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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jul 1982

Vol. 337 No. 10

Fuels (Control of Supplies) Bill, 1982: Second Stage and Subsequent Stages (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

I want to speak about the Whitegate oil refinery, the effect on fuel prices of the decision to incur future operational losses in the refinery now being taken over and the role of the INPC catering for 35 per cent of oil to the Irish market.

I presume the Minister is familiar with the various consultants' reports in relation to Whitegate. It has been established beyond all reasonable doubt from these authoritative studies that the working capital requirements of the INPC to finance stocks could be anything from £45 million to £70 million. There is also clear evidence available to the Government that the refinery is generally regarded as having a maximum life span of five to seven years. The original figures submitted by the company estimated that operational losses would be not less than £10 million and possibly £20 million per year. It is also evident from studies done that the refinery is technically obsolete, that it uses excess energy in relation to modern refineries and there is a doubt that it would meet the stringent EEC lead contents standards. The refinery is equipped for hydro-skimming and, as such, it would be at a substantial diseconomy of anything from £6, £8, or £10 per tonne compared with most of the advanced European refineries.

These facts were known to the previous Government and they are known to the present Government. The Minister stated that the net effect of the takeover of the refinery and the mandatory uptake on the part of the Irish companies concerned would mean an increase in the cost per gallon of 1½p to 2p. I do not believe that. From the calculations I have done I suggest the lowest increases will be 7p to 8p per gallon and it would not surprise me in the light of INPC operations if it worked out at 16p or 17p for petrol, 10p to 14p for diesel and 7p for heavy fuel. The net effect of the two Government successive policy decisions will have a very serious impact on the economy, industry, and on unemployment and that is very serious. We may have a vis-breaker installed in the plant, I do not know if the Government have given formal sanction to go ahead with that. Presumably it is still desirable but the Minister should state the cost. As he knows, the cost is anything up to $25 million or $28 million. How much is it?

(Dublin South-East): $17 million approximately.

The figures can range from £16 million to £23 million. In terms of what happens in Cork Harbour I would tend to take the upper figure.

Apply it to Knock Airport.

(Dublin South-East): That is what he is doing.

He is damn right to do so.

I want to get on to the stock situation. The Minister maintained that because we are taking over the refinery, automatically the national stock situation is contained and improved and will be maintained. At present we have about 32 to 35 days on average of petrol and 42 days on average of diesel on shore in Ireland. The EEC requirement is 90 days. Now the INPC apparently will take on 35 per cent of stock requirements since it is to be presumed they are responsible for 35 per cent of supply of oil on the Irish market. The net effect of all this is that the INPC take on the major responsibility, the State takes on the major responsibility, and simultaneously we spend £10 million now on the refinery and we have to provide working capital requirements of anything up to £60 million or £70 million a year. Operation losses could be anything from £10 million to £20 million a year. Does it in any way increase or improve the stock situation? It does not. I do not know who devised this crazy strategy.

I hold that the logical way to improve the national security of our country against the effects of a sudden major oil crisis which would affect oil supplies is consciously and deliberately to build up our strategic stocks held in the country of finished products. We should tighten up the regulations to ensure 90 days stocks in the country. I do not think that it can be done by taking over an obsolete refinery and having the burden for 35 per cent of the stock maintenance thrown on the back of the State. The major burden for a 90-day stock level would have to be placed on the oil companies. The Minister has given some figures here, but at least it is a logical placing of the burden on the oil companies, and if they have to expand their tankage in Whitegate — which should be expanded — and if we are to take over the tankage in Whiddy Island — which we should take over — then the companies too will have to spend some capital investment, but it will be spent on something which is tangible, which is there and which will not be closed down in five years. Without question, the reports indicate that Whitegate, if only for safety reasons, would have to be closed down in five years. I would like to get in to some of the equipment there, open it up and have a look at it. I do not think that even that was done before final decisions were taken. Either we do that or we decide to build a new oil refinery. The workers down there are entitled to know exactly what we intend to do. We cannot say that we will open up a refinery, keep it going for five or seven years and close it down because it has to close, it is not operable technologically, technically, equipment-wise, it is not just obsolete but incapable of being run unless one puts £40 million or £50 million of new equipment into it or unless one decides to build a new one which would cost anything from £150 million to £200 million, and you will have to start planning now. Where is that money to come from? Is it from the tax-payer, the price of diesel, the price of petrol, the price of fuel oil?

