Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Jan 1982

Vol. 332 No. 1

Issue of Writ: Cavan-Monaghan By-Election

Mr. Wilson

I move:

That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his Writ for the election of a member to fill the vacancy which has occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the death of Deputy Kieran Doherty, a member for the Constituency of Cavan-Monaghan.

When Deputy Moore moved this previously, various arguments were advanced as to why it should not be passed by the House. The Taoiseach said we had a very heavy legislative programme to get through. He said that the only consideration which could apply must be the question of the legislative programme. The Taoiseach also said that the changeover to tax credits instead of tax allowances in the income tax code was fundamental and that the implementation of that measure and of the associated payment of £9.60 to non-working housewives, he was advised by the Revenue Commissioners, could only be undertaken if legislation went through last session. He said that if it were left to be put through after the budget it would not be implemented by the date set and announced at the first press conference after the election — the beginning of the income tax year next April.

That was the reason given on the last occasion when I made an attempt to have the writ accepted by the House. That whole tax package is now a matter of some mirth among not merely the Opposition Members but among members of the Coalition Government and cannot possibly be used as an argument now for refusing to face the electorate in Cavan-Monaghan. The Tánaiste has asked that the whole package should be looked at again. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Desmond has also spoken about it. Consequently, I do not think it is of any great importance any more. The people who were supposed to have benefited most regard the whole matter with disdain, and the House should not be delayed by it. On the last occasion I indicated that the position of the constituency was of some importance, that it was a pivotal constituency, that three of the Six Counties bordered it and that it was a large constituency, I also indicated that the people in that constituency are very interested in the democratic process and that we had the highest valid poll there — 60,411 voters. I also indicated that, apart from the constituency in which the Ceann Comhairle stood and was automatically re-elected, we had in that constituency the highest quota, 10,069.

These are the people who are being deprived of the opportunity of expressing themselves through the ballot box. They are very anxious to exercise their right to elect a Deputy to the vacancy that has occurred. The Government should have gone before the people so that they could be judged by their first budget. We did not succeed in doing that, but if the House accepts the motion now, we will have an opportunity of finding out what the people in Cavan-Monaghan think of the last budget and the one which will be announced tomorrow. People are anxious to give their views on the handling of the economy by the Coalition Government. It would be a good thing if we had an end to what has been going on, where there are admissions of people making a mistake in their sums of £170 million and the Coalition Government treating the electorate as Pavlov treated his dogs. The Taoiseach says one day he has found £170 million and the Minister for Finance comes back the following day telling us not to get into good humour, that euphoria is out and gloom is still around.

The constituency is also anxious to have members of the Government operating there so that they can give an account of their stewardship with regard to the state of industry there. We can say, with great pleasure, that from 1977 to 1981 industry improved to the extent that there were 1,100 more people employed in the manufacturing industry in 1981 than there were in 1977.

There are problems. The Minister for Forestry and Fisheries will know about them. The general secretary of the trade union concerned has been in touch with him as he has been with me. We want to know what the Government will do about them. We have a motion on the Order Paper at the moment indicating the concern of this party about what appears to be the economic withdrawal of this Government from the west of Ireland. That is something we should also like to discuss and debate with the electorate of Cavan-Monaghan as the jury.

At Question Time the Minister for Industry and Energy indicated that he does not know that there is a special definition of the west so far as economic and industrial development are concerned. I should like him to bone up on his own brief before he comes down to aid Fine Gael in that by-election. I understand the Labour Party do not intend to put forward a candidate for it.

As reported at volume 330, column 234 of the Official Report of 21 October Deputy Kemmy said:

As far as I am concerned the matter we are discussing can be left until the New Year.

The new year is here and I want Deputy Kemmy to back his judgment of October with his vote in January.

On occasion it is worthwhile to have a look at the procedures in other parliaments. This is a common enough practice. Judges refer to precedents in other countries, and so on. One does not have to be an Englishman to know that the English are proud of what they call the mother of parliaments. Not everybody would agree with that assessment of it and its activities, particularly with regard to subject countries. It is worth looking at how they proceeded with regard to the vacancies in the constituency which is next door to my constituency, Fermanagh and South Tyrone.

Mr. Frank Maguire died on 5 March 1981 and the writ was moved on 20 March 1981. The by-election took place on 9 April 1981.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Wilson without interruption.

