Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Dec 1981

Vol. 331 No. 5

Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Mr. O'Keeffe)

I move:

(1) That Dáil Éireann concurs with Seanad Éireann in its Resolution communicated to Dáil Éireann on 5th November, 1981, that it is expedient that a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas (which shall be called the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities) be established consisting of—

18 members of Dáil Éireann and 8 members of Seanad Éireann (none of whom shall be a representative in the Assembly of the European Communities)

(a) to examine

(i) such programmes and guidelines prepared by the Commission of the European Communities as a basis for possible legislative action and such drafts of regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions of the Council of Ministers proposed by the Commission,

(ii) such acts of the institutions of those Communities,

(iii) such regulations under the European Communities Act, 1972 (No. 27 of 1972), and

(iv) such other instruments made under statute and necessitated by the obligations of membership of those Communities

as the Committee may select and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas; and

(b) to examine the question of dual membership of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann and the European Assembly and to consider the relations between the Irish representatives in the European Assembly and Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas;

(2) That provision be made for the appointment of substitutes to act for members of the Joint Committee who are unable to attend particular meetings and that members of either House, not being members of the Joint Committee, be allowed to attend meetings and to take part in the proceedings without having a right to vote;

(3) That representatives in the Assembly of the European Communities, who are also members of either House, be notified of meetings and be allowed to attend and take part in proceedings without having a right to vote;

(4) That the Joint Committee, previous to the commencement of business, shall elect one of its members to be Chairman who shall have only one vote;

(5) That all questions in the Joint Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes the question shall be decided in the negative;

(6) That every report which the Joint committee proposes to make shall, on adoption by the Joint Committee, be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas forthwith, whereupon the Joint Committee shall be empowered to print and publish such report together with such related documents as it thinks fit; and

(7) That five members of the Joint Committee shall form a quorum of whom at least one shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and at least one shall be a member of Seanad Éireann."

The Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation was first established in 1973. It is dissolved when the Dáil and Seanad are dissolved, and must be re-constituted by orders passed by each House of the Oireachtas after a general election. An expediency motion to this effect has already been passed in the Seanad, and Dáil Éireann is to-day called upon to do likewise, in order that the new committee may be set up and commence work as soon as possible.

It was decided when we joined the European Communities to set up a committee to examine Community legislation, and to supervise its implementation in Ireland. It is vital that such a committee should exist in order to monitor this body of external law which is now a part of our national system.

The terms of reference of the joint committee, as formulated in 1977, give the committee authority to examine Community legislation at three stages in the process of its adoption. It may examine legislation at the draft stage, it may examine Community Acts, and, finally, it may examine ministerial regulations made under the European Communities Act, 1972, and instruments made under other statutes in order to implement our Community obligations.

The new joint committee will consist of 18 Members of Dáil Éireann, and eight Members of the Seanad, thus totalling 26, which is the same number as its predecessor. I should like to pay tribute to the work of previous joint committees, all of which have done vast amounts of work with very little public recognition. Much of the Community legislation is of a highly complex and technical nature, which makes the task even more demanding. The committee select for examination those draft Acts which they consider of particular importance to Ireland and they examine all statutory instruments made to implement Community laws. Reports to the Houses of the Oireachtas are then prepared. During the last session 94 reports were prepared by the joint committee, nine of which were considered by the Seanad. Of these nine, two were also considered by the Dáil.

When constituting the joint committee in 1977 the Government took into account the recommendations which the first committee made in their 55th report, published in March 1977. Among the recommendations taken on board were: provision for the appointment of substitutes to act for members who are unable to attend particular meetings, and provision that Members of either House of the Oireachtas though not members of the committee be allowed to attend their meetings and take part in proceedings without having a right to vote. The proposed terms of reference for the forthcoming joint committee remain largely the same as in 1977, apart from two recommended changes which I will briefly mention.

In a report of March 1980 the committee recommended certain amendments to its orders of reference taking cognizance of the fact that the European Assembly is now a directly elected body. The first of these has been incorporated in the motion before the House, that is, that the phrase which provided that "delegates to the Assembly of the European Communities be notified of meetings and be allowed to attend and take part in the proceedings without having a right to vote", be amended to read that "representatives in the European Assembly, who are also members of either House of the Oireachtas" have the privilege set out above. The effect of this change is merely to formalise an existing state of affairs, namely, that members of European Parliament are no longer appointed by the Dáil, apart from those filling casual vacancies, but are elected by direct universal suffrage.

