Vol. 331 No. 6
I move:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £4,000,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1981, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.
This Supplementary Estimate is necessary partly to meet increases in the cost of some of the existing services rendered by the Office of Public Works and partly to enable money to be provided under a new subhead for a service not provided for in the original Estimate.
The gross additional amount required, £6,253,000, is offset by estimated savings on other subheads of the Vote, leaving a net requirement of £4,000,000.
I give hereunder, for the information of Deputies, details of the subheads for which the additional sums are required.
An additional amount of £775,000 is required for subhead A1 to meet the cost of salaries, wages and allowances of the staff of the office, including pay increases granted during the year and not provided for in the original Estimate. Sums totalling £95,000 are required to meet the cost of essential items of office equipment and the increased cost of telephone services.
Expenditure under subhead E covers a large number of building and construction works on hands and at all stages of progress. The additional money is needed to ensure that the ongoing building programme, which contributes significantly towards maintaining employment levels in the building industry, is not retarded.
Subheads F1, F2, F3 and F4 relate to the maintenance, furnishing, leasing, heating and lighting of State-owned and rented property and the additional sums now sought are needed to enable the Office of Public Works to meet increased costs, wages and demands and to discharge its obligations in these matters.
A new subhead, F6, is being introduced and the ambit of the Vote extended to cover the cost of works to the King's Inns building, which is the headquarters of the Honourable Society of the King's Inns and is under the same roof as the State-owned Registry of Deeds. The entire structure is of major architectural importance and is scheduled for preservation under the Dublin City Development Plan. It is, however, in a poor state of repair and, as the Commissioners of Public Works are carrying out major repairs to the Registry of Deeds, the Government have decided that they should also carry out essential repairs to the King's Inns building, the major part of the expenditure to be met from the Funds of Suitors subject to the necessary legislation being passed by the Dáil.
£1.5 million is needed to meet commitments incurred under subhead G.2, Drainage Construction. This is due entirely to the inadequate provision made for this service in the current year by the previous Administration. The amount sought for drainage construction by the Office of Public Works this time last year was £9.4 million. This amount was needed to carry on the three major schemes which then were, and still are, at the construction stage. It included a small amount for a start to be made on the Boyle and the Bonet schemes in the Sligo/Leitrim area. The amount sought was reduced to £7.5 million, a cut of £1.9 million. This not only precluded a start being made on the two new schemes but it also meant that progress on the three major schemes was less than the full potential.
An additional amount of £100,000 is sought for subhead G3 due to extra maintenance works found necessary on the Cashen Estuary in the Feale catchment.
A sum of £45,000 extra is required in respect of subhead I to cover the cost of coast protection works at Enniscrone, Youghal and Rosslare.
An additional sum of £300,000 is sought for subhead J1. The extra amount is required to cover the cost of some excavations which arose during the year and were not provided for in the original estimate and also to cover the cost of wage increases and workmen's compensation.
We have hardly an hour to deal with the Supplementary Estimate for the Office of Public Works and many speakers are anxious to contribute to the debate. A Supplementary Estimate of £4 million is completely inadequate for the requirements of that big Department.
With regard to arterial drainage, the Office of Public Works are at present dredging the rivers Boyne, Maigue and Corrib-Mask-Robe. The Corrib-Mask-Robe is 50 per cent funded by the EEC. Fianna Fáil, when in power, made arrangements for the preliminary work on the drainage of the Boyle and the Bonet to be started at the end of this year. This would involve dredging through the counties of Roscommon, Leitrim and Sligo. The Boyle and the Bonet work is also 50 per cent EEC funded. No money has been earmarked in the Supplementary Estimate for work to be started this year on those two rivers. I am very disappointed and am sure that the people living in those counties, who are anxious to have this work started, will also be disappointed.