The Minister has spoken about the constitutionality of what is going on here and about the extent to which it is in conformity with the Treaty of Rome. I have genuine doubts about strategy of this nature being constitutional, about the constitutionality of forcing the oil companies to take up products from Whitegate to the extent of 35 per cent of the market. There is a case to be stated in that regard which I do not want to develop here because I have not the time, but everything in the legislation as now proposed could be challenged successfully in the Court of Justice of the European Communities. Reliance on Article 36 of the Treaty, is, to say the least, rather flimsy. I do not believe that the arguments about national security are tenable at this time.

In short, therefore, the purchase of the oil refinery does not raise the overall level of national oil stocks. Even if we mothballed it, it would not necessarily reduce the level of national stocks because the tankage is there and presumably will retain finished oil products. Likewise, a mandatory 35 per cent uptake by the oil companies of INPC-Whitegate Refinery products does not determine our strategic security of supply situation. It is manifestly evident and must be stressed that even with Whitegate in full production the bulk of our oil requirements are imported in product form.

I do not believe that the INPC will succeed in a more dynamic sufficient throughput in Whitegate than hitherto. I have been looking at the INPC accounts and annual report. In their short career they have lost a good deal of money, taxpayers' money, on the purchase of crude oil at alleged favourable prices from Saudi Arabia. Breaking it down, that allegedly highly efficient refinery is on subsequent sale in the market. Still it lost £2.2 million, £3.2 million, or is it £4 million? It would be interesting to know the exact figure. Are these and future losses to be subsumed into the price of products from Whitegate?

The Minister has said, and I ask the country to examine his statement here very carefully, that the prices ex Whitegate are to be a recovery of the capital, crude oil acquisition, shipment and storage costs and the operational costs in the refinery. All that is to be integrated in the ex Whitegate price. There are some very serious implications in that statement which go away beyond 1p or 2p. They go into double figures. The price increases consequent on this strategy will be borne by Irish industry, the private and public sector users and the public at large. The full implications of the decision have not yet dawned on all politicians and the public at large.

I have two other points. Why then was the refinery purchased in principle by the previous Government? I have no doubt that the Minister will answer that question. The only reason the refinery was purchased and a decision of that nature taken, as far as I can perceive — and perhaps Deputy Kelly can enlighten us further — was that Fianna Fáil had made a promise in the general election to do it anyway, so the capitalists of the day decided that if it was to happen they might as well try to get some credit for it. If that is the way you run a country, then God help it.

Hear, hear.

This episode clearly underlines the absolute need of Governments to develop some responsible sense of national corporate investment criteria of a political nature, since all the decisions are ultimately political, in the use of public moneys, in planning long-term State investment and in having the political courage not to be swayed by short-term political expedients.

I have often been critical of my own leader but on this issue the former Tánaiste, Deputy O'Leary, was courageous. He held the line for quite a long time and I know Deputy Kelly has such strong views on this matter and I think he was correct on this occasion. On that basis I do not wish to cavil at the efforts of the leader of this party to keep a sense of responsibility on this matter, but I suggest that if anybody refers to yesterday's Financial Times in respect of standard prices, market prices and spot prices and tries to work out what the INPC are to charge the companies concerned and considers what the likely throughput at Whitegate is, he might well conclude that as a result of what is being decided here this evening the price of petrol will increase by at least 10p or perhaps even 16p per gallon while the price of diesel will increase by 7p or 8p per gallon and the price of heavy fuel by from 3p to 5p per gallon. I am putting down a very big marker in so far as this whole exercise is concerned because, as I said last evening, like NET and Irish Steel we will be haunted in this case, too, in the years ahead. I can visualise a situation in which somebody somewhere will be talking about another £200 million for another new oil refinery at Whitegate. Where will we get that sort of money? What is to happen to this unfortunate country of ours in the context of the management of our economy? We have a great deal to answer for. The Minister and I concur in many respects, but I will be interested to hear what he has to say in replying to the debate. There is no political kudos for any of us in this unfortunate exercise.

I compliment Deputy Desmond on that part of his speech that I heard. While it would not have been in order to cheer him, I wanted to do so. I agree with many of his remarks. As a Member of the Labour Party, the Deputy deserves credit for having had the courage to express those remarks without any ideological wrapping.

The Bill is expressed to be an amendment of the 1971 Fuels (Control of Supplies) Act, but, as Deputy Barry said yesterday, when the 1971 Act was introduced as a Bill by Deputy Lenihan, who was then Minister for Transport and Power, it was promoted openly as an emergency measure to take account of future emergencies. The then Minister said fairly, in those days more than ten years ago, that he sincerely hoped the legislation "would go into cold storage". I am referring to column 113 of Volume 252 of the Official Report. The Minister spoke repeatedly in his opening and closing speeches of an "emergency". Clearly the Act was aimed at dealing with a situation caused by a shortage of fuel.

