Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Feb 1983

Vol. 339 No. 7

Joint Committee on Building Land: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Quinn)

I move:

1. That it is expedient that a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas (which shall be called the Joint Committee on Building Land) consisting of 13 members of Dáil Éireann and 7 members of Seanad Éireann be appointed—

(a) to consider and make recommendations regarding possible legislative and other measures to deal, in the interests of the common good, with the supply and cost of building land (including land within and adjacent to urban areas), having regard, in particular, to:

(i) the Constitution and judgments of the Superior Courts in regard to the relevant articles thereof;

(ii) the Report of the Committee on the Price of Building Land (Prl. 3632);

(iii) tax legislation in relation to profits or gains from dealings in, disposals of, or development of, land;

(iv) the operation of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Acts, 1963 to 1982;

(v) the Local Government (Building Land) Bill, 1982; and

(b) to report on the merits and demerits of any measures considered, with particular reference to:

(i) their constitutionality;

(ii) legal and administrative practicality;

(iii) financial and economic implications;

(iv) likely effects on the cost of housing and on other forms of development.

2. That the Joint Committee shall have power to send for persons, papers and records.

3. That the Joint Committee, previous to the commencement of business, shall elect one of its members to be Chairman, who shall have only one vote.

4. That all questions in the Joint Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes the question shall be decided in the negative.

5. That every report which the Joint Committee proposes to make shall, on adoption by the Joint Committee be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas forthwith whereupon the Joint Committee shall be empowered to print and publish such report together with such related documents as it thinks fit.

6. That 7 members of the Joint Committee shall form a quorum of whom at least 3 shall be members of Dáil Éireann and at least 2 shall be members of Seanad Éireann.

7. That the Joint Committee report before 31st December, 1983."

Mr. Kelly

The problem of the price of building land and the degree to which the value of building land, artificially inflated by factors with which we are familiar, rebounded on house prices has been known to everyone in the country who takes an interest in such things for 13 or 14 years if not longer. At the beginning of the seventies a committee was set up under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Kenny who was certainly among the two or three judges best qualified to judge the legal and constitutional aspects of any legislative attempt to control the price of building land; and the other members were at least as well qualified from technical points of view as any officials or, for that matter, politicians whom I can think of. That committee reported in early 1973, and their report was one of the very first documents which lay before the Government of which Deputy Cosgrave was Taoiseach. It was available to that Government during the four and a half years of their existence. It was available to the Government led partly by Deputy Lynch and partly by Deputy Haughey, for four years between 1977 and 1981. It was available to the Government presided over by Deputy FitzGerald in 1981-82. It was again available to the Government presided over by the Leader of the Opposition last year; and has now again been available to the present Government.

I would like to know, in the interests of the public and the Dáil, whose procedures we are going to discuss under the next item, where is the justification for setting up a joint committee to discuss yet again something which was thrashed out over 10 years ago by a committee as well qualified as can be, whose deliberations I do not believe can be improved on? If it is an attempt, by means of recruiting into the committee both sides of the House, to neutralise in advance any possible discussion or opposition there may be to whatever extent, that casts a reflection yet again on the way this House does its business. If there is no difference in ideology or in purpose or principle between the two main parties of this House in their approach to a matter of this kind, they should not be on opposite sides; and the people's business should be done in a more orderly way than this, whereby a serious problem — which nobody denies — is long-fingered for 13 or 14 years and is now to be remitted to yet another committee — but this time the committee will not contain the people or the expertise which Mr. Justice Kenny's committee contained.

Mr. Leyden

We are in total agreement with the setting up of this committee. It was proposed by our Administration. We hope that it will be set up as quickly as possible.

Mr. De Rossa

When this committee was set up originally we opposed the move by the Labour Party who had brought in a Bill seeking to have the price of land controlled. They accepted a compromise from the then Fianna Fáil Government to have this committee look at the matter. As the Labour Party are now in Government it would seem more appropriate that they reintroduce their Bill as a Government Bill in order to have this matter dealt with expeditiously. I do not often find myself in full agreement with Deputy Kelly, but I do so today. For that reason I oppose the restoration of this committee.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. Spring)

In relation to the setting up of the joint committee, I, as Minister for the Environment, feel that the proper method of having the matters included in the terms of reference in relation to the price of building land and the other matters is to have the matters discussed in committee and to bring them before the House. A time limit has been set on the deliberations of the committee. With due respect to Deputy Kelly and Deputy De Rossa who are forming a strange alliance this morning——

Mr. De Rossa

Fine Gael and the Labour Party are a strange alliance.

Mr. Spring

——the most satisfactory method is to get the facts and figures in relation to development land through the Joint Committee and to proceed with it in that manner.

Question put and agreed to.