For the survey of the River Shannon, we were offered a 50 per cent grant. The Shannon is a very important river, flowing through Counties Cavan, Leitrim, Sligo, Mayo, Roscommon, Galway, Westmeath, Offaly and Tipperary. All those counties would benefit from a dredging operation on the River Shannon. As we were offered £400,000 by the EEC for this survey, the Office of Public Works should have provided, in this Supplementary Estimate, money to start the survey. In case the Minister might say that this work should have been provided for by the previous Government, when the Estimates were being prepared early this year we had not been notified that that grant was available. It is a disgrace that that survey has not been started and also the work on the Boyle and the Bonet. The people in Brussels will be asking why, when they have allocated grants of 50 per cent for these three important rivers, these allocations have not been availed of. They may be reluctant in the future to allocate grants for arterial drainage.
Two years ago Fianna Fáil initiated consultations with the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Finance, the ESB, An Foras Talúntais and other interested bodies regarding a survey of the Shannon. Everything was on stream for the present Minister of State to start the survey at the end of this year and I am very disappointed that it has not started. Fianna Fáil had done the preliminary work for a cost-analysis on the Dunkellin river which was scheduled to start and if the Minister of State looks at the records in his Department, he will find that an order was made to start a cost-analysis benefit on the Dunkellin river in October of this year. No money is provided in the Supplementary Estimate for this work.
I come now to the River Lee in Tralee, County Kerry, which is my own county. A survey was started on this river early this year but nothing has been done for the past six months. The Minister of State, when replying, might give me the up-to-date position regarding the River Lee which flows from Castleisland into Tralee. Many acres of land are being flooded in this area. It is important for the people in the catchment area of Ballymacelligott and Tralee to have the river dredged. As the survey has been done and money spent on it, it is time that the design was put on display, with a view to having dredging started next year.
As regards the drainage and dredging of rivers, 15 per cent of the allocation of money for arterial drainage should go to the dredging of small rivers. When the Minister of State is replying he will say that this is not included in the present arterial drainage legislation, but many areas suffer very much from flooding of small rivers. In addition to the present legislation, there should be a supplement allowing small rivers to be dredged, thus ensuring that emergency jobs could be done on the small rivers which are causing extensive flooding in many counties.
Regarding decentralisation, when Fianna Fáil were in power, teams were appointed to design the Government offices in 12 different centres for our decentralisation programme. In the Estimates prepared earlier this year, £1.6 million was allocated for this work, and £½ million for the purchase of sites for the decentralisation buildings. I notice that there is no provision to carry out that decentralisation. Indeed there was a thorough discussion on that in the House last night. As far as I can see the Government are not going to carry that out as quickly as the previous Government were. It is important as many of our civil servants working in Dublin will get the opportunity to work in their own counties. It would be a boost to the towns where the buildings needed would be erected. It would also give a great boost to the building industry which is very depressed at the moment because, with the transfer of civil servants to a town, there would eventually be a need for housing for them. Decentralisation would generate a lot of building in addition to the necessary office blocks.
Under the decentralisation programme the Office of Public Works were preparing plans for a Government office building in Tralee. A site had been purchased in the town and indeed the building had been designed to house the different civil service Departments in the town. At the moment offices of the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Fisheries and Forestry and of the Revenue Commissioners are fragmented in different parts of the town. As a matter of fact, the agricultural office is one mile outside Tralee town and it is very difficult for many farmers, who travel by bus into Tralee, to get out to this office. The site for the new office was in a central place in Tralee which would have enabled many of our citizens in Tralee and in Kerry to get at our civil service offices much more easily. I wonder why there is no allocation of money to build this office in Tralee. When will the Government ask for tenders for this building and have it erected in Tralee?
The Office of Public Works are responsible for building and maintaining Garda barracks all over the country. Some of them are in very poor condition. When Fianna Fáil were in power they had extensive plans to improve, modernise and build many new Garda barracks. I would like to know what the up-to-date position is in regard to new Garda barracks for Tramore and Carrick-on-Shannon. What is the up-to-date position in regard to Monaghan, Oughterard, Tipperary town and Wicklow town? They were provided for in our plans and I do not see them mentioned in the Supplementary Estimate here. Has the money been provided by the Department of Justice to the Office of Public works to have those buildings erected?