The Bill before us is aimed at something quite different. I will not raise a constitutional alarm about it but it is undesirable that legislation which was intended originally to cover a possible emergency created by a shortage of fuel should be used as a vehicle for something different. As described by Deputy Desmond, this Bill is no more than a Bill that has resulted from the exigencies not of the common good but of the 1982 general election. The fear and the emergency that was in people's minds on both sides of this unfortunate house was not that fuel would become scarce, because presumably if there was a shipping shortage, the supplies of crude as well as of refined oil would be affected, but the fear that the voters around the district affected by the Whitegate refinery might turn and rend whatever party could be represented to them by their opponents as having let them down. I am sorry to say that what Deputy Desmond has said is true. I am ashamed to have to say that. It is one of the reasons for my speaking from the third bench and also why I hope that in the years to come forces in this House will reorganise themselves in such a way that such an event will no longer be possible and that no lies will be told to put a face on what is being done now.

Having said that, it is only fair to say that I recognise that there are some obvious concrete and stateable reasons in favour of having our own oil refinery though that is a view that I do not share. However, there are some such arguments and there are people who believe sincerely in this concept. It is a view that is shared obviously by officials in the Department. Therefore, I must not be thought to be hitting out all around me. But what I very much doubt is whether at a time of financial stringency those arguments should outweigh any other. In particular, and this is a technical matter, I doubt very much as a lawyer whether it is proper or good practice to use an Act brought into law originally for one purpose as the vehicle for something quite different —"let us have the refinery and let us force the companies who operate to buy the products at whatever prices it may suit us to charge them. Let us forbid them to do business otherwise." Regardless of what face the Minister may try to put on it, that is not part of an emergency. There may be people on my side of the House who would have been willing to read the speech that the Minister has read for us on this Bill but this House is not about the business of using one Act as a shell or a vehicle for something quite different.

As the Minister has made clear, the Bill aims at what the accompanying explanatory memorandum describes as "mandatory disposal". The use of that phrase is simply a pompous way of saying that we will force someone to buy something he does not want, or that we will force him to buy something that he may want, but at a price which he is not willing to pay and which he never would pay on a free open market.

If I were a visitor from some other part of the English-speaking, common-law world and were shown this Bill and asked what it is all about, and if I were given also a copy of the 1971 Act with which to compare the Bill, I should be quite foxed as to the purpose of the Bill. I say this because in the business end of the Bill, that is, section 6 which substitutes various provisions for the old section 2 of the 1971 Act, all that is provided is power for the Minister to regulate, not just the "supply and distribution" of fuel, as was the case in the 1971 Act, but the "acquisition, supply, distribution and marketing" of fuel.

The marketing of cabbages is regulated in the Dublin market. Undoubtedly the seller must produce, by reason of various by-laws, his produce in a clean and healthy condition. Likewise in the fish market one would not be found offering for sale fish that was verminous or which was in any other way a hazard to health. On a reasonable construction of the situation it could be said that the authority who are enforcing these by-laws are "regulating the acquisition and marketing" of the products. However, a visitor from, say, Australia or New Zealand could well read with the aid of a magnifying glass the Bill before us and not guess that what was in view here was "mandatory disposal". There is not a line in this Bill which says that the acquisition and marketing is to be regulated in such a way that the unwilling purchasers, the unwilling people necessarily present in the market, are to be forced to go home with a load, as the case may be, of cabbage or fish or, as in the case of this Bill, a particular kind of fuel; not a word. I want to warn the Minister — it is only a technical point — that he may find that what we are enacting here is no more than a piece of paper with no legal effect. I object very much to hole-in-corner legislation which, only in its accompanying Explanatory Memorandum, has the guts to say that what we are at here is to force somebody to buy something he does not want at a price he does not want to pay. But, when we produce the actual Bill, there is not a word in it which makes that intention plain. I will laugh if the Minister subsequently falls on his nose when the court, the High Court or Supreme Court before which oil companies may challenge this legislation, says this Bill entitles him to "regulate" the marketing and the acquisition of fuel oil, but does not entitle him to force somebody to buy his oil, or the oil of his semi-State body and nobody else's so far as concerns 35 per cent of their offtake.

