Deputy Wilson gave notice of his intention to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of Question No. 98 on yesterday's Order Paper. Deputy Wilson has 20 minutes and the Minister has ten minutes to reply.
Adjournment Debate. - Examination Papers.
I want to thank you, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to raise this very serious question on the Adjournment. It is the question of the public examinations. Before I do so I would like to take this opportunity of congratulating the Minister for Education on his appointment to this very important portfolio, one which cannot be over-estimated. It will call on him to exert all his strength and force of character, particularly in the clime that has been created with regard to financing all areas of the public service. I wish him well in his role as Minister for Education and I promise him plenty of criticism, all of it constructive.
What has prompted me to ask for an opportunity to raise this matter in the House is that I gather there are 346,545 examination answer books lying in the offices at Athlone. From the figures I have been given it would seem that all the Intermediate Certificate papers are there. I would like to know from the Minister if that is true. From the figures I have been given about the Group Certificate it would seem that all the Group Certificate examination papers are there other than the practical subjects and the ones that have already been dealt with. I notice from the statistics that there are 20,000 biology answer books in Athlone, and this is a very important subject, as the House will readily admit. Are all the biology Leaving Certificate papers in Athlone? I would like to know that from the Minister. There are 7,000 chemistry answer books also there. Are all the chemistry Leaving Certificate answer books there? From the figures I have, the building construction answer books and the engineering workshop theory and practice answer books all seem to be there as well, and 5,500 physics answer books at Leaving Certificate level are there in Athlone also. I would like to know from the Minister if that means that all the physics answer books at Leaving Certificate level are still there unmoved. I gather that 3,000 technical drawing answer books are there.
That is not an exhaustive list, but I have mentioned those subjects because they are very important with regard to both careers and the attainment of places at third level. The House will recollect that I amended the grants scheme last year and lowered the number of subjects required for a student who wanted to get a grant in those areas, mentioning specifically the subjects that I have outlined here. I am glad to know that the examiners' conferences have all been held. At least that part of the programme of public examinations is over. If the dispute could be settled, the marking could start. But I envisage serious problems arising now with regard to the teachers who have been employed to do the marking of the papers. I would like to know from the Minister if they are on standby. Has he had any consultations with them with regard to compensation? They have just finished their year's work and the marking of papers is very difficult work indeed. It is very hard physically and mentally on the people who do the examining and to have this sword of Damocles hanging over their heads without their knowing when the papers will be available to them to mark seems to be an added hardship. Has there been any talk of compensation for them? Their families also will be involved in this.
I hope that the Minister will not have serious difficulties later on with regard to getting markers. It has been my experience that the work is so difficult that even in normal times many teachers have taken on the business of marking 600 papers — that used to be the number handed out — and have not been physically able to carry it through and have taken the papers back to the Department and said: "I am simply not able physically to finish this task". It is a demanding, difficult and important task. The teachers themselves, as far as the academic year is concerned, have no option so that if the marking runs into September there is no flexi-time with regard to holidays as far as teachers are concerned. Their families will be at school and they themselves will be back in the classrooms. Therefore, there is a difficult area to be dealt with here. This underlines and emphasises the importance of getting the procedure underway.
I agree with the thesis that the proper way to deal with the dispute is through the agreed procedures. I am in support of the Minister in that. I am asking him to exert himself to have the agreed procedures continued on—I was going to say "set in motion" but I gather that they have been set in motion some time ago. I am asking the Minister to direct his energies to having the agreed procedures working because there is no use in talking about proceeding according to the agreed procedures if nothing at all is happening.
The officials who are in dispute with the Department are paid out of the Minister's Vote, so consequently he has a responsibility for them. We had a parallel situation some time ago when the P and T strike was on and we dedicated ourselves in the Department to holding the examinations at that time and had grave difficulty in so doing. The Minister will find that in this regard he has a superb staff who when there is difficulty will be prepared to work 20 hours out of the 24 to try to solve this kind of problem for him. Therefore, I am saying to him that he should utilise his own staff in his own Department, in the office of the Minister, in this regard to try to have this problem resolved. We talk about the dedication of soldiers. I assure him that that is the kind of total and single-minded dedication that he will find there when it comes to an important matter such as the successful conclusion of the marking of the examination papers.
As the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and the Minister know, the Leaving Certificate examination is extremely important for young people who are going to use it as a basis for their career, who are going to work immediately after it. It is very important for those who want to go to the universities or to the regional technical colleges, the national institute or the teacher training colleges. It is important for those institutions as well to have these results in good time to go through the selection process.
The intermediate certificate is also a leaving off time for some people. It is important for apprentices, as is the group certificate. Consequently, the examinees are entitled to the results at a reasonable time. I know there are difficulties and I do not want to sound or be unreasonable about it. Many young people will continue on if they have the assurance they are making progress. Their progress is indicated by their success in the group or intermediate certificate. I want an assurance from the Minister that he is exerting himself and that his Department is exerting itself to have the papers marked and to have the results available in good time for students this autumn.
Mr. M. Noonan
(Limerick East): I understand that the marking conferences have already been held. At marking conferences, general guidelines are distributed in a written form to examiners. The examiners take minutes of the meeting but no transcript is ever taken of a marking conference. Examiners usually rely on their memories when it comes to the nuances of a marking scheme or alternative methods of marking questions. It has worked very effectively in the past because an examiner begins to examine the day after the marking conference. Now that this dispute has intervened, marking conferences will be five, six or maybe seven weeks in the past when it comes to an examiner marking the first paper. I should like the Minister to take this into account and to consider the reconvening of examiners' marking conferences when the dispute ends.
