asked the Taoiseach the progress made to date in drawing up the National Economic and Social Plan.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - National Economic and Social Plan.
1.
Work is well advanced on the drafting of the Government's National Economic Plan.
Will the individual national economic organisations be consulted about the content of the plan prior to its publication?
Yes. Arrangements have been under way to keep in touch with most of the organisations concerned from a very early date. For instance, we are already in touch with the Congress and the employers about the content of the plan.
Will the Taoiseach say if the plan will represent a realistic assessment of the likely evolution of the economy on the basis of current policy rather than a hypothetical presentation of what might happen if everything in the garden was much rosier than it is, as was the case with the proposals of the Fianna Fáil Government in 1977 and thereafter?
The intention is that the plan will be realistic.
Are the planners having an easy time preparing this plan when they find the Government making very major alterations in their budget proposals, with severe deficit implications? In other words, is it a rolling plan to take account of these U-turns?
I find that interjection — because it is more an interjection than a question—very interesting considering Deputy Kelly was a member of a Government which put a budget before the people and then proceeded to alter it in every major detail during the course of the general election campaign and subsequently.
That is not so.
Who is drawing up the plan?
That is a very good question and I am glad the Deputy asked it, as distinct from these other tendentious interjections. There will be a steering subcommittee of the Cabinet responsible for the preparation of the plan—broadly speaking the economic Minister—and working to that subcommittee there will be a steering committee consisting of experts, and there will be various subcommittees dealing with other aspects of it.
Who will draw this together, the Department of the Taoiseach or the Department of Finance?
There will be a steering committee responsible for the plan and they will report to the Cabinet subcommittee and ultimately to the Government.
The Taoiseach will appreciate that somebody will have to physically write it and bring it together. Will that be done in the Department of the Taoiseach or in the Department of Finance? Who is chairing the steering committee?
In so far as they are working directly to the Government, this will be done in the Department of the Taoiseach, but all the relevant economic Departments are contributing to the plan.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Has the Taoiseach consulted, or does he propose to consult, farming organisations in connection with the plan? If the answer is yes, might I suggest that he have a look at agriculture on a regional basis with particular reference to the poorer and underprivileged areas?
I will gladly accept that suggestion.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Has the Taoiseach consulted the agricultural interests?
They will be consulted. From memory, I think the process of consulting is already in train but, if it is not, it is the intention to consult them fully. I accept that the Deputy's suggestion is very useful and helpful and I am very grateful for it.
(Cavan-Monaghan): In view of the fact that the Taoiseach said the preparation of the plan is well under way, does he not think it would be advisable to consult the interests concerned, such as the agricultural interests, before the plan sets a pattern?
The two go parallel. As the plan develops all organisations which have a worthwhile input into the plan will be fully consulted and any input they wish to put forward will be accepted.
(Cavan-Monaghan): The two seem to be inconsistent.
The Deputy is confusing the two points —one is the preparation of the plan and the other is the process of consultation.
Who is the chairperson of the steering committee and when will the plan be published?
Internal arrangements of this sort are not usually disclosed, but the secretary of the Department of the Taoiseach will chair the steering committee. We have set ourselves a target of having the plan ready within three months.
From now?
Yes.
First, is the Taoiseach aware that his reply to Deputy Fitzpatrick is difficult to reconcile with his statement this morning when he said that in the preparation of the plan the committee will consult the representatives of various bodies, including farmers. He seems to be confusing the order of events. Second, does he appreciate the significance of the question I asked at the outset about whether it would be a realistic plan, because his speech this morning seemed to cast doubts on this, when he said that he would expect the views of the community as a whole on what our objectives for economic expansion should be, and later he said that this plan would chart the course of economic development over the next few years. What should be, and what is likely to be, are two different things. I am sure the Taoiseach appreciates this. Will he give an assurance that the assumptions on which the plan is based will be realistic, and based on present policies with an indication of the changes in policies required to achieve better results?
I think I have dealt with all the points raised by Deputy FitzGerald. A very important part of this whole exercise will be that the Leader of the Opposition and others should refrain from their constant refrain of denigrating our economy, trying to do damage to our public finances, and trying to injure our credit at home and abroad.
That is not a reply. It is tendentious and irrelevant to the question I asked. I noticed that first of all the Taoiseach hesitated as to what to say, looked for advice, and then realised it was not available to him, rapidly enough.