I have a couple of minutes left only and I do not want to cut in on Deputy Lyon's time. I will make them as quickly as I can. If this Bill is enacted and is not thrown out the window for the purely technical drafting reason to which I have adverted, if no other objection were available against it, and it can be used to force companies to take 35 per cent of their supply from Whitegate at a price to be determined by the INPC, what essentially is now happening is that the companies are being, in a kind of way, subject to a breach of their ordinary rights of property. I want to make it clear — as I have had to do on frequent occasions here before when dealing with fuel questions — I am not a shareholder in any oil company, I have not been lobbied by any oil company. Indeed if I were lobbied by them I would treat them as I treat all lobbies. I have no interest in oil companies, good bad or indifferent, direct or indirect. But oil companies, like any other kind of a company or individual, have rights here. When they find themselves forced to take a particular product at a price they do not want to pay, or a product which they do not want, and if they are not allowed to recoup that price in what they charge to their ultimate consumer, then they are being, in part, expropriated. If I have not misunderstood the current Supreme Court jurisprudence on this question, they are being unjustly attacked in their property rights.

It may be that that unjust attack can be mitigated or perhaps rendered entirely harmless by permitting these oil companies to charge the ultimate consumer enough money by way of the ultimate price for the product as to recoup them for the loss which otherwise they would have suffered if forced to take the Minister's oil at the Minister's price. Therefore, as Deputy Barry Desmond said — in far less words than I have felt obliged to use — the suffering Irish industry and the suffering Irish public will be paying the price of this measure. That may be so. If that happens, I want to say this — quite apart from the obvious implications for industry and the ordinary consumer being forced to pay more, implications which will spread throughout the economy in terms of inflation, and the Minister need not deceive himself about that — we will then be witnessing a detrimental effect of a partial monopoly, because a monopoly means that you dictate the terms of the market.

The Minister is proposing now only to dictate 35 per cent of the market, the terms of 35 per cent of oil sales in this country. But I can see some other Minister oiling into this House and saying: I think the time is ripe and it would be appropriate, all things being considered, to make that 35 per cent 45 per cent or, for all I know, 55 per cent, when we would be creeping up and up towards a situation in which there would be a monopoly or near monopoly. A monopoly under our law and Constitution — introduced by the founder of Deputy Reynolds' party, for which all those who came after him are all too willing to take credit, although they do not want to take responsibility for the darker, shadowy sides of the Constitution — is not defensible. A monopoly is not defensible here unless it operates in the public interest. And who is to say that the public interest is served if we end up with a situation in which the ordinary consumer is paying 10 pence, or whatever, a gallon more for the product merely in order to keep the large political parties' noses clean over a situation which might have developed in the east of County Cork during the 1982 general election? I do not want to be part of any such decision. Naturally I cannot escape the collective responsibility which I bore as a Member of the Government which initiated this, and I do not seek to escape it, but I now do not want to bear that responsibility. I want to warn the Minister opposite, who is now in a situation of sharing collective responsibility for what is happening here this evening, that he is stepping into an embryonic monopoly situation which, if the courts here remain free and independent, and operate as they have been up to now, may leave him defending a situation which is not in the public interest, and defending it with no weapons worth talking about.

The Deputy has one minute remaining.

There are just two last points I wanted to make — a further objection which is of a constitutional kind is this: suppose the oil companies take the line that if they are forced to take even 35 per cent of oil products at an inflated price — larger than they would have had to pay abroad — and that they, therefore, have to raise their market price and that, therefore, their share of the market generally sinks because the extra price induces people to switch to coal, timber or God knows what; suppose, in other words, it damages their business, even if they are allowed to pass on the price to the consumer, how will the Minister reply to that? What argument will he put up to the High Court in response to that, that he is damaging and injuring their business in order to pursue a political objective?

Finally, let me say this — I am very suspicious, and every Member of this House with 60 years' experience behind him ought to be similarly suspicious, of anything which puts a price-fixing power into the hands of a semi-State body. The INPC's price for the product which the Minister proposes to force companies to take to the extent of 35 per cent of their distribution, will be fixed partly in relation to their cost. When did a semi-State body ever keep an eye on its costs as jealously as a private company with shareholders has had to do? When did that happen? What check will there be on the INPC, which has already lost, I know it is only peanuts, only peanuts of millions of pounds, but some millions of pounds since its establishment only a few years ago? Who will keep a check on their operating costs, on their efficiency, on their notions of extravagance, on their notions of economy? Who will prevent those costs, over and above what private enterprise would have developed, being fed into the ultimate cost to the consumer?