The second recommendation concerns the question of membership of the joint committee by MEP's. Before the 1979 European elections Members of the Oireachtas nominated as members of the European Parliament were ex-officio members of the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation. This arrangement was not in practice a success and the terms of reference of the committee appointed in 1977 expressly stated that members of the European Parliament would be precluded from membership of the joint committee. They would, however, be notified of meetings and be allowed to attend and take part in the proceedings without having a right to vote. The committee also recommended that the phrase which precludes members of the European Parliament from membership of the committee be deleted. This suggestion has not been adopted. Rather, the whole question of the relationship between MEPs and the Dáil and Seanad will be examined by the joint committee. Provision has been made for this by an addition to the terms of reference of the committee which gives them a mandate “to examine the question of dual membership of the Dáil or Seanad and the European Assembly, and to consider the relations between the Irish Representatives in the European Assembly and the Dáil and Seanad...”. The Government consider that the joint committee, which has already touched on aspects of this question of the dual mandate and the overall relationships between the Oireachtas and the European Assembly, is the proper forum for the examination of these questions. The House will recall having debated and agreed on this point on 28 October last.

Mr. Lenihan

The motion primarily reconstitutes the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities which has been in existence since our accession to the EEC, and we support that move. The joint committee have done excellent work and operated in a flexible manner since their formation in the sense that they have allowed non-committee members who are Members of the Oireachtas to attend and contribute without a right to vote. A similar situation has existed with regard to members of the European Parliament. I regard the attendance of members of the European Parliament as an important factor because they can bring to bear at meetings up-to-date information on matters that have come before the Parliament. They can give the up-to-date and current advice on deliberations of the joint committee in relation to regulations and Community legislation. I take it that the precedent that was established in 1973 whereby the chairman of the joint committee was selected from the Opposition will continue. That situation obtained from 1973 to 1977 and from 1977 to 1981 when we had different Governments. The new addition to the mandate referred to by the Minister of State concerns paragraph (1) (b) of the motion, which states:

(b) to examine the question of dual membership of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann and the European Assembly and to consider the relation between the Irish representatives in the European Assembly and Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas;

During a debate on a motion put down by us concerning the dual mandate the Minister said rightly on 28 October that this whole aspect of the dual mandate was raised by me. We had a constructive debate on that occasion and the Government intimated that the whole question would be examined in detail and that there was merit in the point of view put forward by us on that occasion. They intimated that the whole question of dual membership of the European and national assemblies was an appropriate question to be examined by the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation of the European Communities. I am very pleased that the two aspects of dual membership are included in the mandate to the committee. First there is the question of dual membership itself. Having argued the pros and cons of that matter I am strongly of the opinion that the dual mandate has resulted in a situation in which, by reason of the complexity of the work involved in the European Assembly, it can no longer continue as a suitable way in which Irish interests can be represented within the European Assembly by Deputies who at the same time are working members of the Houses of the Oireachtas. I take it that that will be the nub of the examination by the committee of the question as to whether that proposition of mine is valid.

The second part of the mandate is to consider the relations that are to exist in the future between representatives of the European Parliament and their position vis-á-vis the Oireachtas. The two are related but slightly different. If my proposition in regard to the dual mandate having ended its usefulness and its being a bad situation is accepted, I would urge that as a caveat on that proposition there must be a connection between membership of the European Assembly and membership of the Oireachtas. It would be wrong and a very serious situation if one adopted the proposition that dual membership was no longer sustainable and provided for a situation whereby a member, on election to the European Parliament, would cease to be a Member of the Oireachtas without there being some provision for maintaining the connection between the two bodies. That is the important aspect in the second leg of the mandate. I am confident that the proposition in regard to the abolition of dual membership will be accepted, and following that there can be constructive examination as to what is put in its place in order to maintain the connection between the European Assembly and the national Parliament. It is essential that this be done. It would be very unwise to do otherwise from the national point of view because Ireland would then be electing members to the European Parliament who would have no connection with or no say in the working of this Parliament and its committees. If we break the system of dual membership it is vital that we replace it with some more refined type of connection.

There are various other options open to us in this respect. For instance, the right of audience for members of the European Parliament should be considered here in the context of debates in both Houses concerning aspects of the Communities, whether these debates be at six-monthly intervals or otherwise. However, I understand that there are constitutional and legal difficulties in that regard but at least the prospect should be examined. I am not suggesting that these people would have the right to vote here but they should have the right to put forward their points of view in both Houses of the Oireachtas during debates concerning the Communities. In that situation they should be automatically ex offico members of the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation of the European Communities because it would be very important that that be the position. It is at that committee level that they could bring their particular expertise to bear especially having regard to the fact that the committee is largely an expertise-type exercise. Most of the real work of the European Parliament also is committee-type work. I hope, therefore, that in reconstituting this committee it will be found possible to include as fully ex officio members those people who are members of the European Parliament. To sum up, therefore, I am very much against the dual mandate but equally I urge the maintenance of a connection in some form between the members of the European Assembly and this Parliament.

