the effect would have been disastrous. I do not wish to broaden the debate but I am answering the points made and the phrases used.

This increase involves a significant increase in the price of petrol. The tax proportion of the price of petrol after these two impositions will be 49 per cent as against 51 per cent after the last budget. I accept that that is a reflection of the spiralling cost of petrol imports and imports of oil products generally. This increase does not keep up with the increase in the price of petrol and next September taxation will be a smaller proportion than it was left by the last Government when they imposed 15p on top of the 20p they had imposed in the previous budget.

I would not pursue that if I were you.

That 15p was just to cause a little hardship here and there and could be met by adjusting motoring habits. In the light of those remarks by the then Taoiseach we cannot take too seriously the automatic opposition expressed by the former Minister for Finance.

I regard this imposition as savage. The present Minister for Defence on several occasions spoke about people who lived away from industrial centres. The Minister is from County Meath, the same constituency as the Minister for Finance, and would be very much aware of this. Many workers have to travel by car from their place of residence to Dublin and consequently a car would not be a luxury for them. We had to be very careful not to put on too much excise duty and tax and to keep fuel prices as low as possible.

Due to the success of the Government between 1977 and 1981 in the development of industry in rural Ireland many industries were set up. By the very nature of things a rural dweller is some distance from a factory and consequently this penal imposition will be very severe on him. In my native parish young people learned the mining business in Canada and, before the strike, were mining at Navan. This involves travelling 34 miles each way for most of these workers. That kind of travel will be severely penalised by this increase.

We depend largely on manufacturing industry and particularly that which exports its goods. Inevitably this increase will bring pressure for higher wages which will add to inflation. If one is in the export business, one's competitiveness will suffer. The cost cannot be passed on in the open market to the customer as it can be in the case of the ESB or CIE. The Government have spoken about the pressure on wages. They complained about increases that brought pressure on wages and increased inflation. Like the Indian Chief, they are speaking with foreign tongues when they speak about dangers in inflation, pressures of the market, the danger of pricing ourselves out of the export market, the danger to the púnt in the EMS and at the same time are doing something that has the most far-reaching effect on the worker. It is easy to do without a car if one lives in Dublin 4, but if one has to travel 35 miles it is not easy. The success of the development of rural industry may be at risk.

There seems to be an attitude that a car is a luxury and that we should force people to cut down on their use of petrol. How can a worker who has to get to his place of work cut down on the amount of petrol he uses? In the mines a worker could be on night shift and he would not have very much energy for spending money on petrol skylarking around for the weekend. The Taoiseach seemed to indicate that there was frivolous expenditure on petrol. The people I am talking about, who will suffer by this and whose expenditure will impact on the demand for wages, should be taken into consideration.

The Minister for Finance might consider making a list of manufacturing industries and particularly those with a big export business. I have often toyed with the idea that it should be possible to treat them more easily in the income tax code because they are so important in the economy. There are other important industries and services that can pass on costs to the consumer, but I am talking about people involved in increasing the volume of exports.

We heard a lot of caterwauling about the balance of payments. We are not really logical or consistent when we do something like this. The person I am talking about is not only being murdered by 13.4p on a gallon of petrol but will pay more for his car tax, which has been resurrected by the Minister. The Minister should consider seriously what he is doing and should exempt those involved in manufacturing industry and depending to a great extent for their existence on competitive exports.

The Taoiseach mentioned cutting down. In Western Europe there has been a 25 per cent cut in the use of oil over the last 12 months. People are sensible enough to use the oil as sparingly as possible, but before I sit down I wish to say to those people whose case was made very often in this House by the now Minister for Defence, who lived in an area which was on the move to Dublin, that it is not merely the Dublin area or its hinterland that will be affected by this proposal but that every rural area in which a successful industry has been established will be affected. The continued success of these manufacturing industries, these exporters, will depend to some extent on keeping down their costs, but harm is being done to them by this increase in excise.

First we should consider what the increase is, because there was a time when a Minister for Finance when proposing changes in duty would tell the House what would be the ultimate net effect to the consumer. We have not been given any such information today. The Minister for Finance is seeking in this instance, as in others that we have dealt with already, to wash his hands of the direct consequences of the changes in duty. The immediate change that will have to be made in margins for retailers in relation to petrol, which is one of the two principal items here, will be something more than 2p per gallon. This means that in effect the increase is not 13.4p but slightly in excess of 15.5p.