We also had plans for a training centre at Templemore for the training of officers above the rank of inspector in the Garda Síochána. I would like to know what is the position in regard to that as well.
Coast protection has been very much neglected. Only £45,000 has been provided. I would like to draw attention to the very important area of the Maharees in Castlegregory, County Kerry. There were plans to start coast protection in this area but there is nothing in the Supplementary Estimate for this. The same position obtains in regard to Ballyvoile, County Waterford. Perhaps the Government would interest themselves in those areas as they were the two most pressing areas when Fianna Fáil left office and they were the next to be tackled. Also, when Fianna Fáil were in power we made a request to Brussels, which was taken up by our European parliamentarians, for a grant for coast protection work. I would like the Minister of State to pursue that further and to let me know if they received any reply from Brussels and if any grant will be forthcoming.
We are very lucky here to have such tremendous national parks. We have one in Connemara at Letterfrack, Glenveagh in Donegal and in the Burren in County Clare. We did a lot of work to develop our national parks. I hope the Minister of State will carry on that programme of development, especially in the Burren where we were purchasing a lot of land for the national park there. When Fianna Fáil left power we had bought about 100,000 acres. We were on the point of developing Glenveagh in Donegal. The Minister of State answered the question about that quite recently and, as far as I can see, the Office of Public Works are carrying out work in Glenveagh. I hope the Minister will ensure that our national parks are properly developed because they are great recreational centres for our own people and for visitors. On that point I notice that in Canada and in America the number of visitors visiting their national parks is greater than the number of people visiting our national parks here. In the next five years there will be great emphasis on our national parks and our people will be demanding more development of our national parks so that they can visit them. In the next couple of years many more people will visit our parks and there will be more demand for them.
I would like to know also the position in regard to the navigation of the Shannon, the new harbour at Dromad and the dry docks at Rooskey and the additional facilities that were to be provided at Drumsna and Hodson Bay and at Shannon Bridge. I would like to know also the up-to-date position on the development of Dromaneer harbour in Tipperary which was taken over some time recently from Tipperary County Council by the Office of Public Works with a view to having that harbour repaired and improved. I do not see any provision for it in this Supplementary Estimate.
We have had a discussion already about the security system being installed in Leinster House. I notice that the contract was placed on 9 August and that the date of finish was supposed to be 9 October. It is now 3 December, but the job has not been completed. There is great dissatisfaction with the performance of the English company who took over the contract. The plans went out of the country, if we consider Belfast as being out of the country, and I hope the Minister will be able to explain why the job has not been completed.
I submit that £4 million is grossly inadequate as a supplementary sum for this important Department. Three rivers — the Boyne, the Bonet and the Shannon — are subject to 50 per cent subvention from EEC funds and I am dissatisfied that more money has not been provided for the completion of the drainage of these rivers.
Last year we had a Supplementary Estimate for the OPW of £6½ million. This year it has been cut to £4 million, a completely inadequate sum for the work that has to be done. The Minister of State is lucky because he has such an excellent staff. There has been criticism of them but, knowing them, I completely disagree with it. The Minister has an excellent staff and I suggest that if he provides them with enough money to do the job they will do it.
I am calling on Deputy Donnellan. There are 25 minutes left.
I wonder if the Deputy would give me ten minutes?
Indeed I will. First of all, I wonder at Deputy McEllistrim's criticism of the amount of the Supplementary Estimate. Surely it is his own fault if there is need for a Supplementary Estimate at all. Was it not his job to see that at the end of the year the Estimate he had presented at the beginning would have sufficed? I should like to mention first of all the proposed repairs to this House. You would want to be a very patient man to understand why the job has taken so long. That is all I will say about it. I should think I speak on behalf of every Member of the House and everybody who works in it when I say I do not know how they cannot control the heating system.
