Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Apr 1982

Vol. 333 No. 9

Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Bill, 1982: From the Seanad (Resumed).

The Dáil went into Committee to resume consideration of an amendment from the Seanad.

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Committee do not agree with the Seanad in Amendment No. 1 to the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Bill, 1982.

—(Minister for the Environment.)

Mr. P. Barry

Before we adjourned last night I was replying to the point made by the Minister that there was a danger that the 7 per cent would become the norm rather than the ceiling figure. That point was, rather oddly, taken up by Deputy Sherlock who announced last night on behalf of his party that if this matter comes to a vote he will vote with the Government. In the past few days Deputy Sherlock's party have changed their name to The Workers Party to emphasise their concern for the workers and it seems extraordinary that three days later he should announce his intention to vote against a measure that seeks to put a ceiling on the amount of rent that can be charged for what are now controlled dwellings but which will become de-controlled after 25 August.

Last night I gave an example of a landlord in Cork who owns 200 small terrace-type houses and who has been sending eviction notices to the tenants. These notices to quit have been drawn up by the landlord and have not been processed through the courts. The tenants have been told they must leave if they do not pay rents that vary between £25 and £35 per week.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I know the Deputy will help me by making this relevant to the 7 per cent.

Mr. P. Barry

The landlord in question has been demanding rents of £25 to £35 per week but a similar type house was sold in the past 12 months for £14,000. That works out at less than a rent of £25 per week. If the Bill does not provide a ceiling figure, it is possible that when tenants appeal to the District Court or to the tribunal they will be told that the amount being charged by the landlord is fair taking into consideration the criteria they must apply in assessing the rent. In that case it will be in excess of the 7 per cent. The Seanad sought to put a ceiling on what the courts would charge. We are not saying that the courts must charge 7 per cent. The amendment states that the gross rent shall not in any case exceed 7 per cent. District Justices are accustomed to interpreting the law and they would read that as meaning precisely what it says. It does not mean that the figure has to be 7 per cent or even 2 per cent but that the figure shall not exceed 7 per cent. The fear that it will become the norm in cases referred to the court is unjustified and the House should not take it as a serious threat.

The other plank in the Minister's argument for rejecting the amendment was that it may be unconstitutional. The Minister has a duty to try to introduce legislation in keeping with the Constitution. On two occasions legislation passed by this House in good faith was found to be unconstitutional by the courts. It is only a matter of opinion whether a clause such as this would be constitutional or unconstitutional. That is a matter for the court to decide.

In many other areas we control prices and they are not appealed to the courts as being against the Constitution. A wide range of legislation controls prices in other areas. I am thinking of price controls in relation to drink and tobacco which are subject to maximum price orders but, for instance, tobacco manufacturers have not appealed to the courts when the Government did not allow them what they considered a fair market price. They have not taken their case to court with the plea that the legislation controlling their prices is unconstitutional.

The duty of the legislators is to protect the people. When we control the price of tobacco we do so to protect the users of the product, and the same applies with regard to control of house prices. Tobacco manufacturers have not appealed to the courts to declare unconstitutional legislation controlling the price of their product. When a fair return is being given to the property owners I do not believe the court would uphold an appeal against this section as being unconstitutional.

My opinion and that of lawyers on this side of the House who examined this amendment, is that it is constitutional and would stand up if appealed in court. The Minister is probably getting different and opposite advice from the lawyers in his Department and the Attorney General's Office. It is reasonable for this House to tell one group of lawyers we are rejecting their advice because it does not protect tenants and that we are accepting other advice, even though it comes from the other side of the House, because we are told the amendment is not in breach of the Constitution and is a protection for the tenants who come under this legislation.

This matter was debated very fully and fairly in the Seanad — a number of people contributed, including the Minister, Senator S. O'Leary, Senator Robinson, Senator Whitaker and others — and they made a very sound case for this amendment. Therefore I believe we should accept it.

Mr. D. Andrews

I would like to make a number of points on what I see as an effort to introduce obscurantist legislation. This amendment is quite clearly unconstitutional. There is nothing sacred about the advice given by Fine Gael lawyers to their front bench Deputies. In this instance the advice received by their Deputy Leader is wrong. This amendment is clearly discriminatory. Of course we want to do the best we can for the tenants but we also have an obligation to the landlords. This is what democracy is about. We have to ensure that both parties are given a fair deal. Naturally one's inclination is to assist those we consider to be the weaker party, namely the tenants. In my view this amendment was put down in a fit of pique by some maverick Senator.

Mr. Quinn

That is unfair.