The Taoiseach made what I considered to be a remarkably weak argument in replying to Deputy Fitzgerald on this point. The Taoiseach said that the proportion of tax in the price of oil is less than it was 18 months or two years ago. We know the way in which taxes have increased, but the point made by the Taoiseach demonstrates how much the inherent price of oil has gone up and the difficulties that this is creating for so many businesses and individuals. In that situation, a situation which is demonstrated in the Taoiseach's figures, one would have thought that the last thing a Government who wished to stimulate the economy would do would be to increase further the price of an item that is being pushed up in price all the time anyway from outside sources. Therefore, the Taoiseach's argument defeats the point he is trying to make.

This resolution is divided into six parts. It seems to be very technically worded and I am not sure which paragraph refers to which oil. However, I should like to refer in particular to what I call heavy oil, which is black oil as distinct from petrol, diesel or any of the light oils. The House will recall that in the budget of, I think, January 1980, an additional duty of 5p per gallon was put on that oil. That increase was the subject of a good deal of criticism at the time. As one might expect also, it was the subject of much debate within the Cabinet as to whether such an increase—an increase which had been imposed originally by the previous Government in 1975—should be made having regard to the damage it would do to industry. But when the yield of the additional 5p per gallon was pointed out there was a compelling case from the point of view of the Exchequer and of the Department of Finance that it should be included and, albeit very reluctantly, I went along with it.

In 1980 the yield in that respect was £45 million. I would estimate that the yield in 1981 in respect of this proposal will be of the order of £50 million to £60 million. I do not think anyone will be in a position to put an exact figure on it until the end of the year. The Minister tells us that he is halving that additional 5p, but if the House cares to refer to his speech, it will find that he will save £6 million in a full year and £500,000 in this year. Apparently he considers that he has fulfilled his promise, but how can one fulfil one's promise to remove a level of taxation which runs at almost £30 million by removing £6 million worth of revenue? It seems to me to be perfectly evident that when we see the Finance Bill that is to follow on this budget—that is, if we ever see such a document — we will have a very long section which will begin by halving the rate of duty and then going on to state that, for instance, subsection (a) does not apply to the following, the following being a list as long as one's arm.

Late last year because of the concern I had in relation to the effects which this unfortunate duty was having on all industries and because of the very serious effects it was having on some industries, the then Government devised a scheme of energy conservation grants whereby reliefs might be given to some of the hardest hit industries by way of their devising energy conservation schemes. In effect this was a way of trying to relieve them of some of the hardships caused by the taxes. This hardship was particularly evident in those industries in which a high proportion of costs was due to the cost of energy. That scheme cost the Exchequer £2 million but it benefited only a handful of firms. Indeed, only one firm got any worth-while benefit from it while about eight others derived limited benefit from it. Under this hydrocarbon arrangement we are to get a rebate of £6 million. On the basis of the experience I have just outlined I estimate that about 24 companies will derive some benefit from this scheme while most of the others will get very little. Is that not a flagrant denial again of the undertaking that was given to halve that tax? We will not know how the whole thing is to operate until we see the Finance Bill.

The proposal before us is to come into operation straight away but I wonder how it is to be administered. There is no section of a Finance Act to guide the Revenue Commissioners. Yet, administrative action is to be taken. How is the whole system to be worked out? Some of these changes become effective tomorrow but this one will not come in until later. I am dealing with the resolution on excise on hydrocarbon oils of which there are six types.

On 10 June last, Fine Gael supported The Irish Times to the extent of a one-third page advertisement. The advertisement stated: “Fine Gael Nail the Big Lie”. On the top left hand corner, top of the left, was a picture of a nail in a wall, with the word “lie”. The advertisement stated: “Lie: There will be huge increases on petrol, beer and spirits. Answer: Fine Gael will strictly control the prices of these items”. An event happened the following day which was a poor thing for the Irish people. The advertisement dealt with housewives and what they would get within weeks of the budget, the £9.60p. That was lie No. 2 that was nailed. “Everybody will pay more tax”. That was another lie they nailed. With Fine Gael, only people earning more than £50,000 a year would suffer. The next one was about VAT. I do not think the nailing of that lie catered for the 50 per cent increase in VAT which we have seen today. The remainder of that historic advertisement can be discussed on a more suitable occasion than this when we are discussing only increases in the prices of various types of oil.