Mr. Wilson

Mr. Sands who was elected at that by-election died on 5 May 1981 and the writ was moved on 30 July 1981. The by-election was held on 21 August 1981. Deputy Doherty who was a Member of this House died on 4 August 1981. I suggest to the Taoiseach, who is interested in constitutional and parliamentary reform, and always has been, that he should ponder on his right to deprive the people of an opportunity to express their views, in a by-election after such a long period, on the performance of the Government. Is he saying the Taoiseach and the Government have a right to prevent the people from voting in a by-election and giving their views on the activities of the Government for an indefinite period? I do not know.

There is a possibility that the Taoiseach may announce that he has accepted the suggestion Deputy Loftus made when this matter was before the House on a previous occasion, namely, that the Government should concede the seat to Fianna Fáil. It may very well be that the Taoiseach is about to announce that he is accepting that suggestion. If not, the Government should accept the challenge for a fair joust in Cavan-Monaghan and find out what the people down there think about them. They will get one hell of a surprise.

The Taoiseach

I do not propose to follow Deputy Wilson's Pavlovian canine red herrings all the way. I want to clarify one point lest there be any confusion or doubt about it with respect to the Finance (No. 3) Bill, 1981. The advice given to us at the time when I spoke, to which Deputy Wilson referred, was that the Bill needed to be put through by Christmas. Subsequently we were advised, as I told the Dáil, that it was necessary that the Bill should be published and that would be sufficient. Deputy Wilson seems to feel that in some way the Bill is superflous. I should like to assure him that it is not. It is in this Bill that the provisions related to family income supplements for low income groups, who were never previously aided by any Government measure, will be effected. That Bill has to go through with other measures. The Government oppose the moving of the writ at this time and propose to move it after the passage of the budgetary measures and the Finance Bills when Deputy Wilson's suggestion about Ministers being available in the constituency can be more readily fulfilled.

Dr. O'Hanlon

I second Deputy Wilson's proposal that the by-election should be held right away. As he pointed out, the people of Cavan-Monaghan feel a certain amount of frustration because they are not getting their rightful opportunity to pass judgment on the Government. Deputy Wilson dealt with the industrial side, and I should like to deal with the farming side. This constituency is composed mainly of small farmers who would welcome an opportunity to pass judgment on the performance of the Government to date.

They are concerned about the fact that the western package has not been implemented. They are concerned about the withdrawal of money from western development and from the western drainage schemes. They are also concerned about the cutback in the farm modernisation programme. They are concerned about the fact that the Government have not implemented their own policies particularly in relation to the calf subsidy which was promised by them before they took office.

This is a very large constituency. It is broadly representative of the people in the rest of the country. A by-election there would give the Government an apportunity to see how the people react to their July budget and the budget to be presented tomorrow. The Taoiseach has shown a great desire for changes in the Constitution, particularly in relation to Articles 2 and 3. The fact that there is not much interest in that matter in the consituency may be influencing the Taoiseach in some way. Has he any desire to change Article 16 of the Constitution which governs membership of the Dáil? The spirit of that Article justifies holding a by-election at this time.

Mr. Haughey

May I ask the Taoiseach two questions arising from what he said? I took it from what he said that it would be his idea that this by-election should not take place until after the passing of the Finance Bill this year. Would the Taoiseach agree that that would be somewhere around May 1982, towards the end of May 1982?

The Taoiseach

May, probably.

Mr. Haughey

May or June 1982?

The Taoiseach

It will be our aim to get it through and to hold the by-election as soon as possible. I would say May is the probability.

Mr. Haughey

So in fact, the Taoiseach is proposing to the House that this by-election should be postponed until May?

Mr. Lenihan

At least.

Mr. G. Collins

Or June.

Mr. Haughey

Does the Taoiseach think seriously, sincerely and earnestly that those of us in this House, including himself, who preach the supremacy of the ballot box are doing a favour to the democratic process by suggesting that, in this constituency in these circumstances, this by-election should be delayed indefinitely as he suggests?

The Taoiseach

In reply to that point, I feel Deputy Haughey is estopped from showing excessive indignation on the subject because of the procedures he did not adopt in the case of the vacancy in Tipperary following Deputy O'Kennedy's appointment.

Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism (Mr. Kelly)

Although Deputy Haughey's intervention — and nobody can be sure it will be his last — took the form of questions, it was, of course, technically a speech. I have to observe that it differs very markedly from the speech he made when a similar motion was before the House on the last occasion in October. On that occasion he assured the Government, and anyone else who cared to listen, that there would be no necessary conflict between holding the by-election and getting on with the Government's tough programme; because, for his part, he could guarantee that we would get all the co-operation necessary in order to enable this to be done. That very handsome offer was not repeated this afternoon. I think he was very well advised not to repeat it, because the degree of disingenuousness it contained on the last occasion was so highly visible that it would leave him with less credibility, if possible, than he has, were he to repeat it now.