Mr. P. Barry

And untrue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I advised other speakers that they were not even entitled to refer to Seanad contributions. Obviously they are not entitled to refer in a disrespectful fashion to a Member of that House.

Mr. D. Andrews

I did not name the Member who put down this vexatious and unnecessary amendment, but I understand it was put down to embarrass the Minister and the Government and for no other reason.

Mr. Quinn

Not so.

Mr. D. Andrews

I believe it was not put down in good faith. That is why I ask the deputy leader of the Fine Gael Party to withdraw the amendment and to recognise that the advice he got from his lawyer pals is wrong. I have spoken to lawyers — and they could not be described as Fianna Fáil lawyers — about this amendment and they are satisfied that the legislation proposed by the main Opposition party is discriminatory. We are not in the business of introducing legislation which discriminates against one or both parties. We are here to proclaim our intention of putting through this House legislation based on justice and equity and I do not believe this amendment measures up to justice and equity.

Mr. Gregory-Independent

I support the original Bill which was introduced as a short-term urgent measure to afford some protection to tenants who are facing what could be a very vulnerable situation, and I intend to vote against the amendment because I believe it would not be in the best interests of the tenants.

I have listened to the arguments for and against this amendment and found myself in agreement with the very clear arguments put forward by the Minister, particularly the view that once a maximum is fixed, sooner or later—and I believe in this case it would very much sooner—that maximum becomes the norm. I have no doubt that if 7 per cent became the norm this could weigh very heavily on a great number of tenants and would not be in their best interests.

Some speakers for the amendment agreed that if it is passed it could result in the 7 per cent becoming the norm and they felt there was no great difficulty about this. Other speakers also in favour of the amendment contradicted that statement. That confusion among those supporting the amendment has, if anything, strengthened my resolve to vote against it. I do not intend to delay the House further but, as the previous speaker said, there does not seem to have been a great deal of thought put into this amendment and its only result so far has been to delay a very badly needed measure.

Mr. P. Barry

I agree that the measure is badly needed but it has not delayed the measure. This is not a short-term measure. The short-term measure is already law and is effective until 25 August and we have until that date to see that the best legislation possible goes through this House. This is the long-term measure.

Deputy Gregory and Deputy D. Andrews said this was an ill-conceived, badly thought out, rushed amendment in the Seanad and he referred to a maverick Senator. Outside the language which the Chair rightly corrected him about, it is no function of any Deputy to criticise a Member of either House in such language. I pointed this out to the Minister last night because he did the same thing outside these Houses. If one uses such language one lets down oneself, one's party, and diminishes the respect the ordinary people have for this House and for the Seanad. The Minister was even more hypocritical than Deputy Andrews because he attacked Senator O'Leary outside this House——

Mr. D. Andrews

Is it right for the Opposition to admonish a humble Government backbencher—

Mr. Quinn

Deputy Andrews could never be accused of that.

Mr. D. Andrews

——and to accuse me of hypocrisy.

Mr. P. Barry

I did not.

Mr. D. Andrews

I made my contribution in all sincerity and meant what I said.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Andrews can take it that the Chair will protect him.

Mr. D. Andrews

You are not protecting me now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair was about to tell Deputy Barry that. When he was making his initial contribution I reminded him to refrain from discussing anything said in the Seanad.

Mr. P. Barry

This matter has been well debated. I did not accuse Deputy Andrews of hypocrisy. I accused the Minister because he attacked Senator O'Leary outside the confines of this House.

Mr. Raphael Burke

For pushing the vote and delaying this badly-needed legislation.

Mr. P. Barry

In the Seanad the Minister said:

I take this opportunity to congratulate Senator O'Leary on the amount of work he obviously put into the preparation of his case for his amendment which showed a tremendous depth of research.

For the benefit of Deputy Andrews, the last words spoken by the Minister in the Seanad before the amendment was put were:

Quite honestly, I accept the good faith of Senator O'Leary, Senator Robinson and others who have debated this point.

Mr. D. Andrews

It is a zany amendment.

Mr. P. Barry

the Deputy should have listened to the debate last night and he would not have made the contribution he made this morning.

Mr. Raphael Burke

He made an excellent contribution.

Mr. D. Andrews

It was a piece of undermining of parliamentary democracy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Quinn, without interruption.

Mr. Raphael Burke

The unfortunate tenants are left in this position.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair appeals to Deputies to allow the debate to continue in an orderly fashion. I have called Deputy Quinn.