We will now have the dearest petrol in Europe. It is a distinction which changes from country to country from time to time. We are now in that situation. We certainly will have the dearest motoring in Europe because this budget is unique. It does not just increase the price of petrol: it increases the cost of new motor cars by increasing the excise duty on them, by increasing VAT on them. It re-imposes road tax on cars and at the same time imposes a substantial increase in duty.

One would worry less about it if we had an efficient public transport system, but since this Government came into office the public transport system has not operated in the capital city. When the strike has been settled finally, somebody should go out and take a film or a photograph of a bus moving in Dublin because if it happens between now and the end of July it will be the first bus that has moved in Dublin since Fine Gael and Labour came to office in the year of our Lord, 1981.

Every one of these resolutions will have a deep and heavy impact on the tourism industry, not least this resolution in relation to petrol. Having started the year not with prospects but with bookings which indicated that this year would be the most successful year ever for tourism, we are now unhappily in the situation, thanks to the H-block people and their sympathisers, that we are having the worst tourist season ever. Nails in walls and in coffins seem to be fashionable with the Government, and these eight resolutions dealing with drink, motor cars, petrol and various other things that are of concern to tourists are the final nail in the coffin of that unfortunate industry which, because of currency differentials between here and Britain, this year could have had its best year ever.

I am concerned particularly about the impact these measures will have on our health services. I know how they will operate in practice. I am particularly concerned at the statements made by the Minister for Finance. He spoke about a whole range of increases in ESB charges, hospital costs and the VAT changes, which will have an enormous effect on the general health services, in the cost of the many items that have to be purchased for those services. At the same time the Minister spoke about further substantial savings which will have to be made in the health services. He joined them with the Department of Justice, the Environment, Education and Defence and estimated that £31 million will have to be saved by the end of the year. In this measure the proposals will have a profound impact on the cost of providing health services, on the community based services, in particular, on the hospital ambulance services and on transport generally in the health services.

Does the Minister intend to make any special allocations to the health services to cover these extra costs? Does he intend to provide a special allocation to cover the additional costs which will be incurred by the health services because of this resolution? An enormous amount of work has been done in the last two years to try to reduce energy costs within the health services generally, including a major study of the longer term needs which was carried out by the ESB on behalf of the Department of Health to establish whether long-term arrangements could be made for further savings. This would involve new equipment, new machinery, arrangements for new heating systems. In the short-term these savings could not be made, though some savings have been made, and because of that the health services have been working to a tight budget.

This measure alone will impose a considerable additional cost on the health services and I should like to know if the Minister intends to make any special allocation to the health boards, to the voluntary hospitals and the health board hospitals, the homes for the handicapped and for the psychiatrically ill. I know the normal procedure is to advise the Department of Health and the health boards to find means to absorb such costs. I am afraid health boards will have exceptional difficulty and will face the problem of seriously reducing services, thus putting services at risk, if they are to absorb these increased costs, plus the changes in VAT.

I should like to make a few points on the price of petrol which is the one that will mostly affect workers, particularly those in rural areas. The majority of the workers in my area have to travel each day to work in Galway, driving 25 to 30 miles per day. To them, cars are not luxuries — they must have them. I made that comment when the Fianna Fáil Government increased the price of petrol. I said it was too much, that it was the straw that would break the camel's back. Whether the increase be 13p or 15p, those people must buy two gallons of petrol to get to and from work. The pint and the packet of smokes are luxuries, but they will pay 9p extra for those as well. I do not know how you are going to get these people to accept the wage which they have at present and how inflation is going to be kept down with this type of budget. I am referring to the smaller type of farmer who has not big tanks of milk and who has bought a car for taking his small tanks of milk to the creamery each day. Every small farmer brings his milk in tanks behind his car, and all those people are going to be affected by this increase. Some of the other items which the Government are taxing are luxuries anyway but a car to an ordinary worker or, indeed, to any person is not a luxury and the tax in this area has gone too high entirely. The Government have made a big mistake in putting this further tax on petrol.