Hear, hear.
I am complaining about this. I work on the third floor where one day the left hand side is heated, the next day the right hand side is heated and some days the temperature on both sides is tropical. One cannot work in that sort of heat. Perhaps I am wasting my time talking about it, but the Minister is listening to me and so are his officials and I hope they will go and do something about it: they have heard my criticism and I am sure it is not the first time they have heard criticism about this. I hope they will take note of it and do something about the heating system and the massive waste of energy particularly on the third floor where the heat is almost unbearable.
I have heard Deputy McEllistrim speak about decentralisation of Government offices. I would draw his attention to Tralee and ask him why did he not decentralise ACOT and put them in Tralee instead of housing them in an office block in Dublin? While he was Minister of State he would have done that if he had had a genuine interest in decentralisation.
This Supplementary Estimate covers a wide range, but my main concern is with arterial drainage, apart from the points I have made. I must give the benefit of the doubt to the present occupant, Deputy Bermingham, but I cannot extend that to his predecessor or the previous Government, and I hope Deputy McEllistrim does not take these remarks as personal. One cannot prejudge this Government, but if they do not show an improvement in the commitment towards arterial drainage I will say the same thing of them as I have said about their predecessors.
One of the most important jobs that could be done for the people of rural Ireland is to get the surplus water away from the land, but successive Governments have failed to do that. The original Estimate for the OPW was £67.971 million which has now been added to by £4 million, a total of £72 million, but the amount spent on arterial drainage was £9 million, £7.5 million from the original Estimate and £1.5 million from this Supplementary Estimate. I said earlier this year, and if I did not say it earlier this year I said it last year, that the Office of Public Works or some other body should deal totally with arterial drainage. We should create a Department to deal with it and be totally responsible for it. It should get a decent allocation of money annually.
There is talk about £400,000 being given to us by the EEC to carry out a survey or a cost-benefit analysis on the river Shannon. About a year or a year-and-a-half ago Deputy Reynolds thought the time was right to start this work. The money was granted. I hope the Minister of State will tell us what happened to it. Was it a sum of money picked out of the sky to impress people living on the banks of the Shannon and in the midlands and to give the impression that something would be done about that waterway?
A great deal of money is spent by the Office of Public Works along the banks of the Shannon for the benefit of tourists, fishermen and people like that. It is money down the drain. Have the Government any intention of spending money on the drainage of the Shannon? The Minister or the Government should say whether or not they intend to do this work. We do not want any more of the claptrap we have been hearing over the years. Money is spent to accommodate foreign tourists. I know that is important from the point of view of the economy. The previous Government had no plans to drain the Shannon. I do not know whether this Government have, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt. They have been in office for five months only. I will give them more time to see what they will do about it.
I should like to get back to a few hardy annuals. Last week two other Deputies from the west and I raised the question of the drainage of the Dunkellin in County Galway. Has there been a cost-benefit analysis of what has happened in relation to the Dunkellin? Promises were made that something would be done. As far back as 1971 the late Deputy Lemass was foolish enough to write a letter saying he hoped work would start in 1972.
The different factions in Fianna Fáil were in evidence in Galway during the election campaign. Deputy McEllistrim, Deputy Killilea and Councillor Fahey made a special trip along the banks of the Dunkellin prior to the election. I do not think they invited Deputy Callanan.
I was there.
Other interested parties were not on that walk with the dignified Kerryman who was there to drain the Dunkellin. Promises were made at that time and published locally to the effect that the money would be made available and that a survey had started. As far as I am aware, nothing has happened since. We were told it was under way and I suppose in December 1991, we will be in the same position as we are in December 1981.
The Minister of State may be able to tell me whether the promises made by Deputy Killilea, Deputy McEllistrim and Councillor Fahey about the Dunkellin were honoured. I know they have no interest in it except a political one. I should like to know what the Minister of State proposes to do. At this time of the year Minister gathered in places like Barrettstown House to divide the kitty for the coming year. They put a couple of pence on the pint and so on. They take nothing off the price of anything. I should like the Minister of State to tell the Minister for Finance that he wants a decent allocation for arterial drainage in 1982.