Acting Chairman

I am sorry, Deputy, I must chop you at this point.

I know, Sir. I hope I have not left Deputy Lyons short.

I should like to refer first to the statement of Deputy Barry Desmond in the House last evening when he referred to the white elephants of Cork Harbour. I deplore that reference being applied to Whitegate and other industries and activities in Cork Harbour. I was very anxious to hear him, as he promised he would, dissect the white elephant of Whitegate from tusks to tail. I came in especially to hear that dissection which I did not hear. Perhaps he had second thoughts about it. Perhaps my colleague from Cork North-Central or his colleague from Cork South-Central in the Labour Party advised him not to be carrying on with that kind of stuff about Cork Harbour.

I would ask him: is he now saying that his own leader, the leader of the Labour Party, who was Minister for Energy in the short-lived Coalition Government of 1980 to 1981, was wrong in his decision, collectively taken, to take over the oil refinery, the decision in principle, after many months of questioning by us Deputies from Cork as to what were their intentions? They kept stalling us telling us about consultants' reports they were waiting for. However, with the onset of the general election things changed. It has been stated tonight that the taking over of the oil refinery by the State was a promise made by Fianna Fáil candidates, or aspiring TDs, in the constituencies around Cork Harbour but I wonder if Deputy Kelly is dissociating himself from the statements of his colleague, Deputy Hegarty of the East Cork constituency. Deputy Hegarty indicated to all and sundry in east Cork at the church gates and elsewhere that he would see to it that the oil refinery was kept in operation. I deplore this running away from collective responsibility and commitment by colleagues at party level and the endeavour to shift the responsibility for their decisions in principle to somebody else.

In the mid-fifties it was realised that there was a need for a refinery and the Government agreed to the refinery commencing operations in 1959. The Government gave it significant tariff protection to assist its setting up. I contend that the decision was the correct one but I deplore the fact that the refinery was deprived of investment for many years. That should not have been allowed to happen. While it was happening the shareholders, the international oil companies, were investing elsewhere. If we looked at the possible alternative to the purchase of the Whitegate refinery by the State we would see that we would be depending for the supply of oil, and its by-products, totally on those same people who did not invest in the refinery. Whatever about the technical aspects of the Bill outlined by previous speakers — I am not a lawyer and I am not qualified to go into that matter in detail — it is my view that it is a necessary consequence of the decision to purchase the refinery.

I am pleased that the 250 jobs — 150 directly employed and upwards of 100 in ancillary services — will be saved. The workforce in that refinery are highly skilled and dedicated. The refinery was virtually free of industrial unrest through the years. There has been a commitment by the employees to keep the refinery going and that is to be commended. What better way to recognise that than for the State to agree to taking it over, as the Government propose. Money should be invested in it so that it can be upgraded and the running down that was allowed to happen, halted. This move by the Government will keep a valuable work-force in their jobs. Important though that is — it is vitally important that those jobs be maintained — I contend that the decision to purchase the refinery by the State is of significant importance in the context of national independence. It is the only refinery we have and it was essential that it be purchased by the State.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the speakers last night when they pointed out that we needed additional time to discuss this topic. I should like to make it clear that I did not bring this Bill in in the last week or two with the intention of forcing it through the House in one hour-and-a-half. The Bill has been available for three weeks and was on the Order Paper but was not taken for one reason or another. It is a debatable topic and there are many sides to the arguments but they must be put in perspective. In the short time available to me I will try to deal with the arguments made last night and tonight. I accept that oil companies have rights but when we are talking about a commodity such as oil which is the lifeblood of the economy I do not think it is fair to compare it to the selling of a cabbage or sweets. We are dealing with a more important commodity which must be looked at in the context of the national economy.

I should like to ask Members opposite to cast their minds back to 1979, and before, when there were queues for petrol and oil. What would be the cost to the national economy if we were left without oil for a number of days or one week?

That emerged from Deputy O'Malley personally taking on the oil companies.

Deputies opposite should put their arguments in perspective. I do not deny the legal ability of Deputy Kelly, or his ability to debate the constitutionality of Bills, but, in fairness, he should put all arguments in relation to the matter before the House on the table. It was strange to listen to Deputy Desmond referring to this as a white elephant when he was junior Minister in the last Government who took a decision in principle to buy the refinery. It was surprising to hear him turning his face away from that decision. It is strange ideology coming from the Labour Party. In fact, it is strange ideology coming from the two speakers opposite. They may have arguments that are worth listening to but they should practice what they preach. Some weeks ago in the House those Deputies trouped through the division lobbies in favour of nationalising a textile plant and that does not bear any comparison to the decision the House is being asked to take this evening. Yet, they are prepared to turn their heads away from that. I say, let the people of the country judge us on our statements here. That is what democracy is all about.