I can see the point being made by Deputy Callanan. Indeed I can appreciate that the increased cost imposed on workers as a result of any increase in the price of petrol, whether it be an increase in excise duty or in the price of crude oil, undoubtedly causes a problem and I have not the slightest intention of attempting to deny that. However, I indicated in my speech that this was not going to be an easy budget. I indicated that raising revenue is never easy and when one is confined, as we are, by the nature of the situation that we face in the middle of a financial year in regard to raising revenue, one is forced by the circumstances to have recourse effectively only to the indirect taxes. The problem in increasing some of the other indirect taxes — Deputy Callanan referred to what he described as luxuries and I presume he had in mind things like cigarettes and alcohol — is that one does not have an unlimited capacity to increase the price of those commodities without running into what is known as elasticity of demand. In other words, people stop using them and the State stops getting revenue. In selecting the taxes that we increased on this occasion I am afraid that we had to go across the whole range, including petrol.

It does not give me any great pleasure to be defending this increase but, as I explained in my speech, we face a very serious financial situation about which action had to be taken immediately. Once the Exchequer return figures for the end of June, the first six months of the year, were published — they were not published before the previous Government left office but they were published just after we came into office — in the interest of the country it was incumbent upon us to take action to raise a sufficient amount of revenue or to reduce expenditure to such an extent that some measure of balance would be brought into our budget. In facing that situation quickly we could not have recourse to the other taxes. I explained why we could not have recourse to income tax and I explained also the situation in regard to capital taxation. In that situation there was really only one area of taxation to which one could turn and that was indirect taxes. One of the major indirect taxes from which revenue can be obtained, albeit at a cost and I do not attempt to minimise or deny the cost, is that on petrol and that is what we did. The House will appreciate that previous Governments have done this in less severe financial circumstances perhaps than the one we face now. Circumstances being faced at the moment are more severe than any on record. Other Governments have increased the tax on petrol by substantially larger sums than it is being increased on this occasion. That is my answer to the point made by Deputy Callanan. I can agree in large measure with the argument he is making but I must draw a different conclusion in the interests of protecting the currency and our balance of payments and providing sound public finances so that money will be there next year to meet services which have to be met. We cannot confine our concern solely to this year. Of course, there would be no problem in letting things run for this year. Probably we would survive for the next six months without doing anything. The problem would be the following year and the year after, and the time to act is now.

I was intrigued by the contribution from Deputy Woods who referred to the need, in view of the increase in petrol prices, to make a special allocation to the health boards. As those Members of the House who were here in January will remember, there was a very substantial increase in the price of petrol on that occasion, larger than the present one, and I do not recollect Deputy Woods making any special allocations to the health boards on that occasion.

They were covered in the Estimates.

They were not covered in the Estimates because the Estimates were published before the budget and the budget increases in the price of petrol took place after the Estimates had been published. There was no special allocation to the health boards after the budget and I am afraid that Deputy Woods's case does not impress me in the least.

I will explain that tomorrow or whenever the day is.

I am sure I will look forward to that explanation.

Does the Minister mean that he is going to go back on what was made available to the health boards? That is what I read from what he is saying.

The Deputy can read into what I have said no more and no less. I will turn to Deputy Wilson who, unfortunately——

I ask the Minister to answer the question, is he making any allowance?

The allowances that will be made will be no less generous than those made by Deputy Woods when he was Minister for Health because he made no allowances for a larger increase in the price of petrol which occurred after he had made the provision for the health boards on the previous occasion. We will leave it at that.

I will turn to Deputy Wilson who is not here. He referred to the problem of manufacturing industry. I would like to point out to him that we in our programme will be providing substantial improvements in the competitive position in manufacturing industry. We will be reducing the price of heavy oil used by manufacturing industry and, as I indicated in my statement, we will also be reducing the level of pay-related social insurance contributions falling on such industries. The idea here is in recognition of the point made by Deputy Wilson that at least substantial sectors of manufacturing industry face competition problems. They have to compete with similar industries elsewhere and one should act to reduce the cost. That is precisely what we said we would do in our election programme and that is what we are going to do in Government in regard on the one hand to pay-related social insurance and on the other to fuel oil. That more or less deals with the point made by Deputy Wilson.

However, the main point that I wish to make in this contribution is the one I made in answer to Deputy Callanan. I can see and I concede that serious problems are being caused by this increase, but we had very limited options in the matter of taxation. We had a very serious situation and we had to act immediately. That is why we have acted as we have and I do not believe that Deputy Callanan, were he in my position, would have acted significantly differently.

