asked the Taoiseach in view of the outcome of the ICTU Delegate Conference on Thursday, 29 October and the statement from the FUE the previous week, the action the Government now proposes to take on pay.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Government's Pay Proposals.
2.
I would refer the Deputy to the statement which I issued today, copies of which are available in the Dáil Library.
In view of the unprecedented response by the Taoiseach to a question of such urgent and national importance, can he tell the House first of all what the Government's attitude is to national understandings? Were any efforts made by this Government to explore the possibility of securing a national understanding; were talks held with both sides of industry and, if so, what was the outcome of those talks? If they were not held why were they not held?
As the Deputy is aware from public announcements and the copies of the statement I have referred to which were given to him and the Leader of the Opposition a few minutes ago, the position is that I have invited the Chairman of the Employer-Labour Conference to discuss the possibility of an initiative to reopen discussions with me. He has accepted that invitation. I will add nothing to that at this stage and I think that the Deputy would not wish me to do so in the circumstances.
As I have not had an opportunity of seeing the copy of the Taoiseach's reply, may I ask if it is a very lengthy reply and could the House be informed of its contents? If it is a very lengthy reply——
No, it is only two pages.
Is this procedure by the Taoiseach in accordance with the rules of order? The oral question was addressed to the Taoiseach by Deputy Gene Fitzgerald. Apparently the Taoiseach now is seeking to avoid answering the question by referring us all to a statement which none of us saw before we came into this House and of which I think only two members of the Opposition have copies. Were you, A Cheann Comhairle, aware that this procedure was to be followed and, if so, is it in order?
I have replied to the question and as well as that I have indicated as a substantial point in the statement that I have invited the Chairman of the Employer-Labour Conference to discuss the possibility of an initiative to reopen discussions. I have added to that the fact that he has accepted the invitation which, of course, is not in the statement itself.
It is very difficult to find out what is going on. Will the Taoiseach say when this statement, of which I have just been handed a copy here a moment ago — which is headed "Government Statement", nothing more than that — has been laid on the table of the House? At what time today was it laid on the table of the House? What device is this that he is resorting to in order to avoid answering oral questions in this House?
I have said in my reply that copies are available in the Oireachtas Library.
Since when?
I could not tell the Deputy the exact time. I do not undertake that task myself and I could not say exactly when, but as the statement was prepared in the course of the Government meeting this morning and was issued just in advance of the RTE 1.30 news, it must have been placed in the Library sometime in the last hour or so, I would think in the nature of things.
Is the Taoiseach now telling us that it was issued to RTE before being placed in the Library of the House?
The Government have made an announcement on this subject through the normal channels of the GIS. In the circumstances I thought it might facilitate Deputies who might not have heard the broadcast, if it were placed in the Library of the House. I thought that facilitation would have been appreciated rather than being a cause for complaint.
It is not a question of appreciating anything. The situation here is that, apparently, the Taoiseach has cobbled together some sort of a statement at the very last moment, has issued it to the news media before putting it on the table of the House and now, in response to an oral question by a Deputy of the House, refers that Deputy to this statement. I believe, Ceann Comhairle, you should take very serious note of this behaviour on the part of the Taoiseach. It is an abuse of parliamentary questions.
The Chair has no control over the Taoiseach's replies.
During these exchanges I have had an opportunity of hastily reading the Government statement. Arising out of that, which I take it is the Taoiseach's reply to the question, the concluding sentence is that the Taoiseach has invited the Chairman of the Employer-Labour Conference to discuss the possibility of an initiative to reopen discussions. Arising out of that suggestion, while I am happy, like the Taoiseach, to pay tribute to the skills of the Chairman of the Employer-Labour Conference, I would have thought something more substantial would be needed to reopen any worth-while discussions. Has the Taoiseach given any directions or has he made any additional information or guidance to the Chairman of the Employer-Labour Conference which might enable him to have some substantive basis for approaching the parties?
I regret that the Deputy should suggest that the involvement of the Chairman of the Employer-Labour Conference is not helpful or adequate. That kind of comment is very unhelpful.
The Deputy did not say that.
The Deputy can speak for himself and can do so from the back benches as he once did from the front benches before he was expelled from them. With regard to the second part of the supplementary question, as I have explained to the House I will be meeting him at 5.15 and discussing the issues involved.
As the Taoiseach is, apparently, seeking refuge in the statement by way of avoiding answering the second question on the Order Paper, could I ask you to insist that the Taoiseach reads out his statement for the benefit of the House?
The Chair has no say in the way a Minister or a Taoiseach answers questions.