I want to tell the House briefly a couple of things about the holding of by-elections seen from the point of view of trying to organise Government business. Perhaps we might have looked a little further than the British in constructing the form in which our parliament works. Perhaps we might have looked to countries which I hope Deputies Haughey and Wilson would acknowledge are equally parliamentary democracies, but which do not regard it as necessary to go back to a particular constituency in order to fill a casual vacancy. I do not offer any judgment on that now but we have that system for better or worse. When we have a contest, it is asking too much of flesh and blood that the people most prominent in the contesting parties will not go out and take sides in it. Although we all deplore the waste of time and of life and effort which goes into by-elections, that has been done since this State was founded.

It is nonsensical to suggest that the business of the House can continue here at what one might call a normal tempo when a by-election is in progress. If it were possible to scan, by something like an electrocardiogram or encephalograph, the debates of this House over the last 60 years, one would find that the vibrations sank almost to a horizontal level at certain points. If one were to plot against that graph the times when by-elections occurred one would find that those horizontal patches corresponded exactly.

I can tell the House that a Government which is a lazy Government, which has no particular plans, which does not mind going out for three weeks, slogging it out — in the depths of winter, what is more — with the other side in any particular constituency, would have no problem about going out and fighting a by-election. But a Government who have a problem such as we have, namely, that we have a programme to get through, one made all the more necessary by the era of misgovernment which preceded us, realise that it simply cannot be done.

I can recall by-elections held during the term of the Twentieth Dáil. I can recall one in the constituency of Monaghan, another pair held on the same day in East and West Galway, another pair held in Dublin South-West and in North-East Donegal on the same day, and one in West Mayo also. I think those were the six by-elections held during the term of the Twentieth Dáil and, on each occasion, the House was in session. I then had the job Deputy Fergus O'Brien now has and essentially, the House's pulse — not through any fault of mine but simply because I could not put business through without a full House behind me — slowed almost to a stand-still. We had Estimate debate after Estimate debate. Occasionally, when we could not and did not wish to avoid a Private Member's Motion, a vote had to take place on Wednesday evening and Deputies were whipped to come up. A minimum amount of pairing only took place. Perhaps there might have been one vote in the week. As soon as that vote was over they scuttled off, paying perhaps a quick call on their constituencies, otherwise getting back to the scene of the conflict.

It is not reasonable to accept that anything except a sort of free-wheeling debate — in which one can predict the time of the vote — can take place on a Tuesday or on a Thursday, and perhaps even on a great part of Wednesday, in conditions like that. That being said, I hope the House will see the point that, if there were no other element to be said for the point of view the Taoiseach has expressed, this one must carry very powerful conviction.

I want to offer the House a much smaller and humbler argument in relation to the time of year. I know we are all great democrats. Perhaps we like to see ourselves cast in stone with a toga and a loving inscription on the plinth. It may be that Members of this House will in due course so qualify. Perhaps gems from Deputy Wilson's speech here this afternoon will be engraved on his plinth. But let me put before the House the humble consideration that we are in the depths of one of the bitterest winters this country has had in 20 years. We do not know when the weather is going to turn bad again.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kelly

Evening begins, Sir, practically at 4 o'clock or 4.30 in the afternoon. And anybody over there who pretends that that is a matter of indifference to him is simply pretending. I remember 1974 and 1975, before the temper of the House improved with the new sitting hours. We were under fire here right through the end of June into July, and on one occasion into the first week in August. The noises made in the House over here by the people now in opposition at the time were: "We will sit here right through the recess; we will not bother with the recess at all; we will sit here until we have thrashed out this business properly and we will not submit to time allocation motions or anything else of that kind"— that was the public face they presented in here — but that was not the face presented to me in the corridors outside or when I went up to talk to the Fianna Fáil Whips ——

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

The people over there introduced a guillotine motion then.

Mr. Kelly

Then it was a case of: "When in the name of God are you going to let us off?" When I finally went up to the Fianna Fáil Whips and announced, in 1974 and 1975, that we had been reluctantly compelled to decide to put down time allocation motions, I did not see any long faces up there; no, there were smiles from ear to ear at the news that their hours were going to be cut short. That was simply a question of their summer holidays, and they did not put it as anything more important than that; but it is a simple, human consideration. I think this House must contain a lot of solemn asses if we are too solemn to admit that the time of year is also a consideration of some small human, and perhaps even other, importance in the context of a by-election.