I do not doubt the ability of Deputy Kelly in regard to the legal position. This was a difficult decision in principle for the last Government and it is equally difficult for the present Government, and to try to equate it simply with election promises is not on. The Deputy is being simplistic about the facts and I do not want the position to be misinterpreted——

What did the consultants say? What did they recommend?

I will tell the Deputy when I come to it. The Deputy is far from reality and I want to put him and Deputy Desmond right about the life span of the refinery. For a start, the INPC, when they took over the refinery, clearly stated that the Whitegate refinery was one of the best maintained throughout Europe, that its minimum life span would be about ten years——

The INPC are not in the business of consultancy.

If the Deputies over there and over there decide to go on any road, they will follow it to the end. I will give the facts and let them speak for themselves. The life span of the refinery would not be seven years but at least ten years with the possibility that it will be 15 years. I have no doubt that in present circumstances it will last that length of time. I have told the House what the consultants say about it.

What did they say?

The most recent advice I have following the opening up of equipment in the start-up maintenance is that a life of at least ten years to 15 years can be safely projected and that this can be considerably extended at modest cost. The decision to amend the 1971 Fuels Act was a deliberate one. There is a flavour of emergency attaching to the Act, but there was also a deliberate decision at the time not to use the word "emergency" when the Bill was being drafted. I am satisfied after looking at both sides of the argument, that the advantages of using the 1971 Act outweigh other considerations. I believe this kind of legislation to be in the public interest and the common good, that it is fully justified by Irish law and that it is in compliance with the Treaty of Rome. I say this on the best advice available to me. Deputy Kelly is a legal man but anyone who puts up the arguments advanced here by Deputy Kelly is living in a fool's paradise. I am going on the best advice given to me. Of course when it comes to international law and Article 36 of the Treaty of Rome, nobody can give an absolute guarantee, but on the best advice available to me the 35 per cent requirement complies with Article 36 of the Treaty of Rome.

There is, of course, the major requirement of national security. If somebody tells me that the purchase of the refinery was not a question of national security I can only refer him to what happened here before. We have been seeing headlines in the newspapers, articles all over the place, and we have to extract the facts from the morass. I have put all the facts, given to me by the best advice I have, on the table and let the people's judgment prevail at the end of the day.

There has been talk about market prices for oil. I intend to do all in my power to minimise the effect of Whitegate in this area, and a process of consultation about a special price regime for heavy fuel oil is well under way. A final Ministerial order will not be drafted until a wide process of consultation has been completed. When the order comes before the House I will be only too glad to give Deputies detailed explanations. Necessarily, an amelioration for HFO will mean a heavier burden on lighter products. I have said that the cost of Whitegate would be equal to 1½p per gallon on all products for the entire market but I cannot say now on which products and in what proportions it will be applied. I have been saying in my statements that we have been told by the INPC what the real cost of this will be. It is interesting to know that the INPC will be able to refine the crude at Whitegate at a lower processing cost than they had been getting on quotation from virtually any other refinery in Europe.

What do the independent consultants say?

When we talk about the price, David Kennedy, for instance, said only a couple of weeks ago that the cost would be only 1½p. We must take the reality of the situation. I do not want to base everything on consultants. I am basing my statements——

Would the Minister tell us what did the consultants say?

I did not interrupt the Deputy. I have been basing my statements on the best possible advice. In relation to what we should do in regard to investment, Deputy Desmond asked me what the right investment options are. The first one is the vis-breaker which would cost $17 million to $18 million. The second investment option is a coking plant at a cost of between $40 million and $50 million with a pay back period of three years. Incidentally, the pay back period for the vis-breaker would be two years. The first option would give better production but the coking plant would give even more. The installation of a catalytic cracker would give the best refining levels. The original cost of this would be in the region of $150 million. Of course there are technical problems.

The Minister has not yet told us what the consultants have said.

Would Deputy Kelly object so strenuously if I were to tell him that this would mean the cost of ESB current will come down? He has come in here with his one-sided argument to prove that he can solve all the problems of the economy.

Of course I have not. Will the Minister tell us what the independent consultants said?

They amaze me over there every day of the week. We know there was a plan in 1959——

It was in 1956.