Mr. Quinn

I should like to deal with one or two points. We are wrapping up this legislation and obviously the Government have wrapped up the Independent votes, so why delay the agony much longer? Once this Bill becomes law, in the vast majority of cases the tenants will be worse off than they are at present. With very few exceptions rents will increase and tenants will be worse off because the Minister, with the skill he has acquired over many years, has succeeded in dumping on the shoulders of the unfortunate Department of Social Welfare the responsibility to administer the rescue system which is designed to pick up the pieces when this regrettable Bill has been forced upon the House because of an interpretation of the Constitution.

I do not wish to go over old ground. We are all beginning to sound like long-playing records. I presume Uachtarán na hÉireann will be reading this debate and consulting with the Council of State on the Bill. In view of the learned contribution made by the humble backbencher, as he described himself, on the top row of the Fianna Fáil benches about the constitutionality of section 13, the Government's interpretation or the one put forward by Senator O'Leary, it is reasonable and proper for me to request the President to have due regard to the frequent references to constitutionality by the Minister in his opening speech, by the deputy leader of Fine Gael and by others, and to try to get this matter clarified. We are probably within the timetable to get a referral to the Supreme Court and to get a decision back from them before the third temporary short-term Bill expires. I accept that the Minister has indicated that it is very tight. Perhaps the judges could come to a fairly quick conclusion in view of the fact that already it has been argued in substance. We will be supporting this amendment.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I do not want to go over all the constitutional arguments which were made last night and my reservations on the constitutional validity of this amendment. My fear, and the fear which has been accepted by a number of speakers, including Deputy Quinn, is that, rather than being a ceiling which is the intention behind the amendment, the 7 per cent will very rapidly become the norm. That would be to the detriment of the weaker parties involved, the tenants. For that reason I continue to reject this amendment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is now putting the question:—"That Seanad amendment No. 1 be not agreed."

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 63.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Bellew, Tom.
• Blaney, Neil T.
• Brady, Gerard. (Dublin South-East).
• Brady, Gerry. (Kildare)
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Matty.
• Brennan, Ned.
• Brennan, Seamus.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Myra.
• Barry, Peter.
• Begley, Michael.
• Bermingham, Joe.
• Bermingham, George.
• Boland, John.
• Bruton, John.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Liam.
• Carey, Donal.
• Collins, Edward.
• Conlon, John F.
• Cooney, Patrick M.
• Corr, James.
• Cosgrave, Liam T.
• Cosgrave, Michael J.
• Crowley, Frank.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Deasy, Martin A.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Dukes, Alan.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• FitzGerald, Alexis.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Fleming, Brian.
• Governey, Des.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hussey, Gemma.
• Keating, Michael.
• Kelly, John.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• L'Estrange, Gerry.
• McGinley, Denis.
• Manning, Maurice.
• Markey, Bernard.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Molony, David.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Naughten, Liam.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
• O'Brien, William.
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• O'Toole, Paddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Quinn, Ruairí
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, Patrick J.
• Spring, Dick.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Treacy, Seán.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá Deputies B. Ahern and Briscoe; Níl. Deputies Seán Barrett and Taylor.

Question declared carried.

Briscoe, Ben.Browne, Sean.Burke, Raphael P.Byrne, Hugh.Byrne, Seán.Callanan, John.Calleary, Seán.Colley, George.Conaghan, Hugh.Connolly, Ger.Coughlan, Clement.Cowen, Bernard.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Francis.Faulkner, Pádraig.Filgate, Eddie.Fitzgerald, Gene.Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South-Central).Fitzsimons, Jim.Flynn, Pádraig.Foley, Denis.French, Seán.Gallagher, Denis.Gallagher, Pat Cope.Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.Gibbons, Jim.Greogory-Independent, Tony.Harney, Mary.

Haughey, Charles J.Hilliard, Colm.Hyland, Liam.Kitt, Michael P.Lawlor, Liam.Leyden, Terry.Loughnane, Bill.Lynch, Michael.Lyons, Denis.McCarthy, Seán.McEllistrim, Tom.MacSharry, Ray.Meaney, Tom.Morley, P.J.Murphy, Ciarán P.Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).O'Dea, William G.O'Donoghue, Martin.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Kennedy Michael.O'Leary, John.O'Malley, Desmond.Power, Paddy.Reynolds, Albert.Tunney, Jim.Walsh, Joe.Walsh, Seán.Wilson, John P.Woods, Michael.

Disagreement to Seanad amendment reported.

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it that it is agreed the Seanad be informed that the Dáil has disagreed its amendment and desires that the Seanad should not insist on it.