Mr. Alderman Dublin Bay-Rockall Loftus

I should point out that I did not say that the by-election should be conceded to Fianna Fáil. I said the by-election should go ahead and that Fianna Fáil or anyone else who wished to contest it should do so, that the Government should do the job they are elected to do, that is to govern. I support this motion, contending that the Government should let it go ahead and that the Government do not have to contest it. They were elected to govern. However, ideally, we should all come together in a National Government, get this budget through and have a national consensus, then sort things out in perhaps two or three years' time. We need a breathing space in terms of all that is happening, in terms of all the political parties and the political problems they have had to encounter since the general election. Therefore I support the motion that we go ahead and hold the by-election. I say still to the Government that their job is to get legislation through and govern the country.

Mr. Wilson

My first reaction to the Taoiseach's intervention was one of grave disappointment. I think he treated the whole matter in a cavalier fashion, did not seem to be regarding the matter as in any way important and, for that reason, he deserves the censure of the House. It is a serious business. It is considered so by great numbers of people and the democratic principle is an important one. I regret very much — I shall not elaborate on it — that that was the Taoiseach's attitude. If the Minister, Deputy Kelly, had had his toga on perhaps it might have induced some logic into his argument because I gather that he does think of the business of this House as being important. What I should like to know is, how is the business of the House less important in May or June than it is in September or than it is in January? If one were to follow his argument one would form the conclusion that there is a period in parliamentary business when the work is not as important as at other times and that the encephalograph he mentioned would show the horizontal waves in June. What is the difference between horizontal waves in June and in January? I cannot get the logic of it at all. I do not think that the Minister was serious in his contribution.

I am asking the House to accept this motion. The Members of this House who will be operating in the by-election will find a kindly, hospitable, shrewd people, people who will listen politely but who will form their own conclusions. If I am to judge by my own assessment that conclusion will be that Senator Jimmy Leonard should return to this House.

Another lack of consistency in the behaviour of the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism is that in September last he said the writ would be moved by the Government as soon as the Dáil resumed. Obviously he has changed his mind on that and, perhaps with the aid of a good, strong vote in this House, he may change his mind on when this by-election should be held.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 78; Níl, 81.

Tá

• Acheson, Carrie.
• Ahern, Bertie.
• Alderman Dublin Bay-Rockall Loftus, Seán D.
• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Andrews, Niall.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Paudge.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Byrne, Hugh. (Wexford).
• Callanan, John.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Colley, George.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Conaghan, Hugh.
• Connolly, Gerard.
• Coughlan, Clement.
• Cowen, Bernard.
• Crowley, Flor.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Filgate, Eddie.
• Fitzgerald, Gene.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South-Central).
• Fitzsimons, Jim.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Foley, Denis.
• French, Seán.
• Gallagher, Denis.
• Gallagher, Pat Cope. Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Hyland, Liam.
• Joyce, Carey.
• Keegan, Seán.
• Kenneally, William.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Lemass, Eileen.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leyden, Terry.
• Loughnane, William.
• Lyons, Denis. McCarthy, Seán.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Moore, Seán.
• Morley, P. J.
• Murphy, Ciarán P.J.
• Nolan, Tom.
• Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
• O'Donoghue, Martin.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond.
• Power, Paddy.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Smith, Michael.
• Tunney, Jim. Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Woods, Michael J.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Myra.
• Barry, Peter.
• Begley, Michael.
• Bermingham, Joseph.
• Birmingham, George.
• Boland, John.
• Bruton, John.
• Burke, Dick.
• Burke, Liam.
• Byrne, Hugh. (Dublin North-West).
• Collins, Edward.
• Conlon, John F.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam T.
• Cosgrave, Michael J.
• Coveney, Hugh.
• Creed, Donal.
• Hegarty, Paddy.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Keating, Michael.
• Kelly, John.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• L'Estrange, Gerry.
• McCartin, John J.
• McMahon, Larry.
• Markey, Bernard.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Molony, David.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Brien, William.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• Crowley, Frank.
• D'Arcy, Michael J.
• Deasy, Martin A.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Donneilan, John F.
• Dukes, Alan M.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• Fennell, Nuala.
• FitzGerald, Garret.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Fleming, Brian.
• Glenn, Alice.
• Governey, Desmond.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• O'Toole, Paddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Ryan, John J.
• Ryan Richie.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, Patrick J.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Spring, Dick.
• Taylor, Madeleine.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Treacy, Seán.
• Tully, James.
• White, James.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Raphael Burke and Fitzsimons; Níl, Deputies F. O'Brien and Mervyn Taylor.

Question declared lost.