We also know that when Whitegate was established in 1959 there was a premium to be paid, the same as I have to pay a premium on my life or the Deputy pays a premium on his life. The premium in 1959 was 1d per gallon, and if we want to reflect back on what the price of petrol was at that time it was approximately between 11d and 12d a gallon, so the premium represented approximately 9 per cent or 9½ per cent of the price of a gallon of petrol at that time. Now I want to relate that to today's terms and bring it right up to date. If anybody tries to tell me that the price of petrol is going to go up by 9 per cent or 10 per cent per gallon I would say they are absolutely foolish to make that assumption. The wild exaggerated assumptions made by Deputy Desmond of 20p to 30p a gallon are no more valid than some to the other figures that have been tossed around this House since this Bill came in. I have not finally decided yet, but if I were to exclude heavy fuel oil and not put any cost on to it, the premium would not be anything like what Deputy Desmond says. If I were to exclude the light fuel oil and put it all on petrol, it would not even reach the figures that Deputy Desmond talks about. All the various options are being examined and when I make my final decision I have to strike the right balance between industry and consumers and so on, realising the fundamental principles of keeping our industry competitive and looking after and keeping down ESB prices which effect every consumer and the price of petrol. I have to make a fair and balanced decision at the end of the day. That is exactly what it is going to be, and Deputies should not be pulling figures out of the air that bear no relation to the reality. The figures are there and are available to us.

Will the Minister publish the independent consultant's study? Is the answer yes or no?

I am making my decision here as Minister. I will be responsible to the public for the decisions and actions I take. That is the essence of democracy. If Deputy Kelly wants consultants to run this economy and make up my mind for me, let me tell him that I am not that type of person; I make my own decisions and I will stand over every single one of them and let the public decide at the end of the day whether they want to accept my decisions as being in the best interests of the common good when they were taken and if they had the right balance. Consultants will sometimes produce the results we want them to produce. I have long experience of consultants. I use them to produce facts. But they do not make up my mind for me, and may God forgive me if I ever see the day when I would allow them either to run my business or make my political decisions.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Kelly——

The Minister was let in before his time by Deputy Lyons in order to take the Second Stage and to conduct all the remaining Stages. He has now been haranguing the House for a quarter of an hour and we have to conclude all Stages of this Bill.

Deputy Kelly, would you resume your seat? The Chair has been listening to Deputy Kelly indulging in dialogue and monologues which is not proper to the occasion when the Minister is endeavouring to reply. It is most unusual for Deputy Kelly to misbehave in this fashion.

We have other Stages of this Bill to take in seven minutes.

I am sure the Deputy is intelligent enough to appreciate that his interjections or interruptions have not been encouraging the Minister to brevity. Would the Deputy allow the Minister to continue without interruption?

Quite obviously the truth hurts. They never like to hear it.

Will the Minister not publish the truth? Will he or will he not publish the independent study?

I never stand over misrepresentations, lies or fabrications or anything Deputies like to say over there. I have made deliberate statements in this House and I will stand over them in any form and in any debate that the Deputy likes.

(Interruptions.)

I will come to more fabricated statements about the massive imposition on the Irish taxpayers when we heard Deputy Barry Desmond talking last night about £100 million of taxpayers' money being poured down the drain. I heard Deputy Desmond call out another figure of £45 million to £60 million of taxpayers' money. Let us be honest and spell out exactly what this is.

If the Minister were honest he would publish the independent consultant's report.

This is working capital for a company and it is not taxpayers' money. It is borrowed by INPC as I or anyone else would borrow it in trading in a very volatile business. That is the sort of money that is involved.

Now we will get back to the lovely equation that Deputy Desmond tries to make out about putting in his moth-ball and saying that the cost of storage would not cost this nation or anybody else any more money. Let me inform Deputy Desmond that if we close the Whitegate oil refinery tomorrow morning and do no refining in it at all then, under the obligations in regard to national storage and in the interests of national security, an additional storage package has to be provided. I have also gone through the figures in that respect, and the figure that would be required to put the alternative storage there to make up for the oil that would be refined through Whitegate at any point in time far outweighs the cost of putting Whitegate there in the first instance. The Deputy can do his sums any way he likes but he will get the same answers as me. But let him not take part of the equation and say that is the answer. He should put all the figures down.

(Interruptions.)

I know well what the Deputy is trying to misrepresent here. It is a strange conversion from the ideology that used to be part and parcel of Labour Party policy. It is a pity that other Members are not here to listen to the Deputy. That is the situation. The Deputy's argument falls flat on its face when he talks about providing the adequate storage that would be required. Furthermore, it would take three or four years to get that storage facility put into position and, where goes the national security and the 90 days in the meantime? That is part of the argument that has been advanced here in relation to it. I would love to have a much longer time to go into more of the nitty gritty and the fine detail of it.