Assuming he gets the necessary allocation, are the necessary plans ready for work on the Dunkellin, or the river in Kerry to which Deputy McEllistrim referred, or the Suck, or the Shannon, or the part of the Corrib to which I referred the other day where work stopped in 1964 and has not been restarted since. Have the Office of Public Works drawn up the necessary programme so that we can go ahead and carry out some of these drainage schemes if money is available from the local authorities and if by some miracle we get money from the EEC?
We should have a separate office to deal with drainage and take total responsibility for it. They should draw up the proper priorities so that when money becomes available it can be spent for the benefit of farmers. I am aware that people who have an interest in shooting or in wildlife prevent some of this work. I will say no more about that. If the Minister gets a chance to reply I hope he will answer some of the points I have raised. If not, I suggest that he should write to me and give me an answer to them.
I shall speak for four or five minutes only because I promised another Deputy five minutes, but Deputy Donnellan spoke for longer than expected. However, he has said most of what I had intended saying and I shall not repeat it.
Over the years when an Estimate for the Office of Public Works was debated the question of arterial drainage has arisen. I contend that there was not sufficient money provided for this purpose by any Government. There is a lot of talk at present about EEC aid. Deputy McEllistrim made it clear that the 50 per cent supposed to come for the survey of the Shannon was not notified to them at the time the Estimates were being drawn up for the Office of Public Works this year. As Deputy Donnellan said, the small amount being provided for arterial drainage each year is a joke if we really mean to drain the land.
I agree with practically everything Deputy Donnellan had to say, except that he blamed the previous Government. It must be remembered that the previous Coalition were in power for four years when nothing was done about a cost-benefit analysis with regard to the Dunkellin river. At least Deputy McEllistrim came to Galway and, I understand, left an order that the survey would commence in October. Indeed, I made a mistake in putting down a question to the present Minister contending that the survey had started already. I made a mistake in that respect — it was to start in October; that is what Deputy McEllistrim told us. Therefore Deputy Donnellan was wrong in that respect. I am very much interested in the drainage of that river.
Also with regard to the survey on the Shannon why in the name of goodness can we not put up the money here rather than relying on funds from the EEC? Indeed I discovered that the Office of Public Works had not the staff to carry out a survey on the Shannon in conjunction with the Dunkellin.
No Government took seriously enough the whole question of arterial drainage. Indeed there is something to be said for Deputy Donnellan's suggestion of splitting up the Office of Public Works and for having a special section deal with arterial drainage. There is no point in talking about manuring land or doing anything else with it until it has been drained. This whole question is of vital importance to us in the west and I shall say no more about it at present.
I want to make one comment, however, on the Office of Public Works in general. They are doing an excellent job, particularly on ancient monuments. However, I have a crib with them, that is that when they take over ancient monuments or abbeys invariably there are people there who have a traditional right to buried there. My family is a case in point and I have said before that I intend to be buried in such a place. My crib with the Office of Public Works is that they take it upon themselves not exactly to put on a closure but to make it so difficult for people that they cannot actually get into such places. I made representations to the Minister, he promised me certain concessions, we were to meet officials of the Office of Public Works and discuss the matter. Yet before a particular burial took place we were told we had to ring the local office in Athenry and wait for a man to come out. Who, in the name of God, with a relative dead, would want to take upon themselves the task of telephoning an office and awaiting the arrival of somebody to show them where to bury their dead? I object strenuously to this practice. I grant that they are doing an excellent job on ancient monuments but I stress that they cannot take away the God given right of the people who laid all belonging to them to rest in such places and intend continuing that practice. I want to make that quite clear.