I want to ask the Minister one question. Does he concede that he could have raised the money required by capital taxation? Is he saying that he found it easier to have indirect taxation? He has made that statement just now and I ask him to clarify what he has said. I cannot quote him verbatim. He said it was capital taxation, but then he seemed to brush that aside and said that the easiest thing was indirect taxation. Is the Minister saying he recognises the fact that he could have raised this money through capital taxation but found that not to be the way he wanted to do it and that the easiest way was by indirect taxation?

I am glad that Deputy Sherlock has asked that question. The position is, as I indicated in my Budget Statement, that the Government, as stated in their joint programme, are reviewing the position in regard to capital taxation. We have said we intend to increase substantially the yield to the Exchequer from capital taxation during our term in Government. As I said in my Budget Statement, changes in capital taxation by their nature require very detailed and complex drafting if they are not to have unintended adverse effects. They must, therefore, be drafted with care. We have only been in office for three weeks. If we were to rush in to measures of capital taxation in that short space of time we could easily find we would introduce measures which would have effects which, for lack of preparation and lack of adequate attention to detail, no one could envisage. Far from being in the interests of working people they might work to their detriment because of the way in which they had been drafted. We preferred to defer action on capital taxation until we have had a greater opportunity to consider the matter and bring forward detailed proposals. We will bring forward those proposals, as indicated in our joint programme, in due course, because we recognise that all forms of taxation should make a fair and reasonable contribution to the costs of running the State.

The point I made about indirect taxation being the one we have to turn to on this occasion arose from the fact that we had to introduce a budget quickly. The speed with which we had to act was the determining factor. In that situation we could not quickly introduce changes in capital taxation. That is not to say we do not recognise that in the relatively immediate future something should be done and we will do something, as stated in the joint programme.

The Minister for Finance slipped this one over on the House when he was speaking about the petrol increase. Deputy O'Malley showed this when he produced the Fine Gael advertisement in The Irish Times. The other point to which the Minister for Finance should reply is that a worker living 20 miles from his place of employment, a normal distance, when one takes all taxes into account — VAT, road tax — will pay somewhere in the region of £3.84p per week extra to go to his work. That is an astronomical figure for an ordinary worker to pay in one fell swoop. It does not appear that bad in terms of the petrol increase alone, but, in terms of all the taxes applied, that is the calculation the Minister for Finance or the Taoiseach must stand over. On a standard motor car of 1400 cc to 1000 cc, used by most workers, I estimate it will cost £3.84p or £ 4.40p if the horse power is a little higher. A car is not a luxury and the re-introduction of the car tax is a crippling blow when you take into account the philosophy expressed by Fine Gael prior to the election when they complained about the crippling effects on the finances of the youth of the country, especially the cost of insurance and petrol. Now we have huge increases on petrol, beer and spirits. Fine Gael said they would strictly control the price of these items. They certainly have strictly controlled them, to the point I have mentioned. Will the Taoiseach contradict the figures I have given? There is no point in giving £9.60 to the housewife next April or the following April if already £3.84p or £4.40p has already been taken from the husband long before you apply this so-called goody.

The Minister said it was essential to tax these items because of the state of the economy. It was very dishonest for the Government to say that their taxes would not affect the lower income groups, that only the higher income group would suffer. Surely people going into work and the small farmer who is bringing his milk to the creamery by car are in the lower income group? I agree with the Minister that if you want to increase taxes you must get it from those who are using what you are taxing. It is ordinary workers who use cars and who will be hit severely by increased taxation.

The nature of the budget is such that it tends to spare as much as possible the least well off people. The least well off people in the social welfare categories are on very low levels of income and are not in a position to afford a car. They may not have employment or may have retired. There is no way in which the problems facing us at present, as a result of what we have been left with, can be resolved by confining taxation to the wealthy. The burden has to be shared in some measure by all with the least burden and the greatest, and fullest relief offered to those who are poor and underprivileged in the social welfare categories or otherwise on very low incomes.