I should like to thank Deputy Wilson who, in his initial remarks extended congratulations to me and also promised constructive criticism, which is always to be welcomed and should be viewed in that light.
I find it difficult, however, for somebody who, until three weeks ago occupied this position to represent that in some way the occupier of the position of Minister for Education has any responsibility or negotiating power to intervene positively in a dispute of this nature. The Deputy knows that this dispute has being going on for a considerable length of time and arose during the tenure of his party in office. In this case, as in the dispute to which he referred and which took place a year or two ago, the dispute is with the Department of the Public Service. The Minister with responsibility is the Minister for the Public Service. It must be realised that intervention on the part of any other Minister, whether publicly or privately, could very well have the effect of exacerbating a very delicate, unfortunate and regrettable situation. I have endeavoured to recognise my responsibilities to the students, the public and the examiners in relation to this dispute. I have had a number of discussions and have prepared contingency plans in the event of the dispute being satisfactorily resolved at different stages during the time which is normally utilised for the correction of papers. It would be wrong and unhelpful of me, in the context of the delicate stage which this dispute has now reached, if I intervened publicly or to comment on it. I have refrained from doing so and I do not intend to be drawn through the mechanism of this Adjournment Debate into doing that at this stage.
I want to indicate to the Minister and the House that I said I was in total agreement with the agreed procedures being followed. He must not have been listening to me.
The difficulty is that the agreed procedures were perhaps not observed at the start. The item which was raised on the Adjournment is a statistical question asking for details of the numbers of answer books which are held in the Department's examination branch in Athlone and as to whether the examiners' conference had been held in each subject. In that regard, it is regrettable that this device has been used of questioning the adequacy of an answer which is entirely statistical, to endeavour to invite a member of the Government who has not got the specific responsibility to impinge on another and very delicate area, at a time when the public in certain areas, in the field of social welfare and especially the many thousands who are affected through this delay in the correcting of the answer books, stand to lose if there was to be an unfortunate or unhelpful contribution by another member of the Government.
Of some thousand examiners, 700 are at work in their own homes marking leaving certificate papers. Those papers which are being corrected at present cover the larger subjects, Irish, English, mathematics, French, geography, with the exception of biology to which the Deputy referred. For the remaining 300 examiners, the papers for physics, chemistry, commercial subjects etc., have not been distributed although the conferences have been held in each case.
Of the 1200 or so examiners for the intermediate certificate, some 505 are working. Almost all of the group certificate examiners are working. I am naturally concerned, as is the staff of the Department of Education. We are saddened and disappointed at this turn of events which has caused disruption in the normal procedure of carrying out corrections to the answer books. I am very upset, as the staff of the Department are, that a fine tradition of service and loyalty and of close mutual co-operation between individual staff members, a tradition that often goes, as the questioner said, beyond the call of duty, has been disrupted. I hope there can be an early and satisfactory resolution to the dispute, to allow the staff of the examination branch to return to their duties in Athlone and to allow the process of correction of answer books to go ahead.
Deputy Wilson asked whether I had had discussions with any of the interest groups representing the examiners and those who will be correcting the answer books. As he may have read in a statement issued by the ASTI, I had a meeting with that group late last week during which the entire situation was discussed and arrangements, which I believe were mutually acceptable to the representative teachers' body, the Department officials and myself, were agreed upon.
In relation to the point raised here by Deputy Noonan regarding the length of time which may now elapse between the conferences for examiners and the actual marking of the answer books, it may be possible — although I hope it will not be necessary — to reconvene some of the conferences. If that is the case, I assure the House that that process will be put into operation following the satisfactory conclusion of the dispute.
I find it difficult to understand how someone who was a member of a Government which did not adhere to the normal negotiating procedures in relation to particular disputes could now, entirely out of place, invite me within my new Ministry to participate in endeavouring to bring a resolution to a dispute which is clearly one involving staffs of a particular union in a number of Departments with the Minister of the Public Service. I have no intention of doing that. While I agree with the Deputy in his lavish praise of the staff in the office of the Minister for Education, it was entirely wrong to suggest in this House that the ability, expertise and hard work of that staff might be utilised to bring about a resolution to a continuing dispute which involves staff members of a public service union with the Minister for the Public Service.
My interest is in ensuring that the least possible disruption is caused to the pupils involved, to their parents and to the examiners, who are entirely blameless in this dispute and for whom considerable disruption has been caused — both in their arrangements for carrying out the marking of papers and in their holiday arrangements. I have gone out of my way to ensure that, no matter what difficulties are presented, those teachers will not in any way suffer as a result of a dispute entirely outside their control.
I am responsible also in relation to the third level institutions which will naturally have difficulties in the processing of the application forms for entry to the institutions as a result of the delay in the publication of the Leaving Certificate results. It is, however, my intention, as soon as it is possible to do so, to arrange for the distribution of the remaining answer books for marking in the normal way. The normal period will be allowed for the carrying out of that marking. If necessary the examiners' conferences will be reconvened and every possible facility given to the examiners to ensure that they are allowed the full and normal period for the carrying out of the due process. In that regard we may have to have special arrangements with the third level institutions.
I appeal to all interests concerned to appreciate the difficulties under which a large number of the general public are being placed because of this dispute, especially the difficulties created for young people at an important turn in their lives. I hope the Minister for the Public Service, in his undoubted unstinting efforts, will bring about a successful resolution of this dispute in the near future.
I am entitled to ask a question. Is the Minister telling the House that he is refusing to accept responsibility for the pay and conditions of work of people who are employed in his Department?
I am telling the House that if the questioner does not know the duties of the Minister for Education after his four years in office there, it is no wonder he is sitting on the Opposition side of the House.
That is not an answer.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 23 July 1981.