There are many things I should like to say on the whole aspect of the activities of the Office of Public Works but time does not permit. I wish the Minister well in his tough task. He has not got the adequate money or staff with which to carry out the arterial drainage needed.
Deputy McMahon rose.
I understood there would be no other speaker from the Government side of the House and that I would have a few minutes.
I did not speak for even four minutes. I sat down in order to give way——
Ordinarily the Chair would move to the other side. I understood from Deputy Donnellan that an agreement had taken place and that an arrangement had been made that Deputies Callanan and Fitzsimons would follow him. The Chair reluctantly accepted that agreement because ordinarily the Chair does not. In respect of this debate the Chair had been so advised and Deputy Callanan, who would have been entitled to speak until 4.30 p.m. having given way, the Chair is calling Deputy Fitzsimons.
I will have to give way to your ruling, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle but it is grossly unfair and creates a precedent to have two speakers from one side of the House when there is a speaker on the other side offering. I was not aware that there was this restriction. Therefore, under protest, I bow to your ruling and out of respect for the office you hold. But this type of precedent should not be created. It is grossly unfair.
The Chair is the sole judge. Since I arrived, Deputy Fitzsimons had been here. I appreciate that Deputy McMahon arrived just a minute or two ago. I was informed of this understanding between the Deputies who were present, I accepted it and, having accepted it, I must abide by it and I am now calling Deputy Fitzsimons.
It means that there will have been three Fianna Fáil speakers now. Deputy Donnellan will have been the only person on this side of the House who will have spoken as against three on the Fianna Fáil side. As regards your remark about my having just come into the House, I should say that I have a monitor in my office — I knew that Deputy Donnellan would be speaking, I was here with him earlier — and I was waiting until he had risen to speak before coming down here. This is normal practice for a Deputy.
I thank the Chair. I did make that arrangement with Deputies Donnellan and Callanan and perhaps Deputy McMahon was not aware of that. I would ask you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, to allow me the time lost discussing procedure.
The Chair cannot do that. This debate will conclude at 4.30 p.m.
In that case I will get to the kernel of what I have to say straightaway. This is a vast Estimate covering many activities of the Office of Public Works. I shall refer immediately to the situation as it affects my constituency and particularly that of the drainage of the Boyne in County Meath. I have always welcomed and been a supporter of arterial drainage. After ten years working on the Rivers Boyne and Blackwater there are other areas about to be drained by the Office of Public Works which could benefit by or learn from their mistakes in that area. With the drainage of those two rivers now reaching completion I would urge the Minister to order an objective study of the advantages and disadvantages of these costly drainage schemes. If the Minister agrees with my proposal then an evaluation should be undertaken by an agency other than the Office of Public Works who have been responsible for arterial drainage.
With public finance so scarce it is now more important than ever to ensure that the work carried out on the drainage of rivers is worthwhile and done in a commonsense manner. There is no doubt that such works are beneficial and give tremendous employment. We would all dearly love to have our land drained but it must be done to the benefit of the community at large. In Meath the once beautiful, meandering rivers, the Boyne and Blackwater, have been gutted, rendered characterless, mature trees having been hacked out, river banks bulldozed into sharp straight lines, undergrowth dragged away, wild life driven off and fish life seriously destroyed. It is clear that more thought should have been given to the complex question of the benefits of the scheme. Nobody can question a farmer's entitlement to have his land properly drained but it must be remembered that other people have rights also. Those people with no agricultural land have as much claim to our rivers as anybody else. It must be said that the people of Navan have lost certain important amenities since the drainage of the Boyne. No consideration was given to the wishes of the townspeople when the Office of Public Works wiped out the weirs which were on the Boyne for centuries and where the local people learned to swim. If the Office of Public Works attempted to do the same now, ten years later, there would be a hue and cry and the people would not allow this to be done.