There is one other matter, though this is one for the political parties. So far as we are concerned we devised our own structure to ensure continuing membership of the party so far as European Deputies are concerned. The dual mandate does not obtain so far as our party members in the European Parliament are concerned but they are members of our parliamentary party is composed of three tiers, the Dáil tier, the Seanad tier and the European Parliament tier. In this way we help to maintain the important and vital connection of which I have been speaking. I am sure the other parties will do likewise. I welcome the motion on behalf of this party and would like to hear from the Minister that the precedent of having a main opposition member as chairman of the committee will continue and that the excellent work in which the committee have been engaged since their setting up will continue in the Dáil session ahead.

Mr. Callanan

The Minister has told us that it was decided when we joined the EEC to set up a committee to examine Community legislation and to supervise its implementation in Ireland. I understand that this committee we are talking of is one set up for the purpose of interpreting European legislation and ensuring that it is implemented here in accordance with EEC directives. Having regard to the amount of important legislation that passes through the European Parliament, this must be one of our important committees. A point that I have made many times before is that I would much prefer us to have a committee who would examine legislation before it was passed in the European Parliament rather than merely to examine it afterwards and to interpret how it should be implemented here. There is a certain irrelevancy. We get a directive from Europe and we have to implement it and the committee have to be quite expert in interpreting directives. On the domestic front we have examples of differences of opinion where the implementation of legislation is concerned. Take, for example county councils who adopt a county plan. When it comes to implementing that plan the question of interpretation arises and nine times out of ten there will be disagreement. The same situation can arise on the interpretation of directives and legislation passed in Europe. My worry is that we might be too strict in our interpretation.

Deputy Lenihan said the committees in the past did great work and I agree with him but I wonder if we are too good Europeans when it comes to interpretation. I agree with Deputy Lenihan that MEPs should be automatically members of this committee. We are against dual membership but I think all of us would be in favour of MEPs being on this committee because they would know more about the legislation passed in Europe. I referred to the difficulty of implementation and interpretation where county councils are concerned. Differences of opinion between officials and county councillors can arise as to what constitutes an amenity. In the case of the European Parliament there could be a totally different interpretation as between those enacting the legislation and those who are called upon to implement it.

This is a very important committee. We should have an opportunity to discuss proposed legislation in the European parliament before it is enacted and there should be flexibility in interpretation of both legislation and directives.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Mr. O'Keeffe)

First, I should like to put on record my appreciation of the constructive approach adopted by the Opposition on the establishment of this joint committee. Its two predecessors did excellent work and it is certainly in the interests of the country that this committee should get under way as quickly as possible to continue the excellent work done by its predecessors.

Deputy Lenihan raised a point about the chairmanship of the committee. I am not in a position to give a final answer on this. He referred to the precedent established and I will recommend to the Government that that precedent should continue. He raised the question of the dual mandate. We debated that at the end of October and I agree with him it would be very unwise to abolish dual membership and put nothing in its place. The mandate still exists in eight of the ten countries in the Community though it is being phased out gradually. The possibility — I would say the probability — is that it will be phased out here in the future. There will always have to be some linkage because MEPs who are so involved in the running of European affairs have a great deal to offer from the point of view of holding a brief here.

The best option to ensure that the greatest benefit accrues to the country must be considered by the committee and this is a question that must be considered on an all-party basis. There are a number of options. There is the possibility of the right of audience here and in the Seanad and whether that should be confined or general. Constitutional problems may arise and this is an area that will need very careful examination. Another option is the possibility of ex officio membership of the joint committee. There is too a possibility of a consultative committee as between the joint committee and MEPs. There may be still others and it will be a very important part of the work of the new committee to examine this very serious question.

I agree with Deputy Callanan that this is a most important committee. It will, of course, have the power to examine draft legislation. It is a very important part of the work of the committee and I want to put on record now a tribute to the staff of the two preceding committees. I was a member of the last committee and the volume of paper they had to sift through to ensure the committee got all the relevant documentation was simply enormous. I pay tribute to them for their excellent work.

Question put and agreed to.