That is what lies behind this budget. There can be no question of finding the sums necessary to do what had to be done to get at least the opening current deficit for next year down by one-third. There is no chance of getting taxation under control without affecting a wide range of people, including workers. We cannot hide that fact and we do not pretend to do so. This is basically not our budget; it is the budget which was not brought in earlier this year when everything was deferred for electoral purposes. We are left to pick up the pieces and to impose the unpopular charges. We have taken that responsibility and have done so in a manner which spreads the burden as equitably as possible in the time available. It is true that if more time had been available we might have been able to do it in a more equitable way. Deputy Sherlock has a point. The Minister said we will be examining that area in accordance with our joint policy.

As a further reply to what Deputy Killilea said, while I am not accepting his figures because I have not the facility to calculate what the costs are but, undoubtedly a worker travelling 20 miles to his employment is going to suffer a significant increase in his costs as a result of this. I cannot comment on the figures but I do not dispute the fact. However, the tax reform which we will be introducing at the earliest practicable moment, which, as we stated when we presented our programme initially, will be in the next tax year, will involve relief for this category, workers with typical incomes, whose order of magnitude will be somewhat higher than the figures mentioned by Deputy Killilea, whatever accuracy or merit those figures have as a measure of the cost of getting to work. Those reliefs will be directed towards that particular group. In the nature of things it is not possible to provide those reliefs sooner than next April because of the income tax year. You cannot effect changes in the taxation system within that year and to that extent relief was deferred for that period. I accept that this is a disadvantage. However, that relief will come and will certainly exceed the extra burden imposed on the typical worker by this resolution, even the worker who in rural areas has to travel by car to work. I am not accepting Deputy Killilea's views but am not contradicting him either, as I have not had a chance of calculating. The point he makes is one which, in principle, is valid, whatever about the amount. But it will be met, and more than met, by the income tax measures we will be introducing in our next budget.

I just want to make a point, rather than to ask a question. On the tobacco question, we listened to facts and figures and here again we are listening to facts and figures. The Taoiseach is renowned for being capable of doing a simple calculation. I make the calculation and do not pretend that I can compare in any way with the statistician he is acclaimed to be. I make my claim, which could be made by any ordinary human being in this House. He does not need to be an acclaimed genius at figures.

When it comes to the point of what it costs, the Taoiseach has funked on every issue raised in this House today. He funked on the tobacco issue to Deputy Nolan earlier on and now says that he cannot calculate a little sum for me. It is a simple sum and ranges from £3.84 to £4.10. I am not a mathematician, but am going on the figures given to the Taoiseach by his own Minister for Finance. He can assume a deficit of £946 million in the budget at the end of this year, but cannot make a simple sum of what it costs a worker to travel to work and back 20 miles in one week of the year. He can assume what the deficit will be and make allegations through the propaganda machine, as has been done in the last five to eight weeks, yet he cannot make up how much it will cost a worker to travel to work and back 20 miles for five or six days a week. I cannot understand that.

I can attempt to answer the question. The Deputy has been doing some homework there, but I have not had the opportunity of making calculations. If the Deputy wants instant calculations, the result would be something like this. Twenty miles each way is 40 miles and for five days is 200 miles. Forty miles to the gallon for a typical small car makes five gallons a week. Forty-nine weeks in the year. Taking 45 gallons multiplied by the amount of the increase, the figure got will be about one-tenth of what the Deputy produces. That is as far as I can go.

Is the Taoiseach not introducing car tax?

The Deputy can put that in as well.

That would be £600 on a £6,000 car.

That will still not bring the figure up to the Deputy's figure.

The Chair thinks it is now appropriate to put the question.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 82; Níl, 78.

  • Alderman Dublin Bay-Rockall Loftus, Sean D.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Birmingham, George.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • (Dublin North-West).
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael J.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael J.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John F.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan Richie.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom.
  • (Cavan-Monaghan).
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Fleming, Brian.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McCartin, John J.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Markey, Bernard.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Madeleine.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Acheson, Carrie.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Seamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh (Wexford).
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Coughlan, Clement.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Filgate, Eddie.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin South-Central).
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Joyce, Carey.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Nolan, Tom.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Donoghue, Martin.
  • O'Hanlon Rory.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael J.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies L'Estrange and Mervyn Taylor; Níl, Deputies Moore and Briscoe
Question declared carried.

May I remind Deputies that Financial Resolutions up to and including No. 8 must be disposed of by 10.30 p.m.

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