Just give us the consultants' report.

It is no use putting out exaggerated newspaper reports. I did not anticipate anything else but that we would hear today all the propaganda about it.

(Interruptions.)

But we must remember one thing. Whitegate oil refinery closed last May. There was always a premium there, the same premium as existed since Whitegate was put in in 1959. It was 1d on a gallon of petrol which cost between 11d and 12d at that time. If all the great men with figures over there put it into today's perspective what figure would they come out with as the equivalent? This nation paid that premium and was happy to pay it. There has to be a premium if we are to talk about security in any form, whether it is one's life or anything else. I never denied that there was a premium. But I am prepared to say openly and honestly that it will be lessened as much as possible in the areas of this economy and this country where this must be done. That premium is there. But it was also there when Whitegate closed last summer. Did anybody see a reduction in the following months? No, we did not. It never came through. So let us be honest about it and say that we have there and we need, for our national security, that element of it. There is a premium to be paid. No one denies it. It has to be lessened to the greatest degree in parts of our economy. That is a decision that has to be made and that is precisely the road I am travelling along. But when we talk about market prices and the price of crude today——

On a point of order, the party Whips agreed that a number of Deputies, including the Minister, would have 15 minutes each to contribute on the Second Stage. There was a formal agreement here and I have a copy of it here. The Minister has now spoken for well over 20 minutes and as a result we have no opportunity of dealing with any comments or asking questions on the remaining Stages of the Bill. If the Minister wants to take it up now to 8.30 and not allow Deputy Kelly to ask one or two questions, that is fair enough——

I just want to put something on the record.

Deputy Desmond appreciates that private arrangements are not subject——

It was called out by your predecessor in the Chair, 15 minutes.

I have endeavoured in the past to indicate the position of the Chair in these matters. Yesterday we had an example of a private arrangement which was made and which was changed within two minutes of its being announced.

There is a copy of it.

These private arrangements are not part of Standing Orders.

Your predecessor called it out.

The Chair endeavours to co-operate with Deputies in any of these arrangements but the Chair is not responsible for them. The Minister has heard the interjection made by Deputy Desmond. I presume it is a valid interjection. Perhaps the Minister is disposed to dealing with Deputy Desmond's question.

(Interruptions.)

I would like to say there was an agreement reached. We all know what agreement was reached here last night and I facilitated that agreement. The agreement handed to me was that the Minister would speak from 8.10 to 8.30 p.m. That was the agreement.

(Dún Laoghaire): There was not agreement between the Whips. It was the request of the Government that time be made available so that most people would get an opportunity to contribute. The Minister is well aware that time was made available for Committee Stage, on which there has been no debate.

That is not my problem. One Government speaker dropped out and did not get any opportunity to speak. I took the matter off the Order Paper three weeks ago and concurred with the arrangements made last night and tonight. I have been most accommodating, and to say otherwise is not in accordance with the facts.

My party welcome the purchase and development of Whitegate oil refinery because the country needs such a refinery.

Has the Deputy a question?

The oil companies are opposed to building a refinery in Dublin.

The Deputy is not in order in making a statement.

They operated Whitegate to their own advantage. This move will not result in an increase in the price of petrol, as has been stated by some people.

Did the Minister indicate that the INPC propose to invest $16 million in a vis-breaker, with a recovery period of two years?

I said these were the options I asked the INPC to examine. The figures on the cost of the vis-breaker and the repayment period have come from my own officials.

Does the Minister maintain that the recovery of the capital investment of $16 million could be within two years?

Definitely. That is the period.

Regarding the coking plant, the Minister mentioned a three-year recovery period.

Approximately three years.

I hope I will be in the House in two years' time.

I wish to ask one question and I am sorry I put it earlier in a disorderly fashion. Will the Minister undertake to make public the report and opinions on this project, not of the INPC, which is a semi-State body and so an interested party, but of the independent consultants who at very heavy public expense were retained to give their views on the potentialities for the retention of the Whitegate oil refinery?

I have no intention of publishing them. It is reported that the economy will turn around in 1983, but I have no intention of publishing the report of the consultants.

In accordance with the Resolution made by the Dáil on 6 July and yesterday, I am putting the question. The question is: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time; that the Bill is hereby agreed to and is reported to the House; that the Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."

Question put and agreed to.
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