Excellent efforts have been made to preserve houses which have stood for two or three centuries. How much more valuable than a house is the last river of its kind which God took ages to create? The Blackwater was one of the last great limestone streams in its natural state. All that has now been changed for the want of thought. The Office of Public Works should restore some of the beauty of the Boyne and Blackwater. They should immediately start planting trees to replace the mature timber which was sacrificed. Fast growing trees should be selected for the river banks. Any community agreeing in the future to the drainage of their local rivers should first come to Meath and see some of the destruction of the environment that can follow. I believe there should be a system of monitoring drainage work done by the Office of Public Works. A river should not be raped simply to make it possible for farmers to use fields when the river is in spate.
More consideration should be given to the wishes of the urban dweller, the cottager and those without any land. In some parts of County Meath where drainage has been carried out local residents subsequently found that their wells had gone dry. While the Office of Public Works would not admit liability in this matter, they frequently come to some arrangement—I believe they should come to a full arrangement—to ensure that people who suffered financial loss through their wells running dry should be compensated.
I have already given the Deputy an extra minute.
I will finish almost immediately. I want to mention briefly one point. Kilcarn Bridge is on the way to Navan. It is no coincidence that since the drainage of the Boyne the foundations of this old bridge have suffered structural damage. There was an arrangement between the local county council and the Office of Public Works that the OPW would demolish this bridge.
The Deputy has a very liberal interpretation of the word "immediately".
This is one of the most ancient bridges in Ireland and was referred to as far back as the sixteenth century. The people of Navan do not want it demolished and the OPW have been notified of that fact.
Is Vote No. 9 agreed?
I want to put on the record that I would welcome an opportunity to publicly refute many of the allegations of carelessness that have been made during this debate.
The Minister of State will appreciate that the Chair has no control over the limits of the debates. I merely obey.
I would like an opportunity to publicly refute the allegations that have been made against certain firms and certain people, because they are not true.
The Minister's comments are on the record and I am sure appropriate action will be taken.
I want to complain——
I am afraid the Deputy is out of order.
Is it possible for the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to be out of order?
The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is not out of order and I ask the Deputy to let me proceed with the business of the House. Vote no. 39.
You refused me permission——
I do not have to give any explanation of my decisions. Vote 39, led'thoil.
You refused——
The Deputy will resume his seat. He is being disorderly. There are 25 minutes remaining for the discussion of Votes 39 and 4.
On a point of order——
The Deputy is not rising on a point of order.
All I am looking for is fair play.
Aire na Gaeltachta, Vote 39——
On a point of order——
The Chair has told the Deputy he is not raising a point of order.
I submit that I am rising on a point of order. At 4.25 p. m. I sought permission to make a short contribution to the debate on the Office of Public Works. You indicated that there was an arrangement between you and two Fianna Fáil Deputies——
The Chair did no such thing. I said I understood from your colleague, Deputy Donnellan, that there was an arrangement between him and other Deputies, an arrangement not of my making.
But you accepted it.
I was honouring that arrangement. In that respect the Deputy should take issue with his colleague and allow me to proceed with the business of the House.
I submitted to your ruling on the understanding that the debate was ending at 4.30 p.m. When I went back to my office I noticed at almost 4.35 p.m. that Deputy Fitzsimons was still speaking——
Deputy McMahon denied Deputy Fitzsimons three of the five minutes which were allowed to him. The Chair will not allow Deputy McMahon to interfere with the business of the House. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.
This is the first time——
I am asking the Deputy to resume his seat or leave the House.
I am asking for an explanation.
I am asking the Deputy to leave the House. If he does not I will send for the Ceann Comhairle:
You denied me——
I am asking the Deputy to leave the House.
I am sorry to have to say this but——
I am sending for the Ceann Comhairle.
I have always found the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to be impartial, but not this evening. It is disgraceful that you have allowed a debate to continue for four minutes after 4.30 p.m. when you denied me an opportunity to speak. You called three Fianna Fáil speakers for one Government speaker. This is an absolute disgrace.
Deputy McMahon withdrew from the Chamber.
Now that Deputy McMahon has left the House we will proceed with the business.