I suggest to the Taoiseach that he has no option, in deference to the rules of procedure in this House, but to read the statement. Deputy Fitzgerald and I have copies of it but no other Deputy has a copy. Is the Taoiseach afraid to read out the statement?
There is no procedure under which statements issued by the GIS to the press are read out in this House. I do not propose to initiate that procedure which would be a most extraordinary one.
Is the Taoiseach aware that he has referred the House to this statement by way of answer to question No. 2 on the Order Paper? Is the Taoiseach not prepared to read out his own statement to the House?
I am not prepared to initiate a precedent by reading out in the House statements issued by the Government to the press. My predecessor did not do so when he was in office and I am not going to start it now.
Is the Taoiseach aware that he has created a precedent by referring the House to a particular statement by way of answer to a Dáil question? In those circumstances will he not now read out his own statement? Is he afraid to do so?
After meetings of European Councils it was the practice of Taoiseachs, including Deputy Haughey, to refer Deputies to the communique in the Library of the House. The whole communique is not read out. On several occasions statements were not in the Library when they were supposed to be.
While I am not happy about it, I recognise that the Chair has no control over the form in which Ministers reply to questions. I accept that. I hope I may be allowed a little latitude before I frame my supplementary question. I cannot resist noting that the Taoiseach appears to be attempting to reply to questions by making snide remarks. I do not think that is a very satisfactory mode of reply. I also wish to point out——
The Deputy must ask a question.
——since this is a matter of substantial public concern, I have read the statement — incidentally I cannot resist adding that the reply is much shorter——
The Deputy must ask a question.
The Government statement, on a quick reading, does not appear to contain any new information. Could the Taoiseach say why either of the parties who are involved in the breakdown of the talks should be expected to resume substantive discussions since there is not the slightest indication given of any advance? Incidentally, the leaks to the papers this morning implied some advance rather than retreat on the part of the Government and may I ask the nature of such advance?
The Deputy's questions are most unhelpful to resolving the problem.
I am entitled to support the protests of my party leader because it has reached the stage that when a Deputy submits a question through normal channels he is refused an answer and a copy of a statement is put in the Library, probably at the very same time as the question is being answered in the House. This matter should be raised at the Committee on Procedures and Privileges. Arising from the statement, what was the Government's attitude to a national understanding and were any efforts or attempts made to achieve one? I asked if any consultations had been held but I did not get a reply. In the communique that was issued the Taoiseach referred to the Committee on Costs and Competitiveness. Would the Taoiseach agree that the setting up of that committee, the reporting of that committee and the subsequent revised reporting of that committee hindered rather than helped any prospect there was of a national wage agreement or national understanding this year? Furthermore, regarding this meeting which the Taoiseach obviously arranged at very short notice, as a result of the question I put down, is it his intention to meet that excellent person whom I highly commend, the Chairman of the Employer-Labour Conference, at 5.15 this evening? In view of the way he has handled this, will he subsequently make a statement to the House?
I will not be drawn any further on a matter which is of such grave importance. The Deputies opposite should act more responsibly than in seeking to draw matters of this kind out and to make imputations or draw implications from what is happening which could be inimicable to the objective which we all share, the achievement of a central pay agreement with provisions which will make a substantial contribution to resolving the unemployment problem. We all share that wish and I do not think it is helpful for Deputies on the other side of the House to pour cold water on it or otherwise undermine initiatives being taken. Any further statements in this vein from the other side of the House would not be helpful. We should let the matter proceed.
In all your time in the House, Ceann Comhairle, you have never seen an approach like this to a question by a Taoiseach. Surely it is unprecedented? In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Taoiseach's reply, would he indicate to the House what options now exist in achieving a national understanding or a national agreement? Have discussions been held with anybody? He must realise he has a responsibility to govern and that the Opposition are entitled to ask him relevant questions on matters of national importance.
We come in here to hear the answers to questions. I want an explanation on a point of order. If we do not come into the House, we get the answer in the Official Report. Today, in answer to a question, we were told to go to the Library, but a few privileged people here had got the answer. As one of the elderly Deputies, I am insulted at being denied the required answer to the question.
The Chair has no function in this matter. It is not responsible for replies, or lack of replies, given by a Minister or the Taoiseach.
It is not the practice of this House, whatever about the Houses of Congress, to read into the debate statements issued to the press or other documents of that nature.
It is the practice to answer questions, though.
It was the Opposition Party's practice not to.
In view of the unsatisfactory handling by the Taoiseach of this entire situation, I ask the Chair's permission to raise the subject on the Adjournment.
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy later.