Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jun 1982

Vol. 337 No. 2

Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies: Motion.

Minister for the Public Service (Mr. Gene Fitzgerald)

I move:

(1) That a Select Committee consisting of 7 members of Dáil Éireann (none of whom shall be a member of the Government or a Minister of State) be appointed to be joined with a Select Committee to be appointed by Seanad Éireann to form a Joint Committee (which shall be called the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies) to examine the Reports and Accounts and overall operational results of State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities referred to in Schedule A hereto and the trading and/or commercial aspects of the Reports and Accounts and overall operational results of the State-sponsored body referred to in Schedule B hereto and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas and make recommendations where appropriate.

(2) That, after consultation with the Joint Committee, the Minister for the Public Service with the agreement of the Minister for Finance may include from time to time the names of further State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities in the Schedules and, with the consent of the Joint Committee and the Minister for Finance, may delete from the Schedules the names of any bodies which he considers no longer to be State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities.

(3) That, if so requested by a State-sponsored body, the Joint Committee shall refrain from publishing confidential information regarding the body's activities and plans.

(4) That the Joint Committee shall have power to send for persons, papers and records and, subject to the consent of the Minister for the Public Service, to engage the services of persons with specialist or technical knowledge to assist it for the purpose of particular enquiries.

(5) That the Joint Committee, previous to the commencement of business, shall elect one of its members to be Chairman, who shall have only one vote.

(6) That all questions in the Joint Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes the question shall be decided in the negative.

(7) That the Joint Committee shall have power to print and publish from time to time minutes of evidence taken before it together with such related documents as it thinks fit.

(8) That every report which the Joint Committee proposes to make under this Order shall on adoption by the Joint Committee be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas forthwith whereupon the Joint Committee shall be empowered to print and publish such report together with such related documents as it thinks fit.

(9) That 4 members of the Joint Committee shall form a Quorum of whom at least 1 shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and at least 1 shall be a member of Seanad Éireann.

Schedule A

Aer Lingus, Teoranta

Aerlinte Éireann, Teoranta

Aer Rianta, Teoranta

The Agricultural Credit Corporation, Limited

Arramara Teoranta

Bord na Móna

British & Irish Steam Packet Company Limited

Ceimicí, Teoranta

Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann, Teoranta

Córas Iompair Éireann

Electricity Supply Board

Fóir Teoranta

Industrial Credit Company, Limited

The Irish Gas Board

Irish Life Assurance Company Limited

The Irish National Petroleum Corporation Limited

The Irish National Stud Company, Limited

Irish Shipping Limited

Irish Steel Holdings Limited

Min Fhéir (1959) Teoranta

National Building Agency Limited

Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta

Óstlanna Iompair Éireann Teoranta

Radio Telefís Éireann

Voluntary Health Insurance Board.

Schedule B

Údarás na Gaeltachta.

As Deputies are aware, some weeks ago we debated an expediency motion and a similar motion was debated in the Seanad. This motion is purely a formality to establish the select committee.

Mr. De Rossa

I understand from the terms of the motion that it is likely that a representative of The Workers Party or the Independents will not be able to participate in this Committee because of the numbers involved. I understand from the Journal Office that it would be necessary to have 13 members on the committee to enable a representative of The Workers Party and the Independents to take part. This committee is most important and I do not think we should be excluded. I ask the Minister if the position is as I set out and, if so, will he extend the numbers on the committee?

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

The membership is normally a matter for the Whips to arrange between them but in view of the question raised by the Deputy I will examine what can be done in the circumstances. I am sorry I cannot give the Deputy an immediate answer but I will certainly consider the point raised by him.

Dr. FitzGerald

In the last Dáil this problem arose and in one of two cases the Government — in fact my party — ceded one of our places on the committee to enable the Independent group to be represented. The precedent is there and the Minister will find it. The Minister will have no difficulty in making arrangements to have one of the Fianna Fáil places given to Sinn Féin.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

The Deputy can rest assured of our good disposition towards the request.

Mr. Gallagher

(Waterford): In view of the Minister's answer and considering that he is favourably disposed towards our request, how soon may we anticipate a reply?

The Taoiseach

We will look into the matter immediately.