The Deputy is getting childish.
He then gave an incoherent reply in a sentence which made no sense at all, and then proceeded to make political remarks. That does not suggest to me that he knows much about what he is planning in regard to the plan. He said in his speech this morning that he is enlisting the expert assistance of the Economic and Social Research Institute and other research bodies. Can he tell us what form that will take, and what degree of responsibility the institute will carry for the projections in the plan and the assumptions on which the plan will be based?
I do not understand the question. It is too long. It is a rigmarole.
I will repeat it in that case. The Taoiseach is enlisting the assistance of the Economic and Social Research Institute. To what extent will the assumptions on which the plan is based and the projections in the plan be the responsibility of the institute and carry their Imprimatur?
There are two primary institutes concerned. One is the ESRI and the other is the NESC. The advice, help, assistance and guidance of both those institutes will be sought and, no doubt, will be readily forthcoming. The final decisions with regard to the plan will be political decisions.
Quite.
It will be the responsibility of the Government to decide on the final content, objectives, and so on, of the plan.
These bodies will be brought in to give it a respectable gloss.
Do the terms of reference given to the planners by the Government include the establishment of a timetable for the phasing out of the current deficit?
The plan will, of course, have due regard to the proper ordering of our public finances.
That is not quite what I asked. Were they given specific instructions to make recommendations which the Government would then adopt as their own in regard to the elimination of our current budget deficit? Yes or no?
The plan will have in it as an essential element the planning of our public finances for the duration of the plan.
Does the plan include multi-annual Government budgets as envisaged by the previous Government? Will there be some form of programme budgeting for different departmental Estimates so that we will get an idea of the commitment to the different programmes some years ahead? This is essential if we are to retain the confidence of overseas investors in our economy.
Yes, I accept that programme budgeting is important. It will not be included in the plan, as such, but naturally projections of the type which will be covered by programme budgeting will be included in the plan.
A final supplementary from Deputy Michael Noonan.
(Limerick East): Is the plan being drawn up on the lines of a plan with specific social and economic targets, together with the means to achieve these targets? Is it a looser type of economic programming rather than planning which would represent the aspirations of the Taoiseach and his party rather than the specific means and ends towards achieving economic development?
It will merely be a plan which will lay down the guidelines and the framework within which economic decisions, financial decisions and social policy decisions will be taken during the next three or four years.
That is the target.
Will the plan include some proper policy for the financing of local authorities who are starved for finance at present and cannot provide the services which they have a statutory obligation to provide?
Yes, the financing of local authorities will be a very important element of the plan as part of the overall ordering of the public finances.
Will the social aspect of the plan take account of the need to build sufficient houses for the homeless in Ireland, and particularly in County Donegal? Will it also take into account the high rate of unemployment, particularly in County Donegal? Will it at last give the Taoiseach an opportunity to build the 500 houses he promised to build during the by-election and which have still not been built?
What did I do during the by-election?
I have three questions. Will the plan take into consideration the need to build sufficient houses for the homeless in this State, and I am speaking in particular about the homeless in County Donegal? Will it take into account job creation for the unemployed in the State, and particularly in County Donegal where we have the highest unemployment rate in Europe? Will it give the Taoiseach an opportunity to fulfil one of the promises he made during the by-election in 1980 to build 500 houses in County Donegal? Donegal County Council advertised those houses for building but did not get the money to build them?
A comprehensive housing programme will be an essential part of the plan, of course.
That is not an answer to my question.
Deliberately.
Will the houses which were promised during the by-election in Donegal be built? Donegal County Council spent money on advertising them. They took a full page in the local papers for a fortnight.
Will the Taoiseach publish the advice given to him by the ESRI and the NESC prior to making a final decision on the plan?
No, it will not work that way. The ESRI will be fully involved in the preparation of the plan from the beginning. It will not be a question of their advising on the plan. They will be involved completely in its preparation.
And take responsibility for it.
The responsibility for it will be the responsibility of the Government. I know that, when Deputy FitzGerald was Taoiseach, he tried to place responsibility on others as much as possible. This Government will accept their responsibilities fully.
I am concerned about the integrity and independence of the ESRI.
What about the ridiculous three economists on whom the Deputy tried to fob off responsibility for wages policy? Does the Deputy remember that? If I had been responsible for that disaster I would not dare ask a question in this House on economic matters for two years.