Mr. Higgins

I should like to ask the Taoiseach in view of recent publicity attached to Údarás na Gaeltachta——

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not on the Order of Business. We are dealing now with item No. 1.

Mr. Higgins

Then my question may more appropriately be directed to the Minister for Finance. In view of the recent publicity surrounding Údarás na Gaeltachta, would it not be more appropriate to move them from Schedule B to Schedule A? I think this would answer a number of the questions that are exercising the public mind in relation to this body. That is within item No. 1. The Minister has said it is a formality that this be accepted. I am suggesting that in view of recent events it is important that an tÚdarás be moved from Schedule B to Schedule A.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

I said it was a formality simply because this was debated a few weeks ago, as was a similar motion debated in the Seanad. Probably that was the more appropriate time for a debate on the placing of certain companies in the schedules. The position is that the expediency motion has been passed by both Houses and out of the formal motion establishing the committee the Dáil committee is now before us. I suggest to the Deputy that Members will have an ample opportunity in that committee to enable them to consider what changes they wish to make in regard to Údarás na Gaeltachta or any other body.

Mr. J. Bruton

There is a problem with regard to parts (1) and (2) of the motion. The Minister will note that it is possible to include in the terms of examination of the committee bodies that are not primarily trading or commercial if they are in the second schedule. The committee will be empowered to examine the trading and/or commercial aspects and overall operational results which might well include matters that have nothing to do with commercial considerations.

This means that this body could be extended to include bodies that are wholly non-commercial within the terms of paragraph (1) but paragraph (2), which is the part of the resolution which actually allows them to add additional bodies, refers solely to bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities. The reason I am raising this is that my party and I feel that there should be an examination of State-sponsored bodies that are not commercial. Commercial bodies governed by the discipline of profit and loss, as all these bodies are, at least in theory, have already some check on them but State-sponsored bodies which are non-commercial and have no discipline of profit and loss and simply receive money each year from the Exchequer, are even more suitable subjects for an inquiry of this sort than those that are already included.

In view of the somewhat ambiguous terms of the resolution I would like to have clarification from the Minister and the Government as to his and their intentions in regard to either a similar, parallel examination of non-commercial bodies or, alternatively, extending the remit of this committee to include non-commercial bodies. I would like to ask the Minister his intentions in the matter and if he is in favour of the idea of having a similar inquiry in respect of non-commercial bodies. At the last count, I think there were approximately 60 non-commercial State bodies spending between them almost £800 million on behalf of Government Departments which, because they are State-sponsored bodies, may not be the subject of parliamentary questions in this House. There should be some alternative means of inquiry into their activities, particularly when they are spending such large sums of money. Would the Minister consider either extending this committee to include non-commercial bodies or, alternatively, setting up a parallel committee to look at non-commercial bodies?

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

Regarding the establishment of this committee, I take the point raised by the Deputy which refers to commercial State bodies. With regard to non-commercial State bodies, obviously consideration will be given as to whether it would be desirable, possible or advisable to establish such a committee. This committee relates to non-commercial State bodies and the expediency motion was passed by the Dáil and the Seanad. I am quite prepared to examine the Deputy's request with regard to non-commercial State bodies, without any commitment at this stage.

Mr. J. Bruton

Perhaps I should direct my next question to the Taoiseach. Could he say when the Government might consider making a decision on whether a committee should be set up to examine non-commercial bodies? All sides of the House agree on the desirability of such an inquiry. I should like the Taoiseach to indicate his personal interest in the matter in a constructive, non-partisan way.

The Taoiseach

I agree with the Minister concerned, naturally, that these powers of investigation should be extended as much as we can cope with. I suggest to the Deputy that the best thing is to get this committee set up, get it operating and then perhaps we could have an inter-party discussion as to the next step we would take.

Mr. J. Bruton

We do not really need to set up this committee to see how it works to decide whether we will have a similar committee on non-commercial bodies. We already have extensive experience of how this committee works and we have all the material evidence available to make a decision about having a similar, parallel committee.

The Taoiseach

We should put this committee into operation and then have a further discussion on the matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

I hope that means something.

The Taoiseach

I hope so too.

Question put and agreed to.

An Ceann Comhairle

A message will be sent to the Seanad